The Identity of the Unmade

[VirtuousTraveller]

So after listening to Eshonai's interludes, I want to throw an idea out for discussion:

The voidbringers are the Unmade.  They are counterparts of the Heralds.

Honor originally chose the 10 Heralds and gave them 10 invested weapons, splinters, we call the Honorblades.

 

Spren saw this and mimicked it, creating surgebinders (the Knights Radiant) via the Nahel Bond.

 

Odium originally splintered himself into the Unmade and gave them power that we do not yet understand.  It is likely that there are 9 Unmade, as Braize (where Odium is) is 9-centric in contrast to the 10-centric cultures of Roshar (where Honor was).

 

Spren saw this and mimicked it, creating what mankind refers to as "voidbringers," but are really things like thunderclasts and the stormform Parshendi.  After all, the Parshendi obtain powers by bonding with spren, transforming them into something different, similar yet not the same as how spren bond with the surgebinding Knights Radiant.

 

So the original battle between Honor's Heralds and Odium's Unmade became more intense as spren added men (and Parshendi) to both sides of the conflict, though this seems like an unintended occurrence by both Honor and Odium.  Desolations became worse and more frequent as the spren (and the inhabitants of Roshar) became more involved.

 

Eshonai fears bringing their gods back by using the ancient powers, gods she refers to as the Unmade (WoR).

 

The Parshendi are determined to bring back the ancient powers to combat humans, especially because they see the humans have their ancient powers of surgebinding again.  They fear the reprocusions of the Unmades' return (possibly because they, the "last legion," abandoned the Unmade by refusing to fight in the distant past).  They know they will lose control as the Unmade possess them (in a way) and use them against their will.

 

It's like the presence of too much of Honor's investiture (i.e. the Heralds, surgebinding) triggers the release of Odium's investiture (i.e. the Unmade, the "ancient power spren" of the Parshendi).  In the past, Honor was able to regulate how quickly men were able to rise through the oaths and take on more of his investiture, which perhaps slowed the return of Odium and his agents.  It's possible that this is what Nale fears - that men will too quickly summon Honor's investiture, which would trigger another Desolation.

 

Perhaps this is what triggered the Recreance, that men chose to abandon the investiture of Honor in hopes of preventing the scale from tipping enough to open the gateway for Odium's return.

 

Questions Still Unanswered

 

How would this conflict end?  The Heralds and Unmade return to their place (whatever torture they endure between desolations)?  How?  Did Honor and Odium agree that if one side won, that the game board (Roshar) would be reset?  What does it mean to win a desolation?

 

Since only 1 Herald returned to torture, how did the other 9 Heralds manage to keep the balance of investiture steady?  The 9 abandoned their Honorblades, so does this mean they lost their connection with Honor?

 

Did all of the Unmade return to torture (or their parallel place) at the end of the last desolation?  It seems that at least one is still active (or recently became active) in Alethkar (i.e. The Thrill) and another is influencing the Death Rattles.  Is Braize 9-centric because 9 Heralds stayed on Roshar or was this an original condition of Honor and Odium's arraignment?

 

Where does Cultivation fit into any of this?

 

What are your thoughts?

Edited December 8, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[dvoraen]

This isn't going to be super organized of a response, so bear with me. >.>

 

- The Heralds vs. the Unmade feels like a chicken-or-the-egg kind of question.  I'd give a great deal for someone to get an answer about this from Brandon, but I'm currently putting money down on the Unmade being born as a result of and/or part of the Oathpact.

- The idea of some spren (likely the Voidspren) mimicking the Unmade would make a lot of things make sense.  Until we start getting more info about the ancient world(s) in the time before Surgebinders, and Voidbinding in general, it's hard to say whether this is truly the case or not, or if the Voidspren bonds with Listeners is a result of the Unmade effectively enslaving them.

- Regarding the Unmade's presence, I thought for a long time that they either went dormant and/or departed from Roshar outside of Desolations, but if Dalinar felt the Thrill in his younger years, that makes it clear that at least Nergaoul did not leave Roshar after Aharietiam.  Whether the others did or not is debatable, but I'm now inclined to say they do not.  Edgedancer implies a few things I'm not going to specify on this forum.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, dvoraen said:

- Regarding the Unmade's presence, I thought for a long time that they either went dormant and/or departed from Roshar outside of Desolations, but if Dalinar felt the Thrill in his younger years, that makes it clear that at least Nergaoul did not leave Roshar after Aharietiam.  Whether the others did or not is debatable, but I'm now inclined to say they do not.  Edgedancer implies a few things I'm not going to specify on this forum.

