The KR Orders Table and Bonding Spren

[marianmi]

We know how to interpret the table. But we are missing some details.

 

There have been many theories, how some orders are BFFs, how the ordering is done based on the spren type. WoB is that the spren are mixed Cultivation and Honor, there are Adonalsium spren as well. Do they bond, are they on the radiant table? Both the allomantic table and the feruchemical table are nicely laid out. So it make sense the surgebinding table is as well. We just have to make sense of it.

 

So here's my latest theory (with the help of the others put out there) laid out.

 

* There are spren on Roshar - adonalsium spren, odium spren, honorspren, cultivationspren. WoB is that there are also mixed Honor-Cultivation spren as well. It would make sense that we only have H+C mixed spren, given the romantic involvement of Tanavast and (Cultivation).

* Spren can bond with intelligent races in the physical realm. Humans, Parshendi, Aimians.

* Spren can bond with non or less-intelligent creatures in the physical realm. The big animals (Reshi Islands, Santhid, Chasmfiends, etc.

* Only certain spren can bond with certain creatures. E.g. only H, C, H+C spren can bond with humans.

 

* The Heralds were bonded to Honor a long time ago to fight the voidbringers. The bond was known as the Oathpact. When the Heralds broke the Oathpact, they severed their bond with Honor.

* It might be possible that the embodiment of the bond was the Honorblade. 

* We don't know if anyone was bonded to Cultivation.

 

* Spren are a pretty independent bunch, with their own organization. They used to bond freely with humans, based on some attributes shown by the human => surgebinders. Each spren is attracted to "subintents" of it's creating shard. These "subintents" are known as "Divine Attributes" - protecting, leading, pious, learning, etc...

* Spren were able to replicate the Oathpact - making an oath to act in accordance to different facets of those Divine Attributes would make the bond (and the surgebinder) more powerful.

*** sidenote *** It is possible the Oathpact contained more than one oath. It is also possible the Heralds did not broke all oaths from the Oathpact in abandoning their Honorblades. This could explain why they are still alive. They have been basically reduced in level.

 

And now my (latest) interpretation of the table:

 

* The orders in the corners are using spren that are not mixed.

* The orders in the upper part of the chart are using spren created from Honor.

* The orders in the bottom part of the chart are using spren created from Cultivation.

There are 4 horizontal groups.

Group 1: 9, 1 - honorspren

Group 2: 8, 10, 2 - honorcultivationspren

Group 3: 7, 5, 3 - cultivationhonorspren

Group 4: 6, 4 - cultivationspren

 

* There are 3 vertical groups:

Group 1 = left side: 6, 7, 8, 9

Group 2 = center: 5, 10

Group 3 = right side: 1, 2, 3, 4

* Group 1 deals with cognitive matters

* Group 2 deals with spiritual matters

* Group 3 deals with physical matters

 

Thoughts on this interpretation?

Edited January 24, 2014 by marianmi

[Mysty she/her]

Wow, I like this theory. Everything I know about the table fits with your analysis. Now if we could just get WoR for more info on different orders we might be able to comfirm it. Upvote for you!

[hoser he/him]

It seems at least as good as my pet model and it overlaps quite a bit.  Upvote!

 

I understand the spiritual to have to do with connections, leaving both pressure and gravity as spiritual surges.  In my model there are just spiritual on the right and cognitive on the left, with the middle orders (5,10) balanced between the two. 

 

I have honorpren on the top and cultivationspren on the bottom, with order 10 having the purest honorspren and order 5 the purest cultivationspren.  The spren of orders 2,3, 7 and 8 would be the most mixed spren between Honor and Cultivation.  Really the strongest reason I do it this way is that the purest cultivationspren seem like they should provide the growth surge.  It also seems reasonable that the purest honorspren could provide the pressure surge, which binds, and pious and guiding seem compatible with a particularly honorable order. 

 

I will be very interested to see how it really turns out. 

[skaa he/him]

The part above your "latest interpretation" section looks pretty solid to me, marianmi. I'd like to know how you came up with your realmatic grouping (the vertical groups), though.

 

It seems at least as good as my pet model and it overlaps quite a bit.  Upvote!

 

I understand the spiritual to have to do with connections, leaving both pressure and gravity as spiritual surges.  In my model there are just spiritual on the right and cognitive on the left, with the middle orders (5,10) balanced between the two. 

 

 

I agree with hoser that the right side of the chart seems to have a more spiritual theme. We know (based on Szeth) that on Roshar, gravity is a spiritual connection between objects. The Body Focuses of the right-side Essences (Inhalation, Exhalation, the Soul, and the Eyes) are also often associated with spirituality.

 

Soulcasting manipulates the Cognitive, so that's another point for hoser's interpretation. Hopefully we'll get info on Orders 5 and 10 soon (like, in the final chapter giveaway? *wishes*) so we can find more clues about the KR chart.

Edited January 24, 2014 by skaa

[Moogle]

We have WoB that gravity is Spiritual, so I disagree with your analysis. I think the easiest way to divide the table up is to group things into two quadrants of Spiritual, one quadrant of Physical, and one quadrant of Cognitive. Starting with 1 as Pressure and going clockwise:

• Spiritual: 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9 (Gravity, Division, Friction, Transformation, Transportation, Unknown)
• Cognitive: 5, 6 (Illumination and Growth)
• Physical: 10, 1 (Surface Tension and Pressure)

Ultimately, the table is split into two symmetrical sides. There's two lizards. The Surges opposite each other (on the same body part of each lizard) should definitely be of the same type, if you can even apply labels like 'Spiritual' to any of the Surges, given that they seem to affect multiple realms (especially in the case of Soulcasting).

 

Soulcasting is changing what the essence of something is, so I peg it as Spiritual. It also deals with Shadesmar, though, so you can see it as Cognitive. It's irritating.

 

Also, my grouping makes a nice palindrome! PSSSCCSSSP.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Thoughts on this interpretation?

Whether it is true or not, I love it, and from me you receive roaring applause just for finding a potential system.  

I think that there is going to be one more layer of complexity that comes from better understanding those linking lines. It's going to be a doozy, I think.

 

I'd also like to keep taking looks at that other chart. Perhaps it is how the Surges function in Shadesmar? That might have my vote right now (which changes weekly). 

Great post though. 

 

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

Something I was thinking of when when looking at those linking lines and recalling the suggested animosity between Honorspren and Cryptics, is that perhaps they partly represent how well the various orders work with each other. Each is connected with 2-3 other orders sharing one of their surges and then 1 connection to an order on the opposite side of the chart that shares none of their surges. In chapter 9 Syl's comment about Cryptics seems to backup Jasnah's claim that they don't get along very well and I can't imagine KR would perform at top notch if their spren don't get along with each other.

That would mean (1-6), (2-7), (3,8), (4,9), and (5,10) shouldn't be paired up while the other line links indicate orders that perform really well together. Orders without links get along with each other fine but also don't particularly compliment each other. That would also imply 1,4,6, and 9 are the most versatile when working with others since they have 3 "beneficial" linking lines.

Edit: Correction, 1,4,6, and 9 each have two links with related surges and two links with non related surges so that messes with my theory a bit. Maybe the vertical links (1-4) and (9-6) indicate no surge relation but that their spren still get along well and complement each other in battle. Would love to see Kaladin and Lift working together and how Wyndle and Syl relate.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Awesomeness summoned

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Something I was thinking of when when looking at those linking lines and recalling the suggested animosity between Honorspren and Cryptics, is that perhaps they partly represent how well the various orders work with each other. Each is connected with 2-3 other orders sharing one of their surges and then 1 connection to an order on the opposite side of the chart that shares none of their surges. In chapter 9 Syl's comment about Cryptics seems to backup Jasnah's claim that they don't get along very well and I can't imagine KR would perform at top notch if their spren don't get along with each other.

That would mean (1-6), (2-7), (3,8), (4,9), and (5,10) shouldn't be paired up while the other line links indicate orders that perform really well together. Orders without links get along with each other fine but also don't particularly compliment each other. That would also imply 1,4,6, and 9 are the most versatile when working with others since they have 3 "beneficial" linking lines.

Edit: Correction, 1,4,6, and 9 each have two links with related surges and two links with non related surges so that messes with my theory a bit. Maybe the vertical links (1-4) and (9-6) indicate no surge relation but that their spren still get along well and complement each other in battle. Would love to see Kaladin and Lift working together and how Wyndle and Syl relate.

Yeah, I've always been hopeful of a sort of combination/cooperation being behind those. Like they can enhance each others abilities in some way. More than just the product of their Surges being helpful though... I'm not going to say they are going to create a Megazord, but something in that ballpark of awesome. 

[duladen he/him]

And now my (latest) interpretation of the table:

 

* The orders in the corners are using spren that are not mixed.

* The orders in the upper part of the chart are using spren created from Honor.

* The orders in the bottom part of the chart are using spren created from Cultivation.

There are 4 horizontal groups.

Group 1: 9, 1 - honorspren

Group 2: 8, 10, 2 - honorcultivationspren

Group 3: 7, 5, 3 - cultivationhonorspren

Group 4: 6, 4 - cultivationspren

 

* There are 3 vertical groups:

Group 1 = left side: 6, 7, 8, 9

Group 2 = center: 5, 10

Group 3 = right side: 1, 2, 3, 4

* Group 1 deals with cognitive matters

* Group 2 deals with spiritual matters

* Group 3 deals with physical matters

 

Thoughts on this interpretation?

 

This is a well hashed out theory, and it's really close to my thoughts. But I would make some small changes.

 

Horizontal Groups:.Since Order 10 and Order 5 share their surges with orders that you have associated with spren purely of one shard, I would include them with those horizontal groups.

Group 1 = 9, 10, 1 = honorspren

Group 2 = 8, 2 = honorcultivation spren

Group 3 = 7, 3 = cultivationhonorspren

Group 4 = 6, 5, 4 = cultivation spren

 

Vertical Groups: Like others have mentioned, we have WoB that Gravity is Spiritual. Notice that it's the surge that is labeled, not the order. So I think Horizontal Groups are for Orders/Spren and Vertical Groups are for Surges and their Realmatic nature.

Group 1 = (unknown), Transportation, Transformation = Cognitive

Group 2 = Surface Tension, Atmospheric Pressure, Illumination, Growth = Physical or a Cognitive/Spiritual mix, I'm undecided on this

Group 3 = Gravity, Division, Friction = Spiritual

 

I'm really hoping we'll be able to learn the final surge and the last two orders soon!

[marianmi]

 Yes, I think that we can categorise the spren, and hence the order, based on the shard, and the surges as phy/cog/spiritual.

 

I did not know about that WoB, then, as many said, maybe left side is cognitive, right side is spiritual and up+down is physical?

This means:

- unknown, transportation, transformation = cognitive

- gravity, division, friction = spiritual

- surface tension, atm pressure, illumination, growth = physical

 

atm pressure seems physical, but then there is growth ... if the group is physical then growth = fast healing; but if growth can heal shardblade cuts then growth would be cognitive...

 

about horizontal groups... duladen: I don't think there are that many pure spren...i would rather be inclined to believe, like others, that there is only one pure spren (so pure honorspren would be just #10, and that would be bondsmith ... this would kind of make sense). But then, it does not make sense in the chart to have horizontal lines of mixed spren, then pure spren, then mixed spren, mixed spren, pure spren, mixed spren... makes more sense to have the longest vertical line between pure honorspren and pure cultivationspren.

 

I really think we are very very close to the truth here

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I was going to start a new topic, but I like this one so much that I'm just going to write my thoughts at the bottom of it. Just things that I think support your theory, skaa. Part of it at least.

There are only a couple descriptions of Cultivation that we have from Brandon:

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, orCultivation is about growing herself.

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass.

*Additionally there are quotes that the Shardholder is in fact a woman, and she was romantically involved with Honor. 

 

She is all about growth. We have a Surge called "Growth" at the bottom of the chart. I think that supports the Cultivation-bottom/Honor-top thing you have going. All of the Heralds at the top are also males, while those on the bottom are females. It fits really well. 

 

I think there is also something to be said for Transportation and Division being two Surges that bridge the divide there, but I'm feeling apathetic and lazy now that the new book is coming out, so I'm not going to write out my theories on that or start a different topic for any of this. hahaha

[Moogle]

She is all about growth. We have a Surge called "Growth" at the bottom of the chart. I think that supports the Cultivation-bottom/Honor-top thing you have going. All of the Heralds at the top are also males, while those on the bottom are females. It fits really well.

 

The issue I have with this is that there is a clear left-right split. Look at the two lizards/dragons on the chart. I don't think they're there for no reason. Herald genders is also something I feel shouldn't be split between Honor and Cultivation - I'd expect 50% males for Honor and 50% females for Honor, in part because it seems a little bit weird otherwise.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

The issue I have with this is that there is a clear left-right split. Look at the two lizards/dragons on the chart. I don't think they're there for no reason. Herald genders is also something I feel shouldn't be split between Honor and Cultivation - I'd expect 50% males for Honor and 50% females for Honor, in part because it seems a little bit weird otherwise.

Except that Honor and Cultivation are both 100% male and female respectively. It's not so odd for them, hahaha. Just like the Allomancy and Feruchemy charts, I think this one is split in multiple directions based on different things. 

[Moogle]

Except that Honor and Cultivation are both 100% male and female respectively. It's not so odd for them, hahaha. Just like the Allomancy and Feruchemy charts, I think this one is split in multiple directions based on different things. 

 

Well yeah, but Honor claims that all the Heralds were his, and not Cultivation's. Here's what Honor says:

 

 

The Almighty turned to him. “I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren—wishing to imitate what I had given men—who made it possible. You will need to refound them. This is your task. Unite them. Create a fortress that can weather the storm. Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often. This is the best advice I can give you.”

 

It's possible Honor is using the opposite of the royal we, here, but eh. I originally leaned towards the Radiants being 50% Honor and 50% Cultivation, but I'm slowly coming to think they were 100% Honor with Cultivation having Voidbinding. She was good at seeing the future, and Voidbinding is about seeing the future. It's possible Cultivation was just responsible for the Old Magic, too.

 

The main issue for me is that Nahel spren seem to be partly composed of Cultivation. Not sure how to work that in to 100% Honor Radiants.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Well yeah, but Honor claims that all the Heralds were his, and not Cultivation's. Here's what Honor says:

 

 

It's possible Honor is using the opposite of the royal we, here, but eh. I originally leaned towards the Radiants being 50% Honor and 50% Cultivation, but I'm slowly coming to think they were 100% Honor with Cultivation having Voidbinding. She was good at seeing the future, and Voidbinding is about seeing the future. It's possible Cultivation was just responsible for the Old Magic, too.

 

The main issue for me is that Nahel spren seem to be partly composed of Cultivation. Not sure how to work that in to 100% Honor Radiants.

 

I'm in that same position, man. I am thoroughly convinced that the Surgebinding chart is Honor and the other is Cultivation, but I'm starting to feel like - in light of the news that they were romantically involved - they allowed pieces of each other into their own systems. Like a pact of their own....

 

However, I think that that quote is in reference to the KR, not the Heralds. In context it sounds like Honor chose the Heralds, and then the spren were responsible for imitating them and creating KR. The Orders themselves are a function of the KR needing some order (teehee). Geez I just want to get this thing figured out already!

 

Edit: 500th post! I get dem 4 dots!

Edited January 31, 2014 by Bloodfalcon

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

Well yeah, but Honor claims that all the Heralds were his, and not Cultivation's. Here's what Honor says:

 

 

It's possible Honor is using the opposite of the royal we, here, but eh. I originally leaned towards the Radiants being 50% Honor and 50% Cultivation, but I'm slowly coming to think they were 100% Honor with Cultivation having Voidbinding. She was good at seeing the future, and Voidbinding is about seeing the future. It's possible Cultivation was just responsible for the Old Magic, too.

 

The main issue for me is that Nahel spren seem to be partly composed of Cultivation. Not sure how to work that in to 100% Honor Radiants.

 

 

The Almighty turned to him. “I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren—wishing to imitate what I had given men—who made it possible. You will need to refound them. This is your task. Unite them. Create a fortress that can weather the storm. Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often. This is the best advice I can give you.”

 

I am confused as to how this is proof that all Heralds are Honor's, I do not disagree that it is probable. 

The addition of the word my  leads me to think he is referring to the Heralds that are his,  this does not necessarily mean that all Heralds are his. If he were speaking of all the Heralds then it could have been The Heralds.  

[duladen he/him]

I am confused as to how this is proof that all Heralds are Honor's, I do not disagree that it is probable.

The addition of the word my leads me to think he is referring to the Heralds that are his, this does not necessarily mean that all Heralds are his. If he were speaking of all the Heralds then it could have been The Heralds.

Based on the Eshonai interlude we've seen, I think it's safe to say that Honorblades grant surgebinding abilities. So, the Heralds could be 100% Honor because they access their powers through talismans that were made by him. The KR access their abilities through nahel bonds with spren, which are some combination of Honor and Cultivation - I believe we have WOB on this somewhere.