Nicrosil and the storage of Investiture

[+robardin he/him]

On 12/17/2016 at 0:58 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

I have proposed a theory on why multiple times in response to your questioning about it. Is there anything in my theory that you find blatantly incorrect or are you just ignoring it?

OK now I confess to being confused. I do remember you posting something along these lines, but unless it was in another thread I can't find it, because re-scanning the several posts you made above mine, I see you writing:

Quote

The southern medallions are all unkeyed, meaning that the feruchemist had no identity when creating them. In addition, the nicrosil sections are all unsealed somehow, meaning that they have been changed so that anyone, not just a Soulbearer ferring, can tap them. We don't know how, but it has been hinted that it is an additional process.

...based on how the Southern with Wax described the process, however that process works, interference is caused if someone tries to wear more than one medallion, indicating that the limited power each gives is likely keyed to that specific medallion.

 

Each medallion is subjected to a process which gives someone without nicrosil feruchemy to tap the nicrosilmind to grant the powers over the other section. My guess is that limited power which each medallion grants is keyed to each medallion, and wearing multiple medallions interfere with each other, because the conflicted limited powers they're each trying to give.

"We don't know how" and "it's an additional process" and "however that process works, interference is caused if someone tries to wear more than one medallion", and "each medallion ... gives someone without nicrosil feruchemy the ability to tap it to get the Feruchemical ability to access the other section" (paraphrasing) is basically all I've come up with myself, as well.

You then added a guess that "limited power which each medallion grants is keyed to each medallion" as a reason for multiple-medallion-wearing interference, which I don't get what you mean.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

22 minutes ago, robardin said:

You then added a guess that "limited power which each medallion grants is keyed to each medallion" as a reason for multiple-medallion-wearing interference, which I don't get what you mean.

Basically what I'm saying is that somehow, each medallion gives the wearer the power to tap a nicrosilmind in order to access the other powers the medallion, a method which we don't know about which is somehow externally granting them a feruchemical power. My theory is that each nicrosilmind of a medallion has been altered so that it changes the holder somehow so that they are able to tap the nicrosilmind of that medallion. They aren't given a general nicrosilmind ability, just one which allows them to tap the specific power in that specific medallion. Furthermore, the difficulties encountered in either raising the number of powers a medallion gives past three or wearing multiple medallions stem from the unsealing of the medallions. Increasing the number of powers requires that the unsealing method simultaneously allows someone to tap all the powers in the medallion, and the complexity increases with the number of powers. Wearing multiple medallions results in each one granting its wearer the limited nicrosil ability to tap it, and the multiple being applied at once essentially interfere with each other and cancel out, because each one is trying to connect the wearer to itself, leaving the wearer unable to tap from the nicrosilmind of any of them, therefore rendering the medallions useless. 

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

 My theory is that each nicrosilmind of a medallion has been altered so that it changes the holder somehow so that they are able to tap the nicrosilmind of that medallion. They aren't given a general nicrosilmind ability, just one which allows them to tap the specific power in that specific medallion. Furthermore, the difficulties encountered in either raising the number of powers a medallion gives past three or wearing multiple medallions stem from the unsealing of the medallions. ... Wearing multiple medallions results in each one granting its wearer the limited nicrosil ability to tap it, and the multiple being applied at once essentially interfere with each other and cancel out, because each one is trying to connect the wearer to itself, leaving the wearer unable to tap from the nicrosilmind of any of them, therefore rendering the medallions useless. 

Hm. So the storing of Investiture would be different from storing any other Feruchemical attribute into a metalmind? It would lack Identity - courtesy of the shunting to an aluminummind - but tapping different nicrosilminds would "interfere" with each other? OK, but that only explains the interference on usage, not the difficulty in creation.

How come more than one kind of Investiture can be stored in the same aluminummind, unlike multiple senses in the same tinmind, as apparently is the case? And why is it only possible for a Fullborn to create something like the Bands?

Well, let's see. The Bands of Mourning are composed of "16 bands of different metals melded together" into a spearhead, so if they grant all 16 Feruchemical and Allomantic powers, they must all be in the same nicrosilmind, and the other 15 bands are the pre-filled metalminds for the non-Nicrosil Feruchemical attributes.

