Feminism

[Silverblade5 he/him]

This topic came up during the election fallout. It got heated then. Since there's been a chance for things to cool, I figured I'd give us a chance to discuss it properly and civilly.

First, definitions (personal, not dictionary)

Feminist: A person who holds the ideals of men and women equality and the removal of sex based discrimination

Rad Fem: A person who pushes for SELECTIVE equality, and overall women superiority. Tends to manufacture an image of sexism for people who don't agree with them. In relationships, has a tendency to leave it all up to the man, then complain when it falls apart. When they are pursuing equality, they're dragging down men as much as they uplift women.

Analogy: A feminist would try to add a ramp to give access to people in wheelchairs. The rad fem might try to remove the stairs because they might offend the people in wheelchairs.

Before I go any further, I want to make something clear. I do not want to see people trying to prove their side of the debate or disprove the other side. What I want is for people on each side to walk away understanding the other side's perspective. I want men to walk away understanding that not every single feminist is a rad fem. I want women to walk away understanding that correlation does NOT equal causation. While many problems in the world are cause by men, not all of them are. Many can have women equally responsible, and do. Equality means people of both sexes are held to the same standard. It does not mean one side trying to get above the other, regardless of which one it is.

Perspective of an author I respect and follow:

Quote

 

Spoiler

 

Hey folks...

I've seen a surge of new readers into Five Star Service of late. This surge was thanks in large part to Demon Eyes Laharl, who plugged my story in a blog post. I'm very grateful for all the new readership he's brought me, as well as his willingness to incorporate my work into the Gentlemanverse canon. However, a couple comments have cropped up of late challenging the last chapter, which is actually one of my favorites. The main sticking point seems to be my negative portrayal of feminism, as stated by Five Stars.

Well, then folks... seems I have some explaining to do. Get ready for a long-winded reply, one that's been in the works for a while.

 

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Let me say up front, I am not opposed to the idea of feminism. I am opposed to what feminism, or at least its self-described leadership and most vocal supporters, has become--a male-hating movement that seeks to emasculate men and infantilize women. And believe me, there is plenty of evidence to support such a claim.

Modern Feminism

Whatever it was in the past, feminism has become a movement that reflexively and viciously attacks anyone who dares to suggest that maybe on-demand abortion or forcing religious groups to fund contraception isn't a good thing.

It's a movement that screams "war on women" when anyone suggests that perhaps abortion rules need to be tightened and women should be responsible for their own sex lives. It's a movement that claims 'rape culture' and a 'sexual assault crisis' over an utterly ridiculous and easily debunked claim that says 1 in 5 women are raped at college, and then demands colleges impose these hideously draconian speech and conduct codes in response, two things that are the antithesis of what college and liberal thought are supposed to be about.

And that's to say nothing about 'safe spaces', 'microaggressions', or 'trigger warnings' which also seem to be the movement hallmarks. I'm not going to explain them; if you want to know how ridiculous they are, just look them up.

Speech and Conduct Codes

These codes, which have been adapted by many colleges and universities under U.S. government pressure, basically make it so that it's all on the man and the woman is never responsible for anything. Codes that presume the male is always guilty and offer little in the way of due process or recourse for a rape or even sexual harassment accusation. Simply an accusation is often enough to get you expelled from school, and you can't fight back against your accuser, who is often guaranteed privacy. With many of these codes, the girl can say yes and then for whatever reason regret it later, decide because she had a drink or two was 'incapacitated' and then scream rape.

There's already a long list of people this is happened to, many of whom are now suing their universities for being railroaded. But that aside, please tell me folks... do you seriously think guys never regret a drunken encounter? And how is it that if two people are equally incapacitated by alcohol, it's still the guy's fault?

Many feminists would call you anti-women just for posing those questions. Many do.

Personal Reasons

I have more reason than most to dislike this movement.

1) Three years ago, a long-time female friend who identified as feminist dumped me in the most immature and petulant manner imaginable for daring to say on Facebook there was no "War on Women", and several others followed in her stead, costing me most of my friends. I got shunned and attacked just for daring to challenge that groupthink and I'm still very angry and bitter about it.

2) I'm also an alumni of the University of Virginia, which you may remember was in the news for a fraternity gang rape luridly (and very poorly) reported by Rolling Stone magazine... a rape that never happened.