According to WoB, the Thrill and the Death rattles began at the same time, around the time when Gavilar started exploring the Shattered Plain. I'm guessing that that was when the Unmade became active on Roshar ago, likely signalling the upcoming True Desolation.

[dvoraen]

4 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

According to WoB, the Thrill and the Death rattles began at the same time, around the time when Gavilar started exploring the Shattered Plain. I'm guessing that that was when the Unmade became active on Roshar ago, likely signalling the upcoming True Desolation.

The timeline is what troubles me, because if the Thrill was present BEFORE this expedtion*, then there's something else going on too.

I still contest that this particular sign is when Taln actually broke, though, even if "Taln" showed up at Kholinar several years after these Unmade-sourced abilities began occurring.

 

(* DISCLAIMER - I have not been able to read the released flashbacks of Dalinar, so all the info. on them I have is second hand, particularly when they occurred.)

Edited December 9, 2016 by dvoraen

[VirtuousTraveller]

It just seems so odd for the spren to have involved themselves at all.  Why did they care what Honor was doing with the Heralds?  We're talking about 10 individuals on a planet filled with a rich and diverse ecosystem - why "mimic" this Honorblade-Herald model?  What motivation would they have to do this?  Curiosity?  Humor?  Child-like innocence?

It seems that the spren pulled mankind (and likely the Listeners) into a war that didn't involve them in the first place.  Honor and Odium were the main players.  Why bring people into it?

[Spoolofwhool]

22 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

It just seems so odd for the spren to have involved themselves at all.  Why did they care what Honor was doing with the Heralds?  We're talking about 10 individuals on a planet filled with a rich and diverse ecosystem - why "mimic" this Honorblade-Herald model?  What motivation would they have to do this?  Curiosity?  Humor?  Child-like innocence?

It seems that the spren pulled mankind (and likely the Listeners) into a war that didn't involve them in the first place.  Honor and Odium were the main players.  Why bring people into it?

I don't understand. The spren were trying to help humanity survive weren't they? Regardless of what they did, the Desolations, by all accounts, would have happened anyways.

On 12/8/2016 at 8:56 PM, dvoraen said:

The timeline is what troubles me, because if the Thrill was present BEFORE this expedtion*, then there's something else going on too.

I still contest that this particular sign is when Taln actually broke, though, even if "Taln" showed up at Kholinar several years after these Unmade-sourced abilities began occurring.

 

(* DISCLAIMER - I have not been able to read the released flashbacks of Dalinar, so all the info. on them I have is second hand, particularly when they occurred.)

Maybe that's what Hoid meant when he said that the man called Taln was too late. He broke years ago, yet something slowed his arrival to Roshar, so he didn't arrive as soon as events began in preparation for the Desolation, but only months before the Final Desolation.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[VirtuousTraveller]

12 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't understand. The spren were trying to help humanity survive weren't they? Regardless of what they did, the Desolations, by all accounts, would have happened anyways.

That's what I can't surmise.  Other than the whole "mimicking" the Honorblade-Herald bond, I can't find a quote that supports the idea that spren created the Nahel bond with the purpose of helping humans fight in the desolations.  If someone has a citation that supports that idea from TWoK, WoR, or a WoB, please speak now!

[Spoolofwhool]

24 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

That's what I can't surmise.  Other than the whole "mimicking" the Honorblade-Herald bond, I can't find a quote that supports the idea that spren created the Nahel bond with the purpose of helping humans fight in the desolations.  If someone has a citation that supports that idea from TWoK, WoR, or a WoB, please speak now!

I get it. So your opinion is that the Desolations began because the spren began bonding? Interesting thought. I've never really thought of it that way. I disagree with that honestly, because in a WoB indicates that the start of a Desolation is tied to the Heralds. That indicates to me that everything started as a result of the Heralds and the Knight Radiants are added on. It's still possible that the KRs existed before the Desolations began, but I don't see why the spren would do what they did unless there was some serious incentive.

[VirtuousTraveller]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

So your opinion is that the Desolations began because the spren began bonding? Interesting thought. I've never really thought of it that way. I disagree with that honestly, because in a WoB indicates that the start of a Desolation is tied to the Heralds. That indicates to me that everything started as a result of the Heralds and the Knight Radiants are added on. It's still possible that the KRs existed before the Desolations began, but I don't see why the spren would do what they did unless there was some serious incentive.

Oh no, I think the desolations were originally a part of whatever Honor and Odium came up with forever ago.  I think they've become worse and more frequent (up until 4,500 years ago when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact) because of the spren's interference with the original agreement between the gods.

