Magic Use and Realmatics

[Darkness]

I put a couple questions for Brandon up, but I'd love to hear your input!

so my question basically is "how does the realm you are in influence your magical ability?"

As in, if you're a pewterarm, and you travel to the cognitive realm on Scadrial with some pewter, would you be able to burn pewter there? Would it have the same effect as in the physical realm?

If it's emotional allomancy, would you be able to use it in the cognitive to influence someone else in the cognitive? (or in the physical or spiritual?) would it matter if you were at a perpendicularity?

These were brought on by someone pondering the use of the gravitation surge to travel while in shadesmar.

Also, if a koloss entered the spiritual realm, what would happen? What if he was in the cognitive? Would he look like a koloss, or would his spiritual essence look like overlapping people?

Can the transportation surge be used to get to another place (either in the physical world, or while in shadesmar) in the same realm, or is it simply a means of travelling between realms? Related to this, would the oathgate symbols for each city have anything to do with connecting the physical symbol to the spiritual ideal of that city, and then from there back to the physical location of that city's oathgate? (How do those things work? Do they even use interrealm transportation, or is it all intrarealm?)

So many questions! I open them to you wonderful sharders blow my mind!

Edited September 20, 2016 by Darkness

[Isaac]

um are you asking us for an opinion. Cause if you are I believe that most types of magic won't work in the cognitive realm. For no other reason than the fact we have only seen soulcasting so far. 

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Isaac said:

um are you asking us for an opinion. Cause if you are I believe that most types of magic won't work in the cognitive realm. For no other reason than the fact we have only seen soulcasting so far. 

It's asking for any info on the subject and, failing that, our opinions.
Somebody brought up Fabrial spaceship in one of the FTL threads or The Ones Above. The transportation surge came up, and I suggested using gravitation lashings to speed up the long trek through the cognitive. And then apparently this thread happened

Also we have "seen" Soulcasting and Elsecalling. Granted, Jasnah has both of those surges so... who knows

[18th Shard]

Kelsier remained unable to burn metals in the Scadrian Cognitive Realm - however, this may be due to the fact he was a shadow and not an actual living person. I believe there is a scene where Kaladin peeks into the Cognitive Realm while Lashing - not sure if that is relevant, but it is info. Some fabrials can be used in the Cognitive Realm (see the Ire's contraption, though again, it may be odd). 

[Darkness]

Ya, this is basically the conversation I wanted to have

We have pretty scant evidence (I like the Kaladin point though! I forgot about that scene) of magic being used in other Realms. But it seemed to me that since Shards exist on all 3 Realms, and fabrials can be used in the Cognitive and Physical, then there might be a way to access Shardic Investiture in each Realm. Though maybe it depends on how much a Shard has invested into that Realm... maybe they only substantially invest themselves into the Physical?

I think it makes more sense to me that since humans were created in all 3 Realms, and the sDNA (including the part of the spirit web that allows investiture access) seems to be mostly - if not all - of the Spiritual Realm, then magic users should be able to use their ability in all 3 Realms, since they have a connection to each.

Actually, this just gave me another thought. I'm typing as I think here... terrible habit... leads to all sorts of messiness. Perhaps the use of magic actually takes place in all 3 Realms simultaneously. In the Spiritual, your spirit web funnels investiture through your web's specific pattern, which interprets the expression of the power (determines what kind of magic you use). In the Cognitive, you develop the intent to use the magic and guide it's expression (determines how you use it). In the Physical, you interact with it's effects.

By physically entering -as in, going in with your body - one of the other realms (like Shadesmar), your Physical aspect integrates itself with your Cognitive, but the Spiritual aspect is still connected too, so I don't think it would make you unable to use magic, though the observable effects would be in the Cognitive Realm instead of the Physical.

In this way, innate magics (like healing with Stormlight or heightenings, or the quirks of Savantism) seem to be what happens when a more direct connection is established between the Physical and the Spiritual Realms, so it becomes an automatic process. The Cognitive is less involved, but the magic still somewhat relies on - and shapes itself in response to - your perception of yourself, the world, and the magic itself.

@The One Who Connects yours is the post that sparked my thoughts  Thanks for that!

@18th Shard my opinion is that Kelsier couldn't use allomancy because his connection between the Physical and Cognitive Realms was severed. His spirit web retained the relevant pathways for alomancy, and cognitively he knew how he wanted to use it, but he couldn't manifest that ability physically, in either the Physical or Cognitive Realms, since that connection was severed through death. Basically, to restore himself, all he needed was to re-establish the connection from his Spiritual and Cognitive to the Physical, and then he would be able to use his magic again too.

I don't think that it was simply because he couldn't physically burn the metal, although that was probably an issue as well. For example, I don't think the cognitive shadow of a Feruchemist could have used Feruchemy if he had access to physical metals (like that screw Kelsier ate). I think it's more to do with the connection the individual has between Realms.

[Isaac]

I believe magic is created and manipulated in the spiritual plane, its effects happen in the physical, and it's full implications can be seen in the cognitive.

Imagine a table with a large tablecloth spilling over the sides touching the floor. Imagine on top of the table, a little ghost puppet, bobbing and spinning in place. Behind the table there is a man dramatically presenting the ghost with both hands. While under the table is a peddle he is pushing to make the ghost move. The "spiritual plane" is under the table, there the magic is the mechanism moving the ghost. On top of the table the ghost and the man are the "physical plane", they represent the effect the mechanism creates. The "Cognitive plane" in this case would be the... crap my scenario fell apart there. Lets say the cognitive aspect is the whole picture revealed to the audience, like if someone ripped of the tablecloth.