Spolier for WOR Sadeas

[bdoble97]

I have a couple thoughts on  Sadeas first  I do not think we've seen the last of him. Obviously we will be seeing him in Dalinar's flashbacks. As a trusted friend of Dalinar.  But I have been wondering will we see him some how hunting Adolin in his dreams. Some people have been saying that Adolin is not cracked enough in the head to have a spren bond with him. Maybe the constant  Haunting of  Adolin's dreams could drive him crazy enough to help revive his Shard blade  by talking to it about the dreams and how he  feels that he's in going insane  and he can connect to the Spren who likely has gone insane as well . My second thought is since the way of Kings I have picture this actot  Rufus Sewell from A Knight's Tale As Sadeas.  Hope that makes sense.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

Didnt even have to give dudes name. As soon as you said A Knights Tale I knew who you were talking about lol. He plays great bad guys. Oh, and the idea of Adolin feeling like he's going crazy is a good one too. Makes sense.

Edited September 25, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler
Typo

[maxal she/her]

Oh... I love Rufus Sewell as Sadeas... Good pick. Not the right ethnicity, but if you are willing to not be too picky on that, I love the pick. And he is just the right age, a bit on the young side, but he works. 

I certainly do not think Sadeas would actually be hunting Adolin in his dreams straight from damnation, but Adolin may have residual PTSD and start having nightmares about his own actions. After all, he walks out of the scene while being in complete shock, will it go away or will it develop into a more permanent issue? 

I love Adolin thinking he is going crazy, it would mirror Renarin thinking the same. I would love having Adolin starting to revive his Blade and thinking all the way through he is crazy. Think of the Blade not behaving has it is supposed to: it doesn't appear after the 10 heartbeats, it disappears in the middle of fights, it does weird stuff, but Adolin desperately clings to it "because it is right" while thinking it is his fault: he has gone crazy.

[bdoble97]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Oh... I love Rufus Sewell as Sadeas... Good pick. Not the right ethnicity, but if you are willing to not be too picky on that, I love the pick. And he is just the right age, a bit on the young side, but he works. 

I certainly do not think Sadeas would actually be hunting Adolin in his dreams straight from damnation, but Adolin may have residual PTSD and start having nightmares about his own actions. After all, he walks out of the scene while being in complete shock, will it go away or will it develop into a more permanent issue? 

I love Adolin thinking he is going crazy, it would mirror Renarin thinking the same. I would love having Adolin starting to revive his Blade and thinking all the way through he is crazy. Think of the Blade not behaving has it is supposed to: it doesn't appear after the 10 heartbeats, it disappears in the middle of fights, it does weird stuff, but Adolin desperately clings to it "because it is right" while thinking it is his fault: he has gone crazy.

Yeah I think itwould make his character much more interesting to read in athe future books. Rufus Sewell has been Sedeas from the very get-go to me.

[maxal she/her]

13 minutes ago, bdoble97 said:

Yeah I think itwould make his character much more interesting to read in athe future books. Rufus Sewell has been Sedeas from the very get-go to me.

There are lot of ways to make his character very interesting, all it needs is an author willing to write it. I never had a Sadeas get-go, so I am willing to steal yours 

[bdoble97]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

There are lot of ways to make his character very interesting, all it needs is an author willing to write it. I never had a Sadeas get-go, so I am willing to steal yours 

Yeah right off the bat I instantly pictured Rufus Sewell as Sadeas and William Hurt as Dalinar. I sometimes picture Kaladin as the lead guy from Spartacus but he's too old. I constantly change my ideas for the rest of the characters I love Shallan probably bc she is a red head but can never put a face to her. 

[Krandacth]

For me Shallan was Lindsey Lohan as she was in Parent Trap, but grown up a bit.

[bdoble97]

12 minutes ago, Krandacth said:

For me Shallan was Lindsey Lohan as she was in Parent Trap, but grown up a bit.

Good choice. I picture her face more round if that makes sense.  Maybe like a young Emma Stone. 

