How to Make Koloss without Spikes

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

This is a fairly simple theory. Could a Forger create a seal that would turn a person into a spikeless koloss? I believe that this would be a fairly simple change, especially if you are on Scadrial,  since you would simply need find a point in a person's history where they had the possibility of becoming a koloss. If they don't have one, simply introduce them to a band of koloss and have them refuse a transformation. This would give the Forger the needed probability. This method could be used to give you temporary koloss strength or maybe an instant koloss army, if you could create a generalized stamp.

[Yata he/him]

It's easy in theory but probably impossible in practice.

You will need to change the soul of the subject to provide more investiture than he/she already have...it's quite as hard as turn someone into a misting, well probably still harder.

Without considerate of course the "too different" Forgery's problem.

[SpeakoftheDeval]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

It's easy in theory but probably impossible in practice.

You will need to change the soul of the subject to provide more investiture than he/she already have...it's quite as hard as turn someone into a misting, well probably still harder.

Without considerate of course the "too different" Forgery's problem.

Well if you did it on Roshar could you use stormlight as the source of that investiture? Just temporarily?

[Spoolofwhool]

In theory, this is possible. However, using forgery to increase someone's innate investiture is practically difficult, due to the amount of investiture required. In addition, you would still need to be reapplying the stamp very often.

1 hour ago, MadhavDeval said:

Well if you did it on Roshar could you use stormlight as the source of that investiture? Just temporarily?

Theoretically, though that would likely be more difficult due to the connections you would have to make in order to make forgery utilize stormlight instead of the Dor. The Dor can provide the required investiture, I just believe that Forgery isn't designed to create a strong enough channel to draw that much investiture.

[Kaymyth she/her]

1 hour ago, MadhavDeval said:

Well if you did it on Roshar could you use stormlight as the source of that investiture? Just temporarily?

This would probably require that the target actually have access to Stormlight in order to work.  So you might be able to Forge a KR into a koloss, but not just an ordinary Rosharan.

By the same token, you might be able to Forge, say, a Misting into another Misting, but you cannot Forge a Misting into a Mistborn, because they just don't have the requisite amount of Investiture.

[Yata he/him]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

In theory, this is possible. However, using forgery to increase someone's innate investiture is practically difficult, due to the amount of investiture required. In addition, you would still need to be reapplying the stamp very often.

Theoretically, though that would likely be more difficult due to the connections you would have to make in order to make forgery utilize stormlight instead of the Dor. The Dor can provide the required investiture, I just believe that Forgery isn't designed to create a strong enough channel to draw that much investiture.

Like he said, probably be infused of Stormlight (and his Healing) would work aganist the Seal not helping it...but it is hard to say

[Exalted]

21 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

.By the same token, you might be able to Forge, say, a Misting into another Misting, but you cannot Forge a Misting into a Mistborn, because they just don't have the requisite amount of Investiture.

But Forging changes things in an object's past, right? Can you go back before birth and alter someone's Spiritweb so that they wield Investiture differently after they Snap?

[Kaymyth she/her]

Just now, miner3203 said:

But Forging changes things in an object's past, right? Can you go back before birth and alter someone's Spiritweb so that they wield Investiture differently after they Snap?

No, because you're still dealing with the Laws of Thermodynamics, here.  You can't create Investiture from nothing, and if Forgery is capable of adding Investiture to its target, it's not enough to create entirely new powers out of nothing.

I know we've seen a WoB about this flat-out stating that Forgery can't do this, but I'm at work and not really able to search for it right now.

[Exalted]

2 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

No, because you're still dealing with the Laws of Thermodynamics, here.  You can't create Investiture from nothing, and if Forgery is capable of adding Investiture to its target, it's not enough to create entirely new powers out of nothing.

I know we've seen a WoB about this flat-out stating that Forgery can't do this, but I'm at work and not really able to search for it right now.

My question wasn't about adding more powers; it was about altering Mistings--since the type of Misting they become is encoded into their Spiritweb, not based off of their life experiences (as opposed to, say, the KR), wouldn't it be impossible to Forge a Misting to alter their Misting type?

[Kaymyth she/her]

Just now, miner3203 said:

My question wasn't about adding more powers; it was about altering Mistings--since the type of Misting they become is encoded into their Spiritweb, not based off of their life experiences (as opposed to, say, the KR), wouldn't it be impossible to Forge a Misting to alter their Misting type?

Ah, OK.  I don't know that we have a definitive answer to that question, but I wouldn't think so.  We're looking at raw Investiture here, and Forging one type of Misting to another simply changes the pathway that Investiture travels through, not the amount of Investiture itself.  It wouldn't work for creating a full Mistborn, though, because that requires so much more Investiture than a Misting does.

[Exalted]

22 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

Ah, OK.  I don't know that we have a definitive answer to that question, but I wouldn't think so.  We're looking at raw Investiture here, and Forging one type of Misting to another simply changes the pathway that Investiture travels through, not the amount of Investiture itself.  It wouldn't work for creating a full Mistborn, though, because that requires so much more Investiture than a Misting does.

Hmm, okay, that makes sense.

Random thought: could you Forge a Savant to take away their Savantism when the drawbacks get to be too much and break the seal to regain the powers when needed? (I.e. can you remove Investiture with a Soulstamp and siphon it somewhere?)

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, miner3203 said:

Hmm, okay, that makes sense.

Random thought: could you Forge a Savant to take away their Savantism when the drawbacks get to be too much and break the seal to regain the powers when needed? (I.e. can you remove Investiture with a Soulstamp and siphon it somewhere?)

Probably would be more a matter of suppressing the excess investiture and its effect with more investiture than removing it. Probably wouldn't be that doable due to the investiture required, plus savants probably are hard to forge due to the excess investiture permeating them. 

[Sarevok]

Actually, I'm pretty sure I've seen a WOB saying you could Forge a normal person into an allomancer... *goes search*

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=forger+allomancer

 

Quote

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

So what’s probably going to happen here is that you’re going to rip off the Investiture you’ve put on your soul, and your own soul will have less damage. Now, the Spike is only gonna get the-- the Spike, you’re like ‘what will it do?’ It will do what you’ve been overwritten with, but remember, becoming an Allomancer requires so much energy, and things like--Ehh, it is theoretically possible in the Cosmere to rewrite yourself ‘you’re an allomancer’, someone Spikes you to get this. The Investiture doesn’t care that it was fake on you, you have managed to get that Investiture to work. Uhh, this is really tough. And really, like, you need Connection, and Investiture, but yes it rips off, and you have made a Spike that makes you an Allomancer, even though the person was a forger. But this is the kind of stuff that is like the thought experiments for physicists in the Cosmere as opposed to, yenno.

So I don't see any reason why you couldn't forge make a forgery to say "this person was turned into a Kolos at some time in the past."

Edited December 22, 2016 by Sarevok

[Spoolofwhool]

14 minutes ago, Sarevok said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure I've seen a WOB saying you could Forge a normal person into an allomancer... *goes search*

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=forger+allomancer

 

So I don't see any reason why you couldn't forge make a forgery to say "this person was turned into a Kolos at some time in the past."

Yes, it is definitely theoretically possible. However, practically, it wouldn't be due to the investiture required, since a koloss does possess more innate investiture than a regular Scandrian due to the hemalurgic spikes. Also, making it stick somehow would be difficult.