Imagine you're Odium and after a span of time, you see that the Heralds return to Roshar.  You start licking you lips in anticipation, knowing you get the chance to unleash your wrath, only to find out that instead of the Heralds, now you're dealing with hundreds (if not thousands) of invested warriors (the KR) as well.  Honor looks at you and shrugs, saying he didn't do this and "how is it my fault if these spren decided to get involved?"

Odium now really wants to make things bad, so through the power of the Unmade he enslaves voidspren (or more likely, he corrupts regular spren, who then become known as voidspren) who makes things worse.  After all, Dalinar learns in one of his visions that Sja-anat causes a strange effect to any spren it touches.

With the addition of humans (and the Listeners, who are claimed by corrupted spren, allowing Odium more direct engagement in the desolation than before), things get a lot worse.

Edited December 11, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

Oh no, I think the desolations were originally a part of whatever Honor and Odium came up with forever ago.  I think they've become worse and more frequent (up until 4,500 years ago when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact) because of the spren's interference with the original agreement between the gods.

Imagine you're Odium and after a span of time, you see that the Heralds return to Roshar.  You start licking you lips in anticipation, knowing you get the chance to unleash your wrath, only to find out that instead of the Heralds, now you're dealing with hundreds (if not thousands) of invested warriors (the KR) as well.  Honor looks at you and shrugs, saying he didn't do this and "how is it my fault if these spren decided to get involved?"

Odium now really wants to make things bad, so through the power of the Unmade he enslaves voidspren (or more likely, he corrupts regular spren, who then become known as voidspren) who makes things worse.  After all, Dalinar learns in one of his visions that Sja-anat causes a strange effect to any spren it touches.

With the addition of humans (and the Listeners, who are claimed by corrupted spren, allowing Odium more direct engagement in the desolation than before), things get a lot worse.

Right. And by this timeline, you don't think the spren decided to create the KR to give humanity a helping hand during the Desolations, unaware that it would cause things to become worse? I mean yes, there is no direct proof, but from what I recall of the sprens now, Pattern, Wyndle, and Syl, they all said something along the lines of coming to help in what was coming, the True Desolation. That seems to be as a result of a precedent, because the spren helped humanity during the previous Desolations as well, by forming the KR.

[Shlee]

 

23 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

It just seems so odd for the spren to have involved themselves at all.  Why did they care what Honor was doing with the Heralds?  We're talking about 10 individuals on a planet filled with a rich and diverse ecosystem - why "mimic" this Honorblade-Herald model?  What motivation would they have to do this?  Curiosity?  Humor?  Child-like innocence?

It seems that the spren pulled mankind (and likely the Listeners) into a war that didn't involve them in the first place.  Honor and Odium were the main players.  Why bring people into it?

I don't find their involvement odd at all. We know that at least one of what we think is an Unmade, Sja-Anat can do something weird to spren, from one of Dalinar's visions. It's entirely possible that the Desolations are just as dangerous to the spren as to the humans. So working together makes sense, if both of your "species" are being threatened by an outside foe:

Quote

“Fine,” Dalinar said. “Just worried. I mean, I don’t even really know what we’re looking for.”
“A spren that doesn’t act like it should,” the man said. “Keep your eyes open. Once Sja-anat touches a spren, it acts strange. Call attention to anything you see.”

 

[dvoraen]

Basically, what Shlee said, but I'm going to state it in a different way:

- Nahel spren have been fairly clear that they likely would not be as sentient or thought-capable as they are if humans were extinct.  Thus, they have an ulterior, self-preserving motive in helping sapient life on Roshar survive, because they themselves will be little more than mindless forces otherwise.

(I also think that the Cognitive Realm is in just as much danger as the Physical during a Desolation.)

[emailanimal]

On 12/8/2016 at 0:36 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

Honor originally chose the 10 Heralds and gave them 10 invested weapons, splinters, we call the Honorblades.

 

Heralds make no sense to me without the presence of the outside threat. They must've been empaneled  in response to the threat of Odium. Whether the initial threat from Odium involved the Unmade or not.

 

On 12/8/2016 at 0:36 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

The Parshendi are determined to bring back the ancient powers to combat humans, especially because they see the humans have their ancient powers of surgebinding again.

I think there is more to that. The Parshendi seemed to be specifically afraid that Gavilar and company possessed the means of bringing back the voidspren which would force the listeners into stormform.  The thing Gavilar gives Szeth appears to be a trapped voidspren, no?  Gavilar basically described to the Parshendi his plan that they knew would doom them. After which they very promptly proceeded to doom themselves anyway, but that is tangential.

