Which characters will be more/less important?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

Considering the fact we are already getting a redemption story with both Eshonai and Szeth: it'd be great if Moash did not add himself to the lot. I also fear Moash's personal voice would sound too much like Kaladin: I'd really rather get Danlan. We have so few women, I'd also be interesting to add another one. While it is true we do not know if Danlan truly is a Diagramist, but it'd be a nice addition to the story arcs.

I would be happy with something from Danlan, but as with Adro, Mrall and Graves, I believe she is too minor.

I can buy the redemption overload (although Eshonai does not need to redeem herself, IMO, since she was basically corrupted, which wasn't really her fault). Szeth will probably have one, though. So maybe Moash stays with the Diagram? Either way, he is an important established character, so his POV would make sense.

The voice can actually be a reason for Brandon to want to do him. Moash can work as a parallell to Kaladin. They both have suffered losses, both have a hatres for lighteyes, but they develop differently. Every individual is unique, and Brandon may want to show that by taking two similar characters and develop them differently. Moash has potential to turn into a tragic character, I think. 

Another woman would be great though. I cant think of any besides Jasnah that would fit the bill though.

Or maybe Brandon really meant what he said, and we get a character who we never have had any kind of POV from, like Rock, Elhokar, Aesudan or someone.

[Argel he/him]

I agree with maxal that we already have too many redemption stories. So maybe Moash won't be a redemption story -- maybe he will keep making bad choices and turn into a tragic character that also gives us insight into the Diagramists.

[Guest]

I would also state I do not think Moash adds anything to the story. As I said earlier, his voice seems too similar to Kaladin's, it isn't different enough to warrant a POV. I'd rather those precious POV chapters to be spent on someone interesting, someone cunning, someone with an agenda, someone who's actually a villain for the right reasons, not yet another angry young man who hates the world.

I'd rather get glimpses of Moash sinking deeper into the Diagramists up to a point of no return and while he may muses over the bad choice he makes, but has to go with them up until he is undone. 

This being said, it may be the author has plans for Moash and it may be he is one of those surprising characters with an increased role we are going to read: I honestly do not know. From my current perspective though, I'd rather he decided to work on other characters. Amarama and/or Danlan seems like good candidate... I means I always wanted to know what was Danlan's deal: it is obvious she had an agenda and she is hiding something. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I'd love Amaram to have a bunch of chapters, since I really like him. 

I also recall a WoB stating that Rock would have a POV section in a future book. Maybe he is the POV? Although I cant really see how he would contribute, since he is in the same place as Dalinar, Navani, Shallan and Adolin, who all have POVs. I think this character is someone who is not in Urithiru. 

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

7 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

I'd love Amaram to have a bunch of chapters, since I really like him. 

I also recall a WoB stating that Rock would have a POV section in a future book. Maybe he is the POV? Although I cant really see how he would contribute, since he is in the same place as Dalinar, Navani, Shallan and Adolin, who all have POVs. I think this character is someone who is not in Urithiru. 

The other characters in Urithiru will be busy with politics. A Bridge Four perspective showing them with their new squire powers could be beneficial. It's also always nice to get someone without an Alethi or Vorin upbringing. 

I think this book will have more views of the rest of the world than any others so far, with learning about shshshsh and Szeth traveling to Shinowar. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

I'd love Amaram to have a bunch of chapters, since I really like him. 

I also recall a WoB stating that Rock would have a POV section in a future book. Maybe he is the POV? Although I cant really see how he would contribute, since he is in the same place as Dalinar, Navani, Shallan and Adolin, who all have POVs. I think this character is someone who is not in Urithiru. 

Rock POV is likely to be similar to Teft's POV: just a few paragraphs to give us his backstory. Brandon has said he would do a POV chapter for several Bridge 4 members. It won't be a full arc, just a one time thing.

On the contrary, I think this character likely is in Urithiru. As I said in my previous messages, one of the lessons learned, for Brandon, in writing WoK Prime was not to scattered his viewpoints around too much. Having too many viewpoints with various characters in several locations and little ties in between them make the story less dynamic and less interesting to read. From his own assessment, WoK Prime was... a boring book. Not that the story arcs he chose to do necessarily were boring, but the execution led to a boring tale. Hence, he has moved several viewpoints to later books, he has moved the main cast together, onto the Shattered Plains such as to make them interact. This is why Dalinar, Adolin and Kaladin are on the Shattered Plains. 