Think about this: a young college student claims she was gang-raped in a frat house on a table covered with broken glass as part of a fraternity initiation rite. Now, even a moment's consideration should tell you that can't possibly be true. You're seriously going to claim that none of the frat brothers who participated in such a ritual over the years ever had an attack of conscience? That none of the victims ever reported it? That nobody was ever injured and ended up in the hospital because of it? Come on.

No Evidence

Just as there's no evidence that a 'rape culture' or a 'sexual assault crisis' actually exists on college campuses, the Virginia State Police just announced recently there was no evidence to support her accusation--she didn't have injuries that would match her claims, there was no party on the night she said, her statements were contradicted by her own friends, and the frat brother she claimed to have met doesn't exist. But that didn't stop feminists and their allies from seizing on this as a prime example of 'rape culture' and demanding nationwide accountability for something that didn't even happen.

Rape victims never lie? This one did, and ruined many lives by doing so. The entire fraternity scene at UVA ended up suspended, the frat in question under siege from protestors who vandalized their house and forced the frat brothers to flee campus, and the college president imposed collective punishment on the entire Greek scene for something that didn't happen, and refused to rescind it even after they were proven innocent, claiming it was a 'teachable moment' for a problem that doesn't storming exist.

The magazine was excoriated for total reporting failure by the Columbia Journalism Review, and now faces a $7.5 million dollar defamation lawsuit. But there's no punishment for the accuser, and no punishment for the article writer, who didn't even perform the most basic of fact-checking. She had an agenda and found a story that would advance it. That's all that mattered to her, and to far too many who call themselves feminist. As long as it advances their narrative, it's okay no matter who they hurt in the process--particularly if they're just hurting males.

A Symptom of a Greater Sickness

I'm sorry to say, this is not an isolated incident. It's been happening in various forms all over the country, in colleges and even state legislatures. California just passed a badly misnamed "yes means yes" law which basically means that the guy has to get permission AT EACH STAGE of sex, and the girl can still change her mind later for just about any reason she wants.

This isn't just political correctness gone wild, this is a movement that actively seeks to demonize and emasculate men. It starts with an assumption that all men are potential rapists, and women are always victims, always to be believed and never at fault for anything--that's not 'equality' by any definition of the word. There's already a long trail of ruined lives and careers out there this thinking has caused. Like I said, I'm all for gender equality, but I'm sorry, that's not what they're seeking. Not anymore.

Modern feminism is not a movement about building up, it's about tearing down.

Final Word:

My final word is this: you don't have be a feminist to be pro-woman, and opposing certain feminist tenets doesn't make you anti-woman. What I am is pro-personal responsibility and pro-free speech, pro due-process and pro-presumption of innocence... especially for inflammatory accusations like rape that can ruin lives and reputations regardless of whether it's true.

I think people should be allowed to speak their minds without fear of retribution and people, male or female should be held accountable for their choices and actions, even if they regret it the next day. No more 'safe spaces', no 'microaggressions' or 'trigger warnings', no misnamed 'yes means yes' laws, and no reflexive demonization or smearing as 'anti-woman' those who point out the excesses of a movement that at this point is doing far more harm than good.

Consider this...

I am speaking my mind, but if I openly vented viewpoints like this back at school at this point, I would likely be bitterly assailed and drummed out of school for it, accused of being a 'rape denialist' or worse. That's what this movement and people who support it do, and they control the levers of power and media right now. Feminism is not misandry? Maybe not, but it sure feels that way right now.

Put another way: if a scientific achievement gets reduced to an assault on the lead scientist for his choice of shirt, or a blockbuster movie gets reduced to a throwaway line that is somehow code for rape culture, then something has gone very, very wrong.

So, I'm sorry folks... the bottom line is that Five Stars was speaking for me in that chapter. And I make no apology for it.

 

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Okay, I'm done. Thoughtful replies are welcome, agree or disagree, but ones that descend to name-calling will be summarily deleted. Keep it civil, folks.

 

 

 

Link to source:

vhttp://www.fimfiction.net/blog/486103/trigger-warning-honest-thoughts-on-feminism-ahead

 

My personal thoughts: Femi-Nazis are a vocal minority of the feminist movement. However, as they are what some people hear about most, they might jump to the inclusion that that's what they're dealing with whenever they encounter a feminist.

Other stuff I've found:

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_campus_sexual_assault_is_a_serious_problem_but_the_efforts.html

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/to-the-feminist-frightened-of-ksu-men/

 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Silverblade5

[Jedal he/him]

Just gonna say before hopping into this firestorm, this was a very bad idea. I'm falling prey to it, and it will become very big. You may have just started a Manywar.

I personally have no problem with feminists. They push for equal wages and desire equality. However, the femi-nazis are insane. Literally insane. Find some videos, and within you can find a simple fallacy in their logic. Similar to the Nazis for which they were named, they have a superiority problem. They believe that women are the superior gender. SUPERIOR, not equal.

Feminism is reasonable up to a point, after which, it becomes redundant. However, Femi-Nazis are not only redundant, but counterproductive.

[Sallin Zeras he/him]

I agree with @Orderbound. Feminists are okay, but feminazis are taking it to a whole new level. Feminists are right, actually. I don't consider myself a feminist, but I agree with the majority of their ideas, but feminazism (I think that's what it's called, I'm not sure) is a total exaggeration.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

I have just been made aware that femi-nazi was a deragotory term used to describe feminists. I'd previously been unaware of this, and had been using the term to provide an easily identifiable historic counterpoint that people are already familiar with, thus leading to easier understanding of the point I'm trying to make. Because of this information, I am changing any mentions of the term to "Rad fem".

@OrderboundMaybe, but I have enough faith in the maturity of the shard to raise this topic without it descending into name calling.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Silverblade5

[aeromancer he/him]

As long as we're bringing up names, the sole problem I have a problem with a the feminist movement is the name they picked. Words have power, and must be formed accordingly. Feminism is a bad word for the modern climate. I’ll repeat that, a bit stronger. Feminism, when used in reference to the equality between men and women is a horrible term. This is because feminism comes from ‘female’, meaning a movement labeled as Feminism is one solely focused on women. Feminism is a good name for the "radical feminist" movement. Feminism is a good name for a movement granting full equal rights to women that they did not previously have, such as the movements in the early 1900s. Neither the case here. Calling yourself a "feminism" and then saying you support equal rights labels implies the status quo as chauvinism, which it is not. If you wish to start a movement championing the quality of genders, please call something gender-neutral.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

How false rape claim ruin lives; Denial of due process to college students

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_campus_sexual_assault_is_a_serious_problem_but_the_efforts.html

[The Honor Spren she/her]

Spoiler

Click on the image for full size.

 

[Kaymyth she/her]

10 minutes ago, The Honor Spren said:

  Hide contents

Click on the image for full size.

 

Full size comes up very tiny.  I can't even zoom in on it.  Sorry, Honor Spren, but it's kind of unreadable.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

2 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

Full size comes up very tiny.  I can't even zoom in on it.  Sorry, Honor Spren, but it's kind of unreadable.

Open the image in a new tab.

[Kaymyth she/her]

35 minutes ago, Silverblade5 said:

Open the image in a new tab.

That worked.

OK, @The Honor Spren, I can read it now, but it might be pushing the Shard's language rules. The filter can't kick in on an image.

[Mestiv he/him]

I'm not sure what this topic is meant to achieve. Convince general Shard population that there is a problem with equality? I don't think anyone needs to be convinced. If I recall correctly there was once a heated up discussion about wage gap, but I don't think anyone ever claimed that everything is ok.

About the movement name: maybe Equalism would be more appropriate, but since Feminism is so popular I don't see it coming away.

False rape accusations are a terrible thing, but on the other hand we have stories of rapists going out of court with almost no punishment ("to not hurt their career" or smth like that). I don't think it's a gender equality problem as much as justice system problem.

[Chaos he/him]

We are going to be watching this thread very closely. Be respectful. We might close this down any time.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

37 minutes ago, Mestiv said:

I'm not sure what this topic is meant to achieve. 

You and me both. There seems to mostly be an attempt to define feminism as something that it is not and repudiating the straw-man of the "radical feminist". Outside of the comic @The Honor Spren posted, there isn't much in the way of feminism being discussed, from my perspective.

37 minutes ago, Mestiv said:

About the movement name: maybe Equalism would be more appropriate, but since Feminism is so popular I don't see it coming away.

Feminism does not deal solely in abstract equality. It is meant to address the specific inequality women face, the causes of which are different from inequality caused by, say, racism  or different economical class.

Which leads to another tangent: What does one mean by equality? Equality of pay has different solutions then equality of opportunity which is even different from equality of being secured in one's person or equality of expectations or equality of etc and so forth.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Orlion Determined

[Silverblade5 he/him]

33 minutes ago, Mestiv said:

I'm not sure what this topic is meant to achieve. Convince general Shard population that there is a problem with equality? I don't think anyone needs to be convinced. If I recall correctly there was once a heated up discussion about wage gap, but I don't think anyone ever claimed that everything is ok.

About the movement name: maybe Equalism would be more appropriate, but since Feminism is so popular I don't see it coming away.

False rape accusations are a terrible thing, but on the other hand we have stories of rapists going out of court with almost no punishment ("to not hurt their career" or smth like that). I don't think it's a gender equality problem as much as justice system problem.

This topic was meant as a discussion on modern feminism. Specifically, understanding of different perspectives on it. However, I can't word thing, so this was lost on you. Everything I've posted has just been stuff I've heard.

3 minutes ago, Chaos said:

We are going to be watching this thread very closely. Be respectful. We might close this down any time.

Noted. I was actually planning on shooting you a pm asking you to do that, but since you're here, that won't be necessary 

[ThirdGen]

Feminist (in the way everyone claims they mean it, but it doesn't really stick): One who believes in and advocates for equality between men and women.
Feminist (as specialist): One whose primary sociopolitical lens is gender.
Radical feminist: One of the above whose ideas and/or tactics are outside the Overton window.
Feminazi: A vaguely defined slur against all of the above popularized by Rush Limbaugh.  Learning this ended my brief turn-of-the-millennium use of the word.

To better understand what exactly caused the situations you're seeing above, you need to recognize what happened to the academic left in the United States from the '60s onward.  The issues above are college campus-centered because that's where they come from.  The late '60s saw a lot of major, frightening defeats for the swelling left counterculture.  The general strikes and occupations in France in 1968 were isolated and crushed.  The assassinations of two Kennedys, MLK, and Fred Hampton scared much of the liberal and racial reconciliation specialists out of action.  In the '70s, Altamont dissipated the idea of rock concerts as a friendly, open space for youth to explore their social identities.  After the draft was abolished, the Vietnam protest movement mostly stopped caring about going further.  The growing linkage of black and socialist movements was split apart by Nixon's institution of affirmative action and "black capitalism" campaign.  Painters had already been steered away from left topics by post-WW2 government funding of more abstract things, like Jackson Pollock's paint splatters.  A similar situation happened with professors, who were encouraged to come up with any random subjective theory that wasn't remotely sympathetic to the Soviets.

College movements became, decade by decade, more based on the direct experience of the upper middle class who worked at or took social science paths at them.

The push for greater sentencing and assumption of guilt in college rape cases is presented as being about feminism, but is much more closely related to the law-and-order push for more and heavier drug sentences, paranoia about pedos being everywhere, and generally anything that helps to expand the lucrative prison industry.  Speech codes are similarly measures of right-wing character.  They find more ways to get students to buckle down under threat and not make waves, limit the discourse to the particular framing of the professors in charge, and give colleges excuses to dismiss staff or students and even cut funding if a big enough story comes of it.

A better example of the power-protect model slightly mislabeled as rape culture would be Penn State and the Paterno/Sandusky coverup.  Incidentally, Birth of a Nation director Nate Parker was a star athlete there and received the university's top-grade legal assistance at his rape trial.

If you accept the surface explanation of things like this, you're going to keep attacking the opposite of the real problem.  The culturally disempowered looking for a tidy, easy way of cleaning up their oppression (limiting it to sexism, racism, LGBT discrimination, etc.) are threats to no one but those trying to band the left together like it hasn't been in many of our lifetimes.

When the economically disempowered look for a tidy, easy way of cleaning up their oppression, well... you know what I'm getting at.

Please, recognize when what you're doing is on the side of those looking to grind people down.

[Arrae]

In the US Marine Corps, men and women are held to different standards in the physical fitness test. On one hand, it probably lets more women jion the Marine Corps. On the other hand, it's treating people differently based on their gender. Is this equality? Is this what feminism should strive for, or is it feminism should seek to change?

[Chaos he/him]

You know, I've decided this topic is going to not lead to productive discussion and will become too heated. So I am locking it. I'm not sure internet forums are good for whatever this purpose of this thread is for.