Non Sequitur with Dalinar

[Sixpips]

Words of Radiance Spoilers below, please be warned.

Perhaps I failed to follow something, however this seems to be an oversight in Words of Radiance. We start out with a conversation between Dalinar and Amaram in which Dalinar shows Amaram his irrefutable evidence of Amaram's deceitful nature. Dalinar reveals that he had planted the rumor that the Herald Talanel spoke of a treasure of Shardblades hidden in a cave. Dalinar had placed Talanel's blade in the cave, but only after having bonded with it. He then summoned the blade after Amaram had thought he successfully stole it. The important distinction to recall here is that Dalinar bonded with Talanel's blade.

Later in the book Dalinar is speaking with the Stormfather and wishes to bond him. The stormfather tells Dalinar that he will have to get rid of his shardblade, which we have learned is essentially the undead corpse of a spren (rather metal in my opinion). Dalinar drops the blade and instantly breaks his bond. This is the part I have a question about, as it does not make sense, and if it does make sense it paints a very different picture of Talanel.

 

We learn from both Sylphrena and the internal monologue of Szeth that the original shardblades were made by Honor, whom Dalinar refers to as the Almighty. We also learn that these blades are different from other shardblades in that they give the wielder surgebinding powers, and are referred to as Honorblades. This was later imitated by the spren who wanted to follow in the footsteps of Honor and help fight the Desolations, thus creating the Radiants. This sets up the conflict that I read with Dalinar's conversation with the Stormfather.

The Honorblades are not spren corpses like the rest of the shardblades. The honorblades give surgebinding capabilities to the wielders. With those two statements held to be true, we have to ask two questions: 1.) Why was Dalinar unable to inhale Stormlight until after he bound the Stormfather if he was bonded to an Honorblade? and 2.) Why did the Stormfather have Dalinar cast aside his shardblade if it was not a spren corpse, but in fact an Honorblade?

I can arrive at two separate conclusions for this. One is simple, there was a Continuity error and it was missed in editing. There was never meant to be any hidden meaning behind Dalinar bonding a Herald's Honorblade, and it's a miniscule issue in what has so far been an exemplary piece of fantasy writing.

The second conclusion is a little heavier. This is the assumption that Sanderson and his editors are far more diligent than I am, and in fact intended every scene. This implies that either the Herald Talanel bonded a shardblade other than an Honorblade; or Talanel is not a Herald. If this is the case, it could suggest a follow up, if Talanel is not a herald, is it possible that the man who saves Szeth is not a Herald either? 

I am very interested to hear anyone else's input on this. I am new to the forum, and it is possible this has been discussed before and I haven't found the thread, if so I apologize. 

[PantsForSquares he/him]

Dalinar's blade isn't Taln's Honorblade - that got swapped out sometime while Taln was in captivity. Taln's Honorblade is described as being a spike, IIRC, but the one Dalinar has is more cleaver-like in appearance.

Here's not one, but three WoBs on the issue.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 minutes ago, Sixpips said:

The Honorblades are not spren corpses like the rest of the shardblades. The honorblades give surgebinding capabilities to the wielders. With those two statements held to be true, we have to ask two questions: 1.) Why was Dalinar unable to inhale Stormlight until after he bound the Stormfather if he was bonded to an Honorblade? and 2.) Why did the Stormfather have Dalinar cast aside his shardblade if it was not a spren corpse, but in fact an Honorblade?

I can arrive at two separate conclusions for this. One is simple, there was a Continuity error and it was missed in editing. There was never meant to be any hidden meaning behind Dalinar bonding a Herald's Honorblade, and it's a miniscule issue in what has so far been an exemplary piece of fantasy writing.

The second conclusion is a little heavier. This is the assumption that Sanderson and his editors are far more diligent than I am, and in fact intended every scene. This implies that either the Herald Talanel bonded a shardblade other than an Honorblade; or Talanel is not a Herald. If this is the case, it could suggest a follow up, if Talanel is not a herald, is it possible that the man who saves Szeth is not a Herald either? 

I am very interested to hear anyone else's input on this. I am new to the forum, and it is possible this has been discussed before and I haven't found the thread, if so I apologize. 

He could not inhale stormlight because it was not an honorblade. It is actually a dead spren blade, as evidenced by the fact that he hears screams before breaking the bond.

This answers both of your questions, and defeats conclusion 1: continuity.

As for conclusion 2, we have no idea whether "Taln" is actually a Herald, or if he bonded a shardblade. Firstly, because Brandon always refers to him as "the man who calls himself Taln." Secondly, because the blade he had has disappeared off the map.

Quote

Question   The Shardblade that Dalinar had at the end of Words of Radiance, was that the Honorblade?

Brandon Sanderson   The Shardblade that Dalinar had at the end of Words of Radiance that he gave up?

Question   Yeah, that he gave up.

Brandon Sanderson   No it was not.

Question   It was not? So what happened to the Honorblade that the Herald had?

Brandon Sanderson   Nobody kno- Well, somebody knows, but it is not known to the main characters.

Source 1

Curse you PantsForSquares There goes the rest of my sources

[cadebengert he/him]

I totally missed this detail, so well done to everyone. Makes sense that its a different blade. 

[Sixpips]

Firstly, thank you for the incredibly quick responses! This has been bothering me since I finished the book a couple weeks ago and I am glad to see it was a fault on my part rather than something deeper in the book.

 

Secondly, I was impressed with the quotes and references rather than refutations off of memory. It seems I'm not the only one that this seemed odd to, and I am glad to have learned something new about the series!

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

Even if it had been an honorblade the storm father might have demanded he give it up. Didn't Syl freak out about Szeths blade? I'd have to look it up, vague recollection.  

Also,  no one bonds a shard blade. They bond a spren or a gem stone attached to the blade. I'm not sure if the honorblades are bonded the same way. A blade that was only carried by a herald may be unique in not having a gem stone on the hilt for bonding. Unless someone knows how to add the gem stone then it bay not be bondibale right now. 

[Spoolofwhool]

46 minutes ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

Even if it had been an honorblade the storm father might have demanded he give it up. Didn't Syl freak out about Szeths blade? I'd have to look it up, vague recollection.  

Also,  no one bonds a shard blade. They bond a spren or a gem stone attached to the blade. I'm not sure if the honorblades are bonded the same way. A blade that was only carried by a herald may be unique in not having a gem stone on the hilt for bonding. Unless someone knows how to add the gem stone then it bay not be bondibale right now. 

Spren didn't like the honorblade because it was powerful and dangerous. 

People do bond shardblades. Live sprenblades for instance (the most common on Roshar), as you say, have the wielder bonded to the spren of the blade, which is literally what the shardblade is. Dead sprenblades, it is a bit more unclear whether you're still bonding to the spren with the gem as a catalyst or not. In any case, there is still some relation to the spren which forms the blade as you are synchronizing your heartbeat to summon it. In any case, the gem is treated as being part of the shardblade, just like any other ornamentation you put on something else, so you are bonding the shardblade. 

Honorblades are a bit different as they are not formed from spren, but likely more directly from Honor's power. Their bond is a bit less direct, as the Honorblades do not disappeared when released, and I believe it has been implied that the Honorblade only gives powers if you are physically holding it or have made it dematerialize, though I can't remember where that was said.

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Spren didn't like the honorblade because it was powerful and dangerous. 

People do bond shardblades. Live sprenblades for instance (the most common on Roshar), as you say, have the wielder bonded to the spren of the blade, which is literally what the shardblade is. Dead sprenblades, it is a bit more unclear whether you're still bonding to the spren with the gem as a catalyst or not. In any case, there is still some relation to the spren which forms the blade as you are synchronizing your heartbeat to summon it. In any case, the gem is treated as being part of the shardblade, just like any other ornamentation you put on something else, so you are bonding the shardblade. 

Honorblades are a bit different as they are not formed from spren, but likely more directly from Honor's power. Their bond is a bit less direct, as the Honorblades do not disappeared when released, and I believe it has been implied that the Honorblade only gives powers if you are physically holding it or have made it dematerialize, though I can't remember where that was said.

 

I just reread when Kalidian faces Szeth. I thought I remembered Syl being more angry than afraid of the honorblade. I was wrong she calls it terrible,  but this seems to be in reference to a human having the powers without a spren to guide him. So, yeah she seems afraid of it or of what people can do with it. 

 

As for the honorblades and bonding, I'm just saying I doubt Dalinar could have bonded it like he does a shardblade. Szeths does disappear when he wants it too and return when he wants. Is that just a function of whoever held it last or is there some bond? If it a s bond that works differently to normal shares than Dalinar wouldn't know how to bond it. If it is the same, done through a gem then I doubt Talenel’s blade would have a gem. 

[goody153]

Afaik Honorblades doesn't block the Shardblade users(alive through nahel bond) like how their spren get super annoyed with dead shardblades. Syl even calls it "a treasure" and telling Kaladin to take care of it. 

 

Apparently there's even "compouding" of strength if some KR picked up a honorblade that the power of their order is based from , and you can even do this 

Quote

• INTERVIEW: Mar 13th, 2014

  WOR-Omaha, NE

  MACEN

  If someone is using an Honorblade, would they be able to bond a spren?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  It is indeed possible. It does not block it. Good question. You do not have to bond Honorblades. Honorblades work with whoever holds them.

  TAGS

  honorblades, spren, nahel bond,

• 10

  INTERVIEW: Mar 13th, 2014

  WOR-Omaha, NE

  KYTHIS

  Can they hold more than one Honorblade at a time?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  That is theoretically possible.

  TAGS

  honorblades,

 

INTERVIEW: Mar 21st, 2014

WOR Signing Table Q&A (Verbatim)

QUESTION

For the Honorblades, if somebody that was already a Radiant used an Honorblade, would they get that Surge also?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It is possible to get multiples, yes. Good question.

TAGS

surgebinding, honorblades,

You can do so many cool stuff with Honorblades. And it's probably easier to gather honorblades than bond with multiple sprens to get multiple surges

Edited September 18, 2016 by goody153

[If.you.die.I.go.stupid]

@goody153 thanks. Hadn't seen those interviews.  

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, If.you.die.I.go.stupid said:

As for the honorblades and bonding, I'm just saying I doubt Dalinar could have bonded it like he does a shardblade. Szeths does disappear when he wants it too and return when he wants. Is that just a function of whoever held it last or is there some bond? If it a s bond that works differently to normal shares than Dalinar wouldn't know how to bond it. If it is the same, done through a gem then I doubt Talenel’s blade would have a gem. 

There's still a bond with the shardblade with honorblades, it's just different than a sprenblade's bond. Here's how I understand it: With an honorblade, the connection is weaker. You only get surgebinding and basic stormlight augmentation abilities. The blade doesn't disappear when you drop it unintentionally and the bond is, in fact, reliant on you physically holding it. The only exception is when you dematerialize it. Otherwise, once you let go, you are no longer bonded to it, and can gain nothing from it until you wield it again.

37 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Afaik Honorblades doesn't block the Shardblade users(alive through nahel bond) like how their spren get super annoyed with dead shardblades. Syl even calls it "a treasure" and telling Kaladin to take care of it. 

 

Apparently there's even "compouding" of strength if some KR picked up a honorblade that the power of their order is based from , and you can even do this 

You can do so many cool stuff with Honorblades. And it's probably easier to gather honorblades than bond with multiple sprens to get multiple surges

It's easier to gain access to surgebinding and stormlight augmentation abilities with honorblades, sure. There is the downside though that you use stormlight a lot more quickly, and you can only heal physical wounds. But hey, unless you're planning on fighting Knight Radiants, shardbearers or crazy lunatics trying to charge hemalurgic spikes, I guess it doesn't matter that much. 

[goody153]

15 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

There's still a bond with the shardblade with honorblades, it's just different than a sprenblade's bond. Here's how I understand it: With an honorblade, the connection is weaker. You only get surgebinding and basic stormlight augmentation abilities. The blade doesn't disappear when you drop it unintentionally and the bond is, in fact, reliant on you physically holding it. The only exception is when you dematerialize it. Otherwise, once you let go, you are no longer bonded to it, and can gain nothing from it until you wield it again.

It's easier to gain access to surgebinding and stormlight augmentation abilities with honorblades, sure. There is the downside though that you use stormlight a lot more quickly, and you can only heal physical wounds. But hey, unless you're planning on fighting Knight Radiants, shardbearers or crazy lunatics trying to charge hemalurgic spikes, I guess it doesn't matter that much. 

Also i don't think that's necessarily true that you needed to exactly hold the honorblade to be able to use it. I mean Szeth would use surgebinding without actually physically holding the blade(during his assassination in Jah Keved he went full hand-to-hand on everybody at one point while surgebinding, there's another instance where he was floating down a mountain can't remember which one and he was using surgebinding but i don't remember him summoning the honorblade that time)  and also there's the thing where he can summon and unsummon the blade(i mean Honorblade certainly have bonding process since Szeth could make it function like Shardblade except the shattering when dropped). Though i might be misremembering these details.

Well if you are already a KR to begin with you already hold the abilities of healing from a shardblade through the KR stormlight absorbing instead of the honorblade absorbing while fighting somebody who is a Radiant or something then it shouldn't matter. I just meant Honorblade's is the easier way to collect surgebinding compared to bonding with multiple sprens from different orders(which from a WoB it is possible just prolly really diffiicult)

Edited September 18, 2016 by goody153

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, goody153 said:

Also i don't think that's necessarily true that you needed to exactly hold the honorblade to be able to use it. I mean Szeth would use surgebinding without actually physically holding the blade(during his assassination in Jah Keved he went full hand-to-hand on everybody at one point while surgebinding, there's another instance where he was floating down a mountain can't remember which one and he was using surgebinding but i don't remember him summoning the honorblade that time)  and also there's the thing where he can summon and unsummon the blade(i mean Honorblade certainly have bonding process since Szeth could make it function like Shardblade except the shattering when dropped). Though i might be misremembering these details.

I did address this.

16 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

in fact, reliant on you physically holding it. The only exception is when you dematerialize it. Otherwise, once you let go, you are no longer bonded to it, and can gain nothing from it until you wield it again.

IF you, being its wielder, dematerialize it, it will still leave you bond to it. Otherwise, if it is materialized, you need to be holding it.

5 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Well if you are already a KR to begin with you already hold the abilities of healing from a shardblade through the KR stormlight absorbing instead of the honorblade absorbing while fighting somebody who is a Radiant or something then it shouldn't matter. I just meant Honorblade's is the easier way to collect surgebinding compared to bonding with multiple sprens from different orders(which from a WoB it is possible just prolly really diffiicult)

Fair enough. I thought you were referring to using the Honorblades as a base. In that case, the efficiency would still be a slight problem for the surges the Honorblade would allow you to bind, along with the fact that whatever spren you are bonded to might take an aversion to it.