With Kaladin already being away, with Szeth/Eshonai being outside the main cast, I doubt Brandon would add another character perspective from an outside location. Therefore this character either has to be relevant to Kaladin's story arc, it may be a requirement to make it more interesting because Kaladin flying across Alethkar doesn't currently sound very interesting, or it may be a character relevant to the Uritihiru story arc. Or maybe it will be relevant to someone else, but it won't be yet another character in a foreign nation doing stuff unrelated to the main narrative. Nothing is ever impossible, but I doubt it. Book 3 looks scattered around enough as it is, it doesn't need more scattering around.

13 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

The other characters in Urithiru will be busy with politics. A Bridge Four perspective showing them with their new squire powers could be beneficial. It's also always nice to get someone without an Alethi or Vorin upbringing. 

I think this book will have more views of the rest of the world than any others so far, with learning about shshshsh and Szeth traveling to Shinowar. 

Which is why I thought finding out what present day uncle Toh is actually doing may be interesting (if he lives).... but I am trying to catches straws in haystack here. As for Bridge 4, with Kaladin away, we aren't going to see much of them I am afraid... There may be an occasional POV, but I do not see how they can fit within the story: they existed because Kaladin was there to provide perspective, without him there is just no other recurrent POV character to do it.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Rock POV is likely to be similar to Teft's POV: just a few paragraphs to give us his backstory. Brandon has said he would do a POV chapter for several Bridge 4 members. It won't be a full arc, just a one time thing.

On the contrary, I think this character likely is in Urithiru. As I said in my previous messages, one of the lessons learned, for Brandon, in writing WoK Prime was not to scattered his viewpoints around too much. Having too many viewpoints with various characters in several locations and little ties in between them make the story less dynamic and less interesting to read. From his own assessment, WoK Prime was... a boring book. Not that the story arcs he chose to do necessarily were boring, but the execution led to a boring tale. Hence, he has moved several viewpoints to later books, he has moved the main cast together, onto the Shattered Plains such as to make them interact. This is why Dalinar, Adolin and Kaladin are on the Shattered Plains. 

With Kaladin already being away, with Szeth/Eshonai being outside the main cast, I doubt Brandon would add another character perspective from an outside location. Therefore this character either has to be relevant to Kaladin's story arc, it may be a requirement to make it more interesting because Kaladin flying across Alethkar doesn't currently sound very interesting, or it may be a character relevant to the Uritihiru story arc. Or maybe it will be relevant to someone else, but it won't be yet another character in a foreign nation doing stuff unrelated to the main narrative. Nothing is ever impossible, but I doubt it. Book 3 looks scattered around enough as it is, it doesn't need more scattering around.

I agree about that the POV may be in Urithiru, and if it is, it will most likely be Ialai, and she will get about as much time as Sadeas got in WoR. I cant really see any other characters who cannot be covered by Shallan/Dalinar/Adolin/Navani. Possibly Mraize or Iyatil, since they are so secretive, but I think that depends on how much they know, and how much Brandon wants to reveal. In that case, I´d rather take Mraize. Amaram might be there as well, and then he is a candidate.

I still dont think we should rule out the non-Urithiru cast. Jasnah and Wit will most likely show up, and a Jasnah POV is entirely possible. This is why I am suspecting Moash as well: he is with important people who does not have a POV (except for Mr T interlude), and has been built up for something. A POV from him would be logical. I think that since many of the main characters are established, Brandon can afford to spread things out a little. Other authors, like GRRM has done it, and it works. A non-Urithiru POV should not be ruled out, and if it is, I bet it is either Jasnah, Moash or a new character. 

And about Szeth and Eshonai: we know Szeth will be off in Shinovar, but we dont know anything about Eshonai, or her whereabouts. She fell into a chasm, and can reasonably pop up at Urithiru. Then it is one character less hanging out outside of the main bunch. Plus, if Eshonai will be a major player, I guess she will have to befriend Dalinar and team sooner or later. 

[Guest]

Just now, Chull #445 said:

I agree about that the POV may be in Urithiru, and if it is, it will most likely be Ialai, and she will get about as much time as Sadeas got in WoR. I cant really see any other characters who cannot be covered by Shallan/Dalinar/Adolin/Navani. Possibly Mraize or Iyatil, since they are so secretive, but I think that depends on how much they know, and how much Brandon wants to reveal. In that case, I´d rather take Mraize. Amaram might be there as well, and then he is a candidate.

I still dont think we should rule out the non-Urithiru cast. Jasnah and Wit will most likely show up, and a Jasnah POV is entirely possible. This is why I am suspecting Moash as well: he is with important people who does not have a POV (except for Mr T interlude), and has been built up for something. A POV from him would be logical. I think that since many of the main characters are established, Brandon can afford to spread things out a little. Other authors, like GRRM has done it, and it works. A non-Urithiru POV should not be ruled out, and if it is, I bet it is either Jasnah, Moash or a new character. 

And about Szeth and Eshonai: we know Szeth will be off in Shinovar, but we dont know anything about Eshonai, or her whereabouts. She fell into a chasm, and can reasonably pop up at Urithiru. Then it is one character less hanging out outside of the main bunch. Plus, if Eshonai will be a major player, I guess she will have to befriend Dalinar and team sooner or later. 

I agree about Ialai, she seems like a logical choice and while Mraize/Iyatil certainly are interesting, giving them POV now may remove too much of the mystery surrounding the Ghostblood activities. It seems more probable the author will prefer having us figure it out at the same pace as Shallan and co. Amaram, I see as a candidate for an occasional POV character or perhaps an interlude one. He could even get the interlude novella. Ialai, I think it more likely to have a presence similar to Sadeas back in WoR, thus making her an occasional POV character.

Jasnah's POV is certainly possible, but I doubt her arc will be as deep as others think it may end up being. I also seriously doubt it will feature her travelling with Wit: my thoughts are people are putting too much thought into it. There are four tertiary characters, one surprise novella from a new character and one interlude novella to allocate to various characters. Brandon mentioned those, except for the Part 2 novella, should be picked among: Adolin, Jasnah, Navani, Szeth and Eshonai. It isn't clear if the interlude novella character can be taken out of these or not, but these are 5 characters for 4 tertiary characters positions. So far, Navani has not been a tertiary character or I don't think she was. She only had a handful of POV which would mark her as an occasional POV character which is why I am reluctant to rank as one of the tertiary character, but it may be what she got is sufficient for one of those lesser positions. This, I cannot say. Therefore, we can expect Adolin, Szeth, Eshonai and probably Jasnah to fill out the four tertiary characters spot: not all have the same number of POV. Some have only a few chapters, other have POV time nearly as important as the third main character. So far, Szeth and Eshonai have only been interlude characters... so are they the same again? If so, then who are the other tertiary characters? Adolin, Jasnah. Navani and who? It may be some of those characters, despite being called tertiary, have less POV then recurring interlude characters: I certainly do not see how Szeth/Eshonai story arc could fit within the main narrative unless they end up meeting with another character which currently seems unlikely. 

All this rambling to say I do expect Jasnah to have POV time, though perhaps not as much as others are expecting. 

The outside of Urithiru POV time are likely to be filled with the interlude characters and within the interlude, anyone can get a POV. So it may be Moash will get one chapter, but I certainly do not expect more than that.

Eshonai and Szeth are to be major players because, I suspect, the Parshendis and the Shins have a role to play in the ending climax: they are the characters going to bring those into actions. Therefore, they may never have strong contact with the remaining of the cast. Also, despite the fact Szeth/Eshonai are focus characters, their entire story arc is probably going to end up with a lesser word count than Adolin's entire arc who isn't a focus character. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

The question is who the new character is. 

[Guest]

Just now, Chull #445 said:

The question is who the new character is. 

Probably not Ialai... She wouldn't fit within the lore/world-building low in action Brandon told us to expect for Part 2. Aseduan wouldn't fit either, so it has to be someone else... Unexpected. Also, he never said it was someone we met before, so we may never guess.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

Probably not Ialai... She wouldn't fit within the lore/world-building low in action Brandon told us to expect for Part 2. Aseduan wouldn't fit either, so it has to be someone else... Unexpected. Also, he never said it was someone we met before, so we may never guess.

I do hope it is a new character. Or Axies. I can always do with more Axies. But since he has had an interlude, that´s unlikely. 

EDIT: Or a chull. We will get 200 pages chull lore, about chull food, chull behavior, what the chulls think about life, the universe and everything, and such.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Chull #445

[Guest]

Just now, Chull #445 said:

I do hope it is a new character. Or Axies. I can always do with more Axies. But since he has had an interlude, that´s unlikely. 

He clearly said someone who had never had a POV. It is why I thought of uncle Toh... He'd fit within the lore/world-building thing-y while keeping a link with the main characters, but huh he's probably dead.

[geralt]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Probably not Ialai... She wouldn't fit within the lore/world-building low in action Brandon told us to expect for Part 2. Aseduan wouldn't fit either, so it has to be someone else... Unexpected. Also, he never said it was someone we met before, so we may never guess.

Could it be a totally new character who is/will become a radiant? 

[Guest]

Just now, geralt said:

Could it be a totally new character who is/will become a radiant? 

It could be. We are supposed to met several minor KR going into the next book. We are also supposed to have another Windrunners say the oaths Kaladin has already said while we do know we aren't getting the 4th ideal.

Maybe the new character will be this character. It could he'll even be a member of Bridge 4 thus giving insights on the group which I do not see how we'll get them otherwise. If a Bridge 4 member is becoming a Windrunner, then I have no idea who it may be. From the top of my head, I'd say Skar as he seemed the most pro-active in protecting Adolin during the Plateau fight, but huh anyone's guess is as good as mine.  

Oh another clue, the sentence from SA3 Brandon gave us... I always thought it sounded like the new character as it didn't sound like any known one. In fact, it sounded like the new Windrunner. Here it is:

"If I am to become like a delicate cloud upon the sky, I must first convince the ground that I am not abandoning her. Like a worried lover, she must be comforted and reassured that I will return following my dramatic and regal ascent."

This may be the clue we were looking for. This is a POV character and this clearly isn't one we have met yet. It sounds like a Windrunner, but is it an occasional POV character or the Part 2 novella one?

 

[Naurock]

Venli

[DSC01 he/him]

I was just thinking about Jasnah this morning and her potential place in Oathbringer, and something occurred to me about the structure of the books.

I suppose we could have a lengthy discussion about just how much the structure of each volume will echo that of the last and whether or not that restricts the flow of the story. Personally, I would argue against the idea that a rigid structure is unnecessarily restrictive (for this series, anyway); rather, a rigid structure helps keep a massive series from going off the rails, and the length of each volume prevents it from being unnecessarily restrictive. But that's all beside the point.

So, we've certainly all noticed that Szeth's opening scene in TWoK was retold from Jasnah's perspective in WoR and can probably expect another such retelling in Oathbringer. However, it is posible that there is an end-of-book "rhyme," so to speak, that has not become obvious yet. If I'm not just imagining that, then Jasnah's reappearance at the end of WoR might echo Taln's at the end of TWoK. If they are intended to be parallel scenes, then it is also possible that Jasnah's presence in Oathbringer will be similar to Taln's in WoR.

I, for one, expected more to be made of Taln in WoR, coming out of TWoK. I wasn't disappointed by the way his character was handled, but it also wasn't what I expected. Now, similarly, the end of WoR made me think that Jasnah coming back will be a huge deal, but maybe she will hardly be a presence at all.

Just a thought. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I was just thinking about Jasnah this morning and her potential place in Oathbringer, and something occurred to me about the structure of the books.

I suppose we could have a lengthy discussion about just how much the structure of each volume will echo that of the last and whether or not that restricts the flow of the story. Personally, I would argue against the idea that a rigid structure is unnecessarily restrictive (for this series, anyway); rather, a rigid structure helps keep a massive series from going off the rails, and the length of each volume prevents it from being unnecessarily restrictive. But that's all beside the point.

So, we've certainly all noticed that Szeth's opening scene in TWoK was retold from Jasnah's perspective in WoR and can probably expect another such retelling in Oathbringer. However, it is posible that there is an end-of-book "rhyme," so to speak, that has not become obvious yet. If I'm not just imagining that, then Jasnah's reappearance at the end of WoR might echo Taln's at the end of TWoK. If they are intended to be parallel scenes, then it is also possible that Jasnah's presence in Oathbringer will be similar to Taln's in WoR.

I, for one, expected more to be made of Taln in WoR, coming out of TWoK. I wasn't disappointed by the way his character was handled, but it also wasn't what I expected. Now, similarly, the end of WoR made me think that Jasnah coming back will be a huge deal, but maybe she will hardly be a presence at all.

Just a thought. 

I have been among those having shed the most ink onto the relevance of the book structure and how it may end up being rigid. Of course, only two books into the series, it is hard to draw macroscopic trends, we are all going to agree with this. 

I must still make one statement with respect to Jasnah: "Do people think her role will be important going into book 3 because we have been told, in advance, she would eventually be one of the major players or do we expect it purely based on how the first two books were constