soyperson Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Okay, guys. Sometimes we all just need a little advice, right? Stuff that you don't want to ask on Random Stuff or Bad Day? Yeah. Perhaps you need opinions over what type of dog food to feed your pug overlord. Perhaps (totally hypothetically) your best friend has told you that they identify as genderfluid and they're confused and you're the only one they trust to talk to and you don't know what to say or how to help them because you've only ever experienced being a guy and you love them and wish you could help. Yeah let's use that second one as a totally hypothetical example. Input, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mestiv Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 (edited) I don't know what kind of advice or support would this hypothetical person require. So I'll just share my experience with a kind of similar matter. I know a person that is in the process of changing their gender. A male that's going to be a female. From what I see, the best support she gets is from other transgender people. They understand each other and know what she's going through. How could I help? By treating a friend as a friend, no matter the changes in appearance or switching from "he" to "she". How do you support someone that doesn't quite fit the "norm"? By treating them like everybody else, because they are not weirdos or something, they are people going through some hard times. So my advice for that hypothetical person is that he/she should find a group of gender fluid people, talk with them, make friends with them. My advice to you is to simply stay a friend, like you are now. Edited December 20, 2016 by Mestiv 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 1 hour ago, bleeder said: Perhaps (totally hypothetically) your best friend has told you that they identify as genderfluid and they're confused and you're the only one they trust to talk to and you don't know what to say or how to help them because you've only ever experienced being a guy and you love them and wish you could help. Yeah let's use that second one as a totally hypothetical example. Input, anyone? Essentially, your job would be to empathise and support, not provide answers. As they work out what being gender fluid means to them, you can best serve them as a trusted confident who, over the course of several conversations, helps them organize their thoughts and feelings about the matter. And sometimes, being a "safe person" to confide in is by far the most useful thing you can be. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 People are people. Gender is a social construct that has no bearing on reality, nor on how you should treat people (this is, of course, assuming gender to be a mode of behaviours as apposed to physiological sex). Frankly, I don't see much point in identifying as any gender, whether new gender spectrum or old gender binary, as it is and should be completely irrelevant to life. Physiological sex matters in terms of sexual attraction, propagation of the species, and in some religious practices. Gender doesn't matter at all. What does that mean? Treat them like your friend. Treat them as if they're normal - because they are. Everyone is different, and gender is a box used to describe certain behaviours. It's not really a relevant, important thing. Semi-relevant Sidetrack in spoilers Spoiler Sidetrack: why do people want to create new genders? It doesn't make sense to me. If gender isn't physiological sex, then it is an arbitrary pattern of behaviours. Why would you want to create a new arbitrary pattern of behaviour? Why make a new box to live in? Why not simply ignore or reject the patterns of behaviour and simply behave how you wish to behave? I fear say this as if I am firm in this position, but I am not. I am seriously curious, and if anyone has personal experience or has a close friend/relative who has personal experiences relevant to this discussion, I would greatly appreciate it if you explained this to me. Why would you want to create a new gender? If you don't like the box society assigned you at birth (and that is 100% fine! There's a lot of stupid, arbitrary crap in the gender boxes we're handed!), why create a new one? Isn't it better to reject the boxes altogether and simply live as you will? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manukos Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Let's say that have been in your completely hypothetical (and very stilish if I may add) shoes . A friend of mine told me the same thing about 4 months ago . I wasn't the first she opened up to but fifth or smt. And even though everyone likes to tease me for being feminine, I am a straight guy without the slightest inkling of what it is like being a woman. I kept acting the same , and told her that if she ever needed a someone to talk to or a wing man or smt I was always available ,I tried to avoid being pushy with questions . And later on she told me that I had been a big help . Right now what your 'hypothetical' friend needs isn't inspirational crem or reassurance that all is going to be fine she just wants her ... his ?... her friend who will be by her side without judging and that is provably why she opened up to you ,with time she will meet more gender fluid people like @Mestiv said and it will help her be more confident , but for now just be a friend And maybe you will spend less time in the forum so that I can finally spike someone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted December 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 4 hours ago, harambe said: And maybe you will spend less time in the forum so that I can finally spike someone Yeah no. Thanks for the help everyone. If you have "real life" problems, feel free to post them on here rather than bad day so that input can be given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 13 hours ago, bleeder said: Okay, guys. Sometimes we all just need a little advice, right? Stuff that you don't want to ask on Random Stuff or Bad Day? Yeah. Perhaps you need opinions over what type of dog food to feed your pug overlord. Perhaps (totally hypothetically) your best friend has told you that they identify as genderfluid and they're confused and you're the only one they trust to talk to and you don't know what to say or how to help them because you've only ever experienced being a guy and you love them and wish you could help. Yeah let's use that second one as a totally hypothetical example. Input, anyone? Your friend is by far not the only genderfluid person out there. Knowing that zie's not alone is a big thing. Really, the best thing to do is to ask your friend what they want you to do. Use gender-neutral pronouns? (zie/zir or their) Just listen when they need to vent? Let the person guide you, and do your best to support them in the way that they ask. 9 hours ago, Erunion (The Incorrigible) said: Semi-relevant Sidetrack in spoilers Reveal hidden contents Sidetrack: why do people want to create new genders? It doesn't make sense to me. If gender isn't physiological sex, then it is an arbitrary pattern of behaviours. Why would you want to create a new arbitrary pattern of behaviour? Why make a new box to live in? Why not simply ignore or reject the patterns of behaviour and simply behave how you wish to behave? I fear say this as if I am firm in this position, but I am not. I am seriously curious, and if anyone has personal experience or has a close friend/relative who has personal experiences relevant to this discussion, I would greatly appreciate it if you explained this to me. Why would you want to create a new gender? If you don't like the box society assigned you at birth (and that is 100% fine! There's a lot of stupid, arbitrary crap in the gender boxes we're handed!), why create a new one? Isn't it better to reject the boxes altogether and simply live as you will? Regarding the sidetrack: The thing is that society demands boxes. It isn't that non-conforming folks have an innate need to design new boxes, it's that attempting to exist outside the already-established ones is met with extreme resistance. Our culture as a whole insists that we belong in one box or another. So non-conforming people are told, "You HAVE to be in a box! I can't stand it if you're not in a box! Pick a box!" the natural psychological reaction is to say, "Fine, I'm making my OWN box!" And then they turn it into their personal blanket fort of safety against all of the chullheads out there who keep trying to shove them into the wrong box. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manukos Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Kaymyth said: Regarding the sidetrack: The thing is that society demands boxes. It isn't that non-conforming folks have an innate need to design new boxes, it's that attempting to exist outside the already-established ones is met with extreme resistance. Our culture as a whole insists that we belong in one box or another. So non-conforming people are told, "You HAVE to be in a box! I can't stand it if you're not in a box! Pick a box!" the natural psychological reaction is to say, "Fine, I'm making my OWN box!" And then they turn it into their personal blanket fort of safety against all of the chullheads out there who keep trying to shove them into the wrong box. Look , i am firmly against labeling , I believe that it tries to group people together when there is no reason or logic to do so. Everyone is completely different with his own wants, hates, and needs . This is also why I find the term LGBTQI+ so absurd, there is no reason to lump together people . from my conversations with friends of mine that see themselves as part of this group, I concluded that most of them wanted to either not feel alienated and alone or wanted a term to give to people so that they could be understood without much effort . Both very reasonable causes but they still seem kinda week to me . Maybe because they consider discriminatory and hateful reaction from the general public as the expected reasult , which unfortunately in many instances it is . maybe in an idealized world , free of discrimination labeling would be obsolete (though I doubt it ) but it does have some merits in the society we live in now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 @Kaymyth - thanks for the clarification on the sidetrack. It makes sense! A bit more sidetrack under spoilers Spoiler However, I'm still against boxes, and will continue to campaign for people simply being allowed to be themselves without having to relable themselves! Down with labels! Go be people! But I'm also in a position where none of this personally affects me - I am physiologically male and very few of my behaviours are considered odd for the male 'gender'. So all my campaign here is intellectual; it's not based on personal experience or practical need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Warning: philosophical wool-gathering and Opinions below! Read at your own risk! Here's the thing - humans are, evolutionarily speaking, still at a tribal cavepeople level. Most of our brain wiring is still set to a time when we lived in small groups of people, hunting and gathering, and depending on our tribe for survival. People from other groups were possibly allies, possibly enemies, and we had to treat them with caution until we knew for sure. So it was very beneficial for people to automatically separate people into "Us" and "Them". "Us" were the safe people. Friends, family, allies. Maybe Cousin Ogg was kind of a jerk, but we knew that when the chips were down, he'd pick up a club and fight for the tribe alongside us. "Them" were the the outsiders. Others. We might have to fight them for resources, though if we're lucky maybe they're willing to trade peacefully instead. But it still served us to think of them as Them, just in case conflict someday brewed. These days, the world has a lot more people in it. And we can talk to those people in ways that weren't possible even just a few decades ago. Suddenly Us is huge, and Them is even bigger, and maybe even harder to separate out. But our brains are only wired to put a hundred or so people into the Us category, which is a problem when even our city of origin can contain millions. So our brains try to compensate by narrowing down the Us. Racism, sexism, classism, nationalism - these are all side effects of our minds trying to whittle down to a relatable Us to care about and pare out the Them who are relegated to a place of less importance. Putting people in boxes is a natural human behavior. It's not necessarily a good behavior, or a desirable one, but it's an understandable one. And particularly for marginalized people, it's important for them to be able to find others like them so that they are not alone. We are a social species. Individuals need to have an Us, or they flounder. But the species as a whole needs stop demonizing all of the Thems, or we're eventually going to self-destruct. Our social, cultural, and technological development is accelerating at blinding speed, and our biological evolution doesn't have a chance of keeping up. Worse, enough people still don't even believe in evolution that addressing the issue is extremely difficult. How do you convince someone that they are reacting to globalization based on instinctive behavior when accepting that instinctive behavior even exists undermines their very worldview? How can you even begin to fix society's problems when a significant portion of that society has a vested interest in disbelieving in the source of those problems? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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