Maybe filling a nicrosilmind isn't like filling a specific sense into a tinmind, but storing the Feruchemist's entire "spiritweb" of Feruchemy (if I'm using that term right). Hemalurgy can only steal 1 of 16 Allomantic or Feruchemical abilities at a time with a spike, but in this case nothing is being "stolen", it's the Feruchemist storing his own mojo, and it stands to reason his mojo is an all-or-nothing type affair, that's part of what makes it HIS mojo. Shunt off the Identity portion of the mojo with the aluminummind trick, and now you're storing pure Full Feruchemy mojo without the nametag.

As for the two-power medallions - unlike the Bands, they definitely store the powers in SEPARATE (multiple) rings. When Wax first talks to Allik about them, bolding mine:

Quote

"Investiture," Waxillium said. "This inner ring is nicrosil. You tap it, and it grants you Investiture - turning you into a temporary Feruchemist who has the ability to fill a metalmind with weight." He held up the medallion. "The iron on this is for convenience, right? ... What's this other ring built into the medallion?"

"That grants the warmth," Allik said. "It is a grand combination - two attributes, from separate rings. Took us long to make these work, yah? The one I wear now, also grants two. Weight and Connection. I've seen medallions with three. Twice in my life only. Every attempt at four has failed."

...

"So to create one with multiple powers..."

"You must be very skilled," Allik said. "More skilled than any who has lived among us. Or..." He chucked. "Or you'd have to have all the powers, rather than adding yours to the medallion, then passing it to another to have it added to!"

The "other ring" that "grants the warmth" must be another "separate ring" of nicrosil, granting the ability to tap the brassmind.

Evidently it takes great skill to put two nicrosil rings with different kinds of Investiture so close to each other - even more for three, prohibitively so for four or more - due to "interference", yet using even two medallions interfere with each other. Because otherwise they wouldn't have to create 2 or 3 ring medallions in the first place, if the interference limited a person to using up to 3 Identity-less nicrosilminds at the same time, they could just do that with three separate medallions (each of one ring), right?

Edited December 18, 2016 by robardin

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Maybe filling a nicrosilmind isn't like filling a specific sense into a tinmind, but storing the Feruchemist's entire "spiritweb" of Feruchemy (if I'm using that term right). Hemalurgy can only steal 1 of 16 Allomantic or Feruchemical abilities at a time with a spike, but in this case nothing is being "stolen", it's the Feruchemist storing his own mojo, and it stands to reason his mojo is an all-or-nothing type affair, that's part of what makes it HIS mojo. Shunt off the Identity portion of the mojo with the aluminummind trick, and now you're storing pure Full Feruchemy mojo without the nametag.

Mistborn isn't a power, but a collection of powers which must be stored separately in order to enhance. I doubt that full feruchemy is any more different, in that you have to store each power individually in order to enhance its effects. 

2 hours ago, robardin said:

As for the two-power medallions - unlike the Bands, they definitely store the powers in SEPARATE (multiple) rings. When Wax first talks to Allik about them, bolding mine:

Good point. I misremembered the passage. Thought he was just referring to a brass ring, not a brass and nicrosil ring. 

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Evidently it takes great skill to put two nicrosil rings with different kinds of Investiture so close to each other - even more for three, prohibitively so for four or more - due to "interference", yet using even two medallions interfere with each other. Because otherwise they wouldn't have to create 2 or 3 ring medallions in the first place, if the interference limited a person to using up to 3 Identity-less nicrosilminds at the same time, they could just do that with three separate medallions (each of one ring), right?

My guess is that when you link multiple rings together like that, the unsealing process is applied afterwards for the entire set. Using two different medallions, which underwent separate sealing processes creates interference, but at the same time, trying to unseal multiple nicrosilminds linked together in order to have the medallion grant all the powers is difficult. 

[Yata he/him]

I still think the three power limitation is about an Identity-problem, as far as we know in the Cosmerethe only "interference" is dictate exactly by the Identity.

It's possible the limitation comes from a weak F-Allomancy (if it's gifted directly or indirectly with Hemalurgy), this mean you can't store ALL your Identity, but only a great amount of it. For a couple of power the cumulative Identity of all the donors isn't a problem but beyond a certain threeshold it will be too much to handle.

EDIT: Probably my idea has some problems, a Trueself would be able to use almost all the medallion he wants...but I think the Southern will figure out very soon if this was the case (also if this may conncet with the Theory of "You can't create a Medallion that gift F-Alluminium")

Edited December 19, 2016 by Yata