ccstat he/him Posted December 7, 2016 Report Share Posted December 7, 2016 (edited) We got an interesting WoB on savants from the Chicogo signing. The originally reported paraphrase sparked some discussion and speculation that sent me looking for all of the prior WoB on the topic. I've compiled them here. If I have missed a WoB, point me at it and I will update this post. New WoB: Quote Q. So, allomantic savants. When that happens is it purely physiological or is something else happening? A. It's physiological in a cosmere sense, but that can involve your cognitive and spiritual aspect. Q. Are there other similar processes to savantism in other magic systems? A. Yeah. You've seen it. Soulcasters. Q. Where their skin turns... A. Well, where their spirit is slowly merged and infused with investiture that is having physical ramifications. It is the same thing. Q Have we seen the Resonances of either Wax or Wayne? A Yeah, you have. Wax is really good at sculpting bullets and things away from him. Q The bubble. A This is playing with the fact that he is... Let's just say the abilities make this happen, and I'll let you theorize on why, but it just is an enhancement to what he can do. Q I ask because I thought you said that it was because he was becoming a steel savant. A A savant, yeah. Definitely, but this is where it is coming from. Q Being a savant has to do with being really good with one power. A Yes Q And Resonances are about the... A Being a savant has to do with using investiture a lot. And it's starting to permeate your soul. Like we've talked... Q So he is more of a savant with both of them? A He's used them a lot. And they are changing his soul. And so the powers are morphing and changing. Just in slight little ways; you're not going to see a whole bunch. But you can imagine these two separate powers are kind of becoming one to him. Q And Wayne? A Wayne's is not as obvious. I'll go ahead and RAFO that right now. EDIT2: And Argent followed up with Brandon for an important clarification. That additional WoB has now been added to the list in this post; you can find the original forum topic here. Original post intro, for posterity: Spoiler We got an intriguing WoB from the Chicago signing saying: (paraphrased) On 12/7/2016 at 10:03 AM, Volratho said: As far as Wax's resonance, Brandon described that the two powers he has are starting to merge into one for Wax. He said that Wax is starting to become a savant with his abilities, and that Savantism is not ability specific, but more of becoming more infused with investiture. This is the same with the soulcasters on Roshar, them starting to turn stone like is a type of savantism, meaning they are becoming more and more infused with the investiture. There has been some discussion in that event thread about what this actually means, (including the clear first question of whether achieving savant status with one power actually grants you savant-like abilities in another power). To try to wrap my mind around this, since "savant" has always seemed very ability-specific to me, I pulled all of the past WoB on savants from Theoryland and the annotations. I'll post my thoughts about things after we get the verbatim quote from the Chicago signing (and I'll update this post with the wording), but for now I will leave all of the quotes up here so that we can have a common starting point for this discussion. Annotations Spoiler HoA Ch 14, on Spook: Quote Yes, he’s done serious damage to his body by ignoring the advice not to flare his metal too much. (See book one where Kelsier gives this same advice to Vin.) However, he now recognizes what he’s done and explains why he’s doing it. AoL Ch 11 Quote For these books, I wanted to show people who had one or two powers, instead of sixteen, and show how specialization can achieve some incredible results. Because of that, I intentionally held back in the first trilogy in letting Vin do a few things. (Note how much better Zane was with minute steelpushes and ironpulls than she was.) Vin was incredibly skilled, but because she had so many powers to work with, she didn’t home in as much on any one of them. Things like Wax’s steel bubble are tricks I wanted to save for people like Wax. (He’s what we’d call in the Mistborn world a steel savant, so capable with his metal—and having burned it so long, for so many years—that he’s got an instinctive ability with it that lets him be very precice.) Theoryland Results (In chronological order, to track new insights. Spoiler Jun 2009 Quote Q What benefit does an aluminum savant get? A Is it even possible to become an aluminum savant? You'd have to be burning aluminum consistently, and aluminum just kind of goes away in a burst.... Mar 2012 (Paraphrased) Quote There's an upper bound to the amount of power you can get from being a savant. Brandon said that, obviously, the Lord Ruler wasn't using duralumin and Elend could only get that powerful in Soothing using duralumin. Sep 2012 (Verbatim) Quote Q What benefit does an aluminum savant get? A On the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities. Q What about a Lerasium savant? Or would that require so much Lerasium that the person attempting it would ascend to become a new Shardholder? A Basically, this is what ascension is. Apr 2013 (Verbatim) Quote Q Was the Lord Ruler using feruchemy + alchemy to soothe all of the people around him? Or was he, as I like to think, flaring for so long that he became a Soother Savant? A He lived long enough and used his metals enough (particularly Soothing) to become nearly a savant in every area, if not a full savant. Mar 2014 (Paraphrased) Quote Q Can you Compound to the point where you become a Savant? A No, being a Savant is when you burn so much it alters your spirit, Compounding is similar but different. Q In what ways is the process of becoming an allomantic savant like body building or other exercise? A That is not an inapt metaphor for it. It's like a wedge gets in the soul and cracks it, and investiture can fill it up. Q And using allomancy breaks it further? A Yes. Q Do other magic systems in the Cosmere function in a similar way? A Yes. Q Which ones? Will we see them soon? A I'm going to have to RAFO that. Mar 2015 (Verbatim) Quote Q Is it possible to become a Stormlight/Breath savant, what would the effects of that be? A RAFO Oct 2015 (Verbatim) Quote Q There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too? A That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power. Q So can bronze savants pierce Copperclouds? A Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the Coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes. Q So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce Copperclouds? A Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force. Apr 2016 (Verbatim) Quote Q Would a savant look different in the spiritual realm than a regular human? A Yes, yes. Q Would Hoid's spirit web seem more similar to that of a savant or a regular human? A Oh, neither one, but it would be weirder than a savant. Sep 2016 (Verbatim) [As the fan who asked the question notes, Brandon's response seems to be primarily about hemalurgy rather than savant status, but I'll leave it in the least] Quote Q So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right? A Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you. (I think he was saying that the Hemalurgy itself hurts you more than being a savant, but I'm not sure how to interpret this) Q So say you go to Roshar and you give somebody a Hemalurgic spike for some Allomantic power, don't care what, and you use it to become a savant. Does that qualify them as 'broken' enough to become a Radiant? As long as they are also following the Ideals to attract a spren. A So becoming a Radiant is a spectrum of terminologies. It... probably, but you would have to find a Radiant who would, or a spren who would be willing to touch that, okay? It's going to drive them back. Q So would it also affect your probability of becoming an Elantrian? A Yeah it would affect your ability to become anything else, yes. Q Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb. A It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb. Q So it's easier for Investiture to get in. Does it make it easier for other Investitures to get in? A It would make it... yes. It's going to drive spren away. So what it's really going to make easier for, there, is spren and Investiture that doesn't care. Q Okay, so Investiture doesn't care but spren do. A Investiture might care depending on if it's part of a Shard-- if it has intent and things like this. Q So it might let Stormlight in easier than a Breath, type thing. A I'm saying it might let Odium in easier than Syl. Because Syl would care, and Odium would not care. Q Okay cool. A Alright, so it could be a really bad thing, is what I'm trying to say to you. Nov 2016 (Verbatim) Quote Q Can you use Identity (I love the speed bubbles!) to anchor speed bubbles to yourself? A Uh, this is possible. That’s less a matter of Identity. What’s gonna happen there, like, the more someone uses the powers, the more familiar and intermingled with their soul the powers become, and they are able to accomplish things that others can’t. This would be like a mistborn learning to hover a coin, right, which they can do, but most think you can’t. That’s the sort of level we’re going with. Q So a savant could? A A savant could totally do that. The problem is, things moving in and out of a speed bubble, there’s a transference of energy. This is how we keep speed bubbles from irradiating people when light moves through them, right, red shift. And so there’s a transfer of energy directly from the spiritual realm, which means that moving with a speed bubble, you’re gonna run into that, and it’s gonna be, it’s gonna cause all kinds of problems, but it would be possible. Nov 2016 (verbatim) [same as opening quote of post] Quote Q. So, allomantic savants. When that happens is it purely physiological or is something else happening? A. It's physiological in a cosmere sense, but that can involve your cognitive and spiritual aspect. Q. Are there other similar processes to savantism in other magic systems? A. Yeah. You've seen it. Soulcasters. Q. Where their skin turns... A. Well, where their spirit is slowly merged and infused with investiture that is having physical ramifications. It is the same thing. Q Have we seen the Resonances of either Wax or Wayne? A Yeah, you have. Wax is really good at sculpting bullets and things away from him. Q The bubble. A This is playing with the fact that he is... Let's just say the abilities make this happen, and I'll let you theorize on why, but it just is an enhancement to what he can do. Q I ask because I thought you said that it was because he was becoming a steel savant. A A savant, yeah. Definitely, but this is where it is coming from. Q Being a savant has to do with being really good with one power. A Yes Q And Resonances are about the... A Being a savant has to do with using investiture a lot. And it's starting to permeate your soul. Like we've talked... Q So he is more of a savant with both of them? A He's used them a lot. And they are changing his soul. And so the powers are morphing and changing. Just in slight little ways; you're not going to see a whole bunch. But you can imagine these two separate powers are kind of becoming one to him. Q And Wayne? A Wayne's is not as obvious. I'll go ahead and RAFO that right now. Brandon's clarification post-signing: Spoiler Quote /u/ArgentSun: Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around. Also, thank you for the great post-signing Q&A in Chicago, it more than made up for the somewhat rushed signing, and very much left everyone giddy with excitement -- Evgeni P.S. For quick reference (including my original question): http://i.imgur.com/GKOta9A.png /u/mistborn: Evgeni, So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.) And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences. That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore. So if I backpetal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for soulcasting savants on Roshar.) Feel free to share this. /u/ArgentSun: Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)? /u/mistborn: I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and allomantic resonance." The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books. Edited December 16, 2016 by ccstat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djarskublar he/him Posted December 8, 2016 Report Share Posted December 8, 2016 In the event page, we decided we jumped the gun on this one. There that WoB you have at the top was paraphrased, and after listening to the audio we agreed that it was still ability specific. It's a downer, but oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccstat he/him Posted December 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2016 Thanks, I updated the OP yesterday to reflect that, but was having internet troubles so I guess the edit didn't go through after all. I'll fix that now. While no longer shocking and contradictory, the new info is still interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djarskublar he/him Posted December 8, 2016 Report Share Posted December 8, 2016 Yep. Still an interesting subject. You even quoted one of my WoB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 8, 2016 Report Share Posted December 8, 2016 This makes me wonder. So the steel bubble is an extension of his resonance and savantism. When Wax commented to an opponent that they shouldn't drop their steel bubble, was it because all coinshots can make one to some degree, but as a result of his resonance he can make a better one than most, or does he just believe every coinshot can because he doesn't see himself as especially above the norm, when in truth he is only one of the few who can. (Only three Crashers known in history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djarskublar he/him Posted December 8, 2016 Report Share Posted December 8, 2016 Maybe other coinshots can put up a bubble, but only crashers like him can exclude their own stuff. Another case of 'one or all' (with several caveats) in Allomancy wouldn't surprise me. Nor would this potential exception to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 This might (eventually) be relevant to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccstat he/him Posted December 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 Thank you, Argent! I've updated the OP with a link and quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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