 

On 12/11/2016 at 5:11 AM, VirtuousTraveller said:

(or more likely, he corrupts regular spren, who then become known as voidspren)

I think it is more likely that Odium's influence caused appearance of certain spren that were not present on Roshar before.

[Krandacth]

7 hours ago, emailanimal said:

I think it is more likely that Odium's influence caused appearance of certain spren that were not present on Roshar before.

Based on the wording of the vision in the Purelake, I think it more likely that Sja-anat does corrupt existing spren (the alternative being that some voidspren disguise themselves like the native variety, or just look very like them anyway... but given that it was a Radiant talking I think the statement is more likely to be accurate than not). However, I don't think those corrupted spren are voidspren.  In the same way that most spren are not Honor- or Cultivationspren (i.e. any spren that is a Splinter of Honor or Cultivation), I expect voidspren to be higher order spren that are Splinters of Odium that can bond with people to produce voidbinding (which Stormform is not, as we have a WoB that we haven't seen an example of it yet). These would have "not [been] present on Roshar before", as you say.

Note that no mention is made of an odd dark glow in the gem that Eshonai uses to attain Stormform. With my theory, this would be because corrupted spren are still fundamentally the same (they don't become Splinters of Odium), but have been coerced to his (or Sja-anat's) will. The sphere that Gavilar had, on the other hand, would have held a true voidspren.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Krandacth

[emailanimal]

7 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Based on the wording of the vision in the Purelake, I think it more likely that Sja-anat does corrupt existing spren

Gotta reread it tonight. Will respond to the rest afterwards.

[VirtuousTraveller]

So as I'm listening through Words of Radiance, an interesting phrase jumped out to me:

Quote

“But the alternative? Dabbling in things we shouldn’t, things that might bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.”

-Eshonai, Words of Radiance (Interlude 4 - The Last Legion)

Quote

Shallan jumped back. The word was mangled by the creature’s inhuman voice, but it was recognizable. “A Voidbringer!” she hissed, safehand to her chest. “An animal that speaks!  You’ll bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.”

-Shallan, Words of Radiance (Chapter 45 - Middlefest)

So we know there's a lot about the religious histories of Roshar that are still unknown, but some things we can surmise as facts:

1.  The Unmade are real beings, splinters of Odium, and the gods of the Listeners/Parshendi.

2.  These Unmade played a part in the desolations of the past on behalf of Odium.

3.  As of The Way of Kings, one of the brightest and most learned scholars of the day (Jasnah) viewed the Unmade as fabrications of folklore (as the last desolation ended 4,500 years ago, leaving a lot of time for history to be skewed).

Quote

The Unmade were obviously fabrications of folklore. Curiously, most were not considered individuals, but instead personifications of kinds of destruction.

-Jasnah, The Way of Kings (Chapter 45 epigraph)

So, isn't it strange that both the Parshendi (Eshonai) and a Human/Veden (Shallan) would use the exact same expression in reference to these creatures of supposed folklore?  The Parshendi reference makes sense (the eyes of the Unmade are associated with voidspren that force Parshendi to do things against their will), but I'm not sure I understand Shallan's use of the phrase.  Why would this idiom exist in both languages and cultures?

Moving further into Words of Radiance, we get some insight from Mr. T's Diagram:

Quote

The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however.

-The Diagram, Words of Radiance (Chapter 81 epigraph)

So, do the Unmade just float around until something draws their attention, at which point they go Odium-Crap Crazy on things?  Perhaps like other spren, they need a bond with life in the Physical Realm to think?  Do they exist outside of desolations on Roshar in this strange mindless stage, but regain sentience as a desolation arrives?  Could this be the religious teaching background that we don't quite have yet that could explain the strange culture-spanning idiom?

[dvoraen]

@VirtuousTraveller There's also this scene, which I completely misread my first time through.  I think it's pretty clear this is what is meant by "the eyes of the Unmade":

Quote

...Something was out there, in the dark chaos of the highstorm. It thrashed and pounded at the window, wanting in.

Light flashed out there, glistening through the drops of water. Another flash.

Then the light stayed. Steady, like glowing spheres, just outside. Faintly red. For some reason he couldn't explain, Kaladin had the impression of eyes.

(WoR, hb, p286)

As far as Shallan goes, I think it ties into the folklore that Jasnah researched (as part of her Voidbringer study) and dismissed as 'just folklore'.  Why she went digging into the Unmade and summarily dismissed them is one of my major questions, and implicitly reinforces the overall inactivity of the Unmade outside a Desolation period. That said, I'm pretty sure Jasnah discovered how wrong she was about the Unmade during her Cognitive adventure.

Edited December 23, 2016 by dvoraen