[maxal she/her]

Good pics. I'll admit I never had any real actors idea for the characters. I have somehow half-decided Kaladin has Zayn Malik's features , but this is about it. I find Willian Hurt a bit old for Dalinar, if Rufus is Sadeas, then we need someone having the same age  Pretty much everyone's pic work as Shallan providing she is a pretty willowy red head, but I have yet to find my Adolin. I fear this one is mission impossible: either the actors are way too old or not handsome enough or they aren't blond enough.

[bdoble97]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Good pics. I'll admit I never had any real actors idea for the characters. I have somehow half-decided Kaladin has Zayn Malik's features , but this is about it. I find Willian Hurt a bit old for Dalinar, if Rufus is Sadeas, then we need someone having the same age  Pretty much everyone's pic work as Shallan providing she is a pretty willowy red head, but I have yet to find my Adolin. I fear this one is mission impossible: either the actors are way too old or not handsome enough or they aren't blond enough.

For Adolin I keep on picturing a mixture of Channing Tatum Christopher Evans and I think his name is Charlie Hunnam from Sons of Anarchy. All Are way too old to play the character. For Shallan I'm thinking more of a Emma Stone in Young Michelle Pfeiffer mix I love redheads been married to one for 6 year is been with her for 8.  But Michelle Pfeiffer is a freaking goddess. 

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

On 9/25/2016 at 5:28 PM, maxal said:

Good pics. I'll admit I never had any real actors idea for the characters. I have somehow half-decided Kaladin has Zayn Malik's features , but this is about it. I find Willian Hurt a bit old for Dalinar, if Rufus is Sadeas, then we need someone having the same age  Pretty much everyone's pic work as Shallan providing she is a pretty willowy red head, but I have yet to find my Adolin. I fear this one is mission impossible: either the actors are way too old or not handsome enough or they aren't blond enough.

I rarely picture the characters as RL actors. I usually just take the features described and just think for a little while and try to form it in my mind. Kind of like clay I guess. And its hard for me to picture anything thats not like a 3D drawing. I do take some features of RL people sometimes. Like Kal in my mind always has Jared Padaleckis hair lol.  Adolin is like a pretty boy frat dude to me lol. No offense Max, I know he's your dude, just how I see him.

[Patrick Star]

He's getting resurrected as Sataneas.  Lightflame said so, and as far as I'm concerned, his word is law.

[maxal she/her]

21 hours ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

I rarely picture the characters as RL actors. I usually just take the features described and just think for a little while and try to form it in my mind. Kind of like clay I guess. And its hard for me to picture anything thats not like a 3D drawing. I do take some features of RL people sometimes. Like Kal in my mind always has Jared Padaleckis hair lol.  Adolin is like a pretty boy frat dude to me lol. No offense Max, I know he's your dude, just how I see him.

When I read Adolin's character arc what stuck the most to me is the fact he is basically an outcast. Every single third person's observer comment on his hair, on how they stand out... if we combine this fact to the author explaining how Alethi viewed hair/eye color in the same ways modern America views skin color, then Adolin is basically our equivalent of a half-white, half-back young man trying to fit in within a homogeneous white entourage. They tolerate him because his father is a powerful influential man and connection to him might be useful, but they do not include him. He is not like them. His blood line is too impure.

When Adolin decided to become a duelist, as a teenager, they didn't welcome him within their ranks with open-arms, they laughed of him. They dismissed him as a fopish kid who'd never amount to much. When he beat the odds, his popularity sure rocketed, but it dropped again as, soon after, he was forced to embrace the code and leave the dueling grounds (for the important significant bouts this is). As a result, they still, to this today, dismiss him. Nobody takes him seriously. 

Adolin doesn't hang around the "popular kids" which are Relis, Elit, Acrobacar. Jakamav tolerates him in a friendship which we all saw never meant much. 

Adolin is thus no "boy frat dude", he is a "boy frat dude" wannabe. He's the equivalent of the rich, super nice, slightly naive and prone to social missteps due to his impulsive outgoing personality guy who desperately tries to fit in, who's given the impression he is "part of the gang", but when push to shove, it was all for the connections.

Relis, Elit, Acrobacar, Jakamav and pretty much everyone else Adolin dueled are the Alethi frat boys. Within Alethi standards, Adolin is no frat boy. He is not part of the gang.

Edited October 1, 2016 by maxal

[Argel he/him]

There can really only be superficial relationships among the children of the highrinces, so frat boy is probably the right analogy. The question though is how much of this does Adolin recognize and when did he recognize it? I'm sure everyone wants to fit in, and Adolin would be no expcetion, but I like to think there is also a part of him that realizes how superficial some of it is. That may explain the problems he has had dating -- in fact, from that perspective, maybe it was intentional and not a problem at all (or, if you want, the problem was he might actually have to marry one of them...). Anyway, it explains why he can get along with Kaladin and Shallan so easily. Also, he may resent his mother for being different, which may explain why he was not as traumatized by her death.

[maxal she/her]

8 hours ago, Argel said:

There can really only be superficial relationships among the children of the highrinces, so frat boy is probably the right analogy. The question though is how much of this does Adolin recognize and when did he recognize it? I'm sure everyone wants to fit in, and Adolin would be no expcetion, but I like to think there is also a part of him that realizes how superficial some of it is. That may explain the problems he has had dating -- in fact, from that perspective, maybe it was intentional and not a problem at all (or, if you want, the problem was he might actually have to marry one of them...). Anyway, it explains why he can get along with Kaladin and Shallan so easily. Also, he may resent his mother for being different, which may explain why he was not as traumatized by her death.

Not exactly as while having the right parentage is a requirement to be included within the fraternity, being born to the right parents isn't a guaranteed membership card, especially when the parent in question married a foreigner with the wrong hair color (in our world, the equivalent would be the "wrong" skin color). Being frat boy also implies acceptance which Adolin clearly doesn't have. In each one of his interactions with his peers, he is seen as the "outsider". Oh he talks with them, they talk with him, but he is never open, he always keeps a distance and it is obvious they talk a game he isn't playing. 

I personally feel there are several things going on in between Adolin and his relationships. The main one would be his own self. He speaks of how everyone knows him, how he knows everyone, but he isn't close to anyone, not truly. Why? Is it because he does recognize how superficial it would be? It is because he does see the chasm in between him and they? Is it because he is shy? Is it because he knows he is different and this difference forces him to take a step back as he keeps on feeling he isn't good enough for them? I once read someone else express thoughts as to how it must have been, for Adolin, to grew up as the only blond haired boy in a sea of black. we have inklings, within the book, how important hair color is for him. He states how he likes the fact Danlan isn't dying her auburn hair which leads him to wonder, with a certain bitterness, why it was blond hair were looked negatively upon. When he first sees Shallan, the hair are what draws him: they are different, just like him and when she opens up by praising his, he is surprised, then flattered. I get it not many people ever commented on his hair in a positive manner.

This is just hair... but hair is an indication (because it is viewed as important or nearly as important as skin color would be in our world) of how different Adolin is, it is a constant reminded he isn't a pure blooded Alethi. He is a half-blood. Everyone knows it and they, somehow, treat him as such. 

I thus think Adolin does distance himself from his peers for a variety of reasons which range in between fear of their rejection, the knowledge he is different, his natural kindness which makes him dislike the game they all are playing and the constant reminders he just doesn't belong. Look at how they treat him: with disdain, with snorting, with laughter. They all try to poke at him, to make him react, to tease him and none of it is gentle. Remember what Sadeas said about Dalinar's sons early in WoK: one cannot control him and the other is useless. I believe he might have been saying out load what they are all silently thinking. Adolin is a firecracker, he is an open display of emotions in a society which doesn't do such. Sadeas, who is an older man having no interest in befriending a "kid" needs a great deal of time to assess how talented Adolin truly is, so imagine how the younger ones are faring.

It is such I maintain my point, Adolin is no frat boy: he is the boy who thought he had a membership, but ended realizing they were just doing him a favor because of who his daddy is and when who his daddy is became a problem, they threw him out quick enough.

As for his mother, I don't think Adolin resented her... if he did, he wouldn't be attracted to Shallan, a foreigner. He wouldn't remember her with fondness and he wouldn't carry a memento of her on him. I think Adolin was very close to her, I think he takes a lot after her and I also think he takes his kindness from her.

[Argel he/him]

On 10/1/2016 at 6:12 PM, maxal said:

As for his mother, I don't think Adolin resented her... if he did, he wouldn't be attracted to Shallan, a foreigner. He wouldn't remember her with fondness and he wouldn't carry a memento of her on him. I think Adolin was very close to her, I think he takes a lot after her and I also think he takes his kindness from her.

Good point, which means we have no idea why Adolin was not traumatized by it. Do we know what happened to her? Maybe she had a chance to talk to Adolin while she was dying, which eased the pain? I'm out of ideas after that.

Very insightful post. You should summarize all your thoughts on Adolin and send them to Brandon (via the web email form, for example).

[maxal she/her]

2 hours ago, Argel said:

Good point, which means we have no idea why Adolin was not traumatized by it. Do we know what happened to her? Maybe she had a chance to talk to Adolin while she was dying, which eased the pain? I'm out of ideas after that.

Very insightful post. You should summarize all your thoughts on Adolin and send them to Brandon (via the web email form, for example).

 You mean format all which I have been clamoring about Adolin within a cohesive post and sent it to the author himself? I would never dare  How would he ever reaact to anyone sending him such thing on one of his side characters to beat it all? I wouldn't want to antagonize him more than I already have 

Why hasn't Adolin been traumatize, even slightly, by seeing his mother died when he was a young teenager? I fear only Brandon can answer this one as I have always thought his insistence on Adolin being "normal" and "strong" didn't add up completely with textual we had. There are too many anomalies within Adolin's life to call it "normal". For one, he he has a disabled brother which does have an impact onto the "normal" sibling, which could be greater than most people would think depending on how the parents deal with it. For second, his mother was a foreigner. For third, he is physically different. For fourth, his mother died when he was at a difficult age. For fifth, his father ended up in a depression after his uncle was murdered making Adolin believe he personally had to take care of his father.

I could go on and while it is entirely possible Adolin is either so strong or so naive to not have feel the strain of events. It is possible, but the character has doubted too much for that. He isn't broken, but to say his life had no substance is false.

Did mother talk to him? My thoughts are I think she did. In my head canon, she told him to always be kind, to never let anyone get away with bullying. Maybe she gave him her necklace, to carry on with him, to remember her: maybe she even asked him to always remember her words. It may also be she told him to be strong, to care for his father and his brother, maybe she told him they need him, they need his strength and when they falter, he had to stand tall. 

It may be it all started up with mother, but it never really got any chance to blossom until now.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

On 9/30/2016 at 5:59 PM, maxal said:

When I read Adolin's character arc what stuck the most to me is the fact he is basically an outcast. Every single third person's observer comment on his hair, on how they stand out... if we combine this fact to the author explaining how Alethi viewed hair/eye color in the same ways modern America views skin color, then Adolin is basically our equivalent of a half-white, half-back young man trying to fit in within a homogeneous white entourage. They tolerate him because his father is a powerful influential man and connection to him might be useful, but they do not include him. He is not like them. His blood line is too impure.

When Adolin decided to become a duelist, as a teenager, they didn't welcome him within their ranks with open-arms, they laughed of him. They dismissed him as a fopish kid who'd never amount to much. When he beat the odds, his popularity sure rocketed, but it dropped again as, soon after, he was forced to embrace the code and leave the dueling grounds (for the important significant bouts this is). As a result, they still, to this today, dismiss him. Nobody takes him seriously. 

Adolin doesn't hang around the "popular kids" which are Relis, Elit, Acrobacar. Jakamav tolerates him in a friendship which we all saw never meant much. 

Adolin is thus no "boy frat dude", he is a "boy frat dude" wannabe. He's the equivalent of the rich, super nice, slightly naive and prone to social missteps due to his impulsive outgoing personality guy who desperately tries to fit in, who's given the impression he is "part of the gang", but when push to shove, it was all for the connections.

Relis, Elit, Acrobacar, Jakamav and pretty much everyone else Adolin dueled are the Alethi frat boys. Within Alethi standards, Adolin is no frat boy. He is not part of the gang.

How do you know all of this?! Lol. Not saying you're wrong. I just didnt know he was laughed off as a foppish kid. My only argument about him not being as much of an outcast before we see hin in the books is that its said that he has had relationships with almost all of the eligible girls in the camps. Probably with a lot before the camps as well. And the one we saw seemed pretty into him before he tried to court her sister lol. And just because we see Jakamav and the others spurn him in the books,it doesnt mean they werent actually friends before hand. The Alethi seem to be the type of people who think its important what the other elites think of them, so I think them casting him out after Dalinar starts getting all up into the Codes and acting holier than thou would be exactly what they would do so they could keep up appearances. Plus, he wasnt allowed to duel for what, over a year. Before that he seemed to be pretty well ingrained in the Alethi elite society. I guess I just dont see him as much of an outcast before Dalinars enforcing of the codes onto him, and then the others in WoR. But I very well could be wrong. I mean, I do kinda consider you the go to source on everything Adolin lol.

[Argel he/him]

11 hours ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

Plus, he wasnt allowed to duel for what, over a year. Before that he seemed to be pretty well ingrained in the Alethi elite society.

Except no one takes him seriously as a duelist, so there is more going on there. Maxal is obviously inferring a lot, but it does seem plausible. Maybe we will learn more in SA3.

You are also sort of corroborating what Maxal suggests -- Dalinar kicks in the codes and suddenly Adolin finds himself without friends. In other words, he didn't have any good, close friends to begin with. Which leaves him finding closer friends among outher outsiders like Kaladin and Shallan.

 

14 hours ago, maxal said:

You mean format all which I have been clamoring about Adolin within a cohesive post and sent it to the author himself? I would never dare  How would he ever reaact to anyone sending him such thing on one of his side characters to beat it all? I wouldn't want to antagonize him more than I already have

If you are not comfortable doing that then you could also just ask about one thing and see how that goes. Though Brandon might be impressed if you went into details. He does like interacting with fans, and if fans see something he doesn't, he may appreciate learning about it.

[maxal she/her]

16 hours ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

How do you know all of this?! Lol. Not saying you're wrong. I just didnt know he was laughed off as a foppish kid. My only argument about him not being as much of an outcast before we see hin in the books is that its said that he has had relationships with almost all of the eligible girls in the camps. Probably with a lot before the camps as well. And the one we saw seemed pretty into him before he tried to court her sister lol. And just because we see Jakamav and the others spurn him in the books,it doesnt mean they werent actually friends before hand. The Alethi seem to be the type of people who think its important what the other elites think of them, so I think them casting him out after Dalinar starts getting all up into the Codes and acting holier than thou would be exactly what they would do so they could keep up appearances. Plus, he wasnt allowed to duel for what, over a year. Before that he seemed to be pretty well ingrained in the Alethi elite society. I guess I just dont see him as much of an outcast before Dalinars enforcing of the codes onto him, and then the others in WoR. But I very well could be wrong. I mean, I do kinda consider you the go to source on everything Adolin lol.

Adolin explains in WoR, chapter 14, how Tinalar purposefully insulted his father to his face hoping to secure himself a duel for Shards. Nobody took him seriously back then, the fopish kid with the nice clothing (the exact words of the text or almost exact). Nobody thought he had what it takes to be duelist, nobody saw him as a threat, so yes, I suspect they did laugh. Perhaps not to his face, but they likely snorted in his back, placing bets as to who would win his Shardplate from him. Everyone thought he'd be an easy fight, except he wasn't. 

Also, Adolin wasn't forced to follow the codes for a year, but for 6 years. Ever since Gavilar died and the Vengeance Pact was signed, Dalinar enforced the codes and prohibited Adolin from entering important bouts. Elity Ruthar states it rather clearly: Adolin has not won a decisive bout in years. I once said how Adolin was the equivalent of the athlete only competing (and winning) at local tournaments, not going to any of the international or the most competitive ones. The elite athletes would say: "Sure kid, you are good at winning small competition where there is little competition to be have, but can you do it in the elite leagues?".

The all dismiss him. Right after he secures his duel with Elit, they try to antagonize him, laughing of his family, hoping to have him react and lose face. 

With Adolin, I do think we are getting the sense of being friendly, talking to a lot of people, having dated several girls (all of them in his case) still isn't enough to belong. Sure, Adolin has courted many ladies, but they all talk of him in scorn, they all laugh of him and "dating Adolin" has probably been a game they have all played without expecting anything in return. In other words, while Adolin is portrayed as an easy-going superficial young man who has thousand of friends, the reality is he has none. In the text, it is stated how Adolin considered Jakamav to be his best friend, not just a friend, but his very best one. Would a best friend enter a duel having for sole purpose of killing or crippling you? The enormity of Jamakav's betrayal has no been brought up well enough in the book. This was the man Adolin thought was the closest friend he had.

Had Adolin been part of the gang, they wouldn't have thrown him out as quickly as they did. Before, they tolerate him because it was convenient, but when it stopped being convenient, they threw him out. 

Adolin's story, if we look at it deeply enough, talks of rejection, but not the one we are typically use seeing. Adolin doesn't correspond to the idea most people make themselves of an outcast: he isn't the skinny guy with glasses, he isn't the fat boy, he isn't the deeply introverted guy struggling to make contact. He is none of those things. He is the very social, outgoing guy who's impulsive enough to speak out when he should remain silent: years of scorn likely made him wary of others, hence he fact he never seem to think himself good enough for anybody.

It is one of the aspect I prefer about his character: the fact he tackles themes we rarely see from a character having his behavioral patterns. It makes him very interesting and he's got something a lot of readers can relate to. 

5 hours ago, Argel said:

Except no one takes him seriously as a duelist, so there is more going on there. Maxal is obviously inferring a lot, but it does seem plausible. Maybe we will learn more in SA3.

Of course, I infer a lot, but I try to base myself on the written words.

5 hours ago, Argel said:

You are also sort of corroborating what Maxal suggests -- Dalinar kicks in the codes and suddenly Adolin finds himself without friends. In other words, he didn't have any good, close friends to begin with. Which leaves him finding closer friends among outher outsiders like Kaladin and Shallan.

And he also states how Jakamav's rejection hurt him more than any blows he ever received on the battlefield. It was no small deal for him, but being Adolin, he didn't bother anyone with his own personal issues. He swallowed it and he kept on going. I personally find it very sad Adolin genuinely thought Jakamav was his best friend.

5 hours ago, Argel said:

If you are not comfortable doing that then you could also just ask about one thing and see how that goes. Though Brandon might be impressed if you went into details. He does like interacting with fans, and if fans see something he doesn't, he may appreciate learning about it.

Yeah, well I have thought about it in the past but I honestly never knew where to begin. How does one phrase out thousands of posts into one cohesive document and how does one summon the courage to send it to the author? Will he even read it? I know he answers questions, but I wouldn't know what to ask specifically... What I direly want to know are things he isn't likely to give away. I once managed to ask something about Adolin, no matter how small, but he wouldn't say. He was afraid of walking into spoilers territory........ Adolin I suspect is horribly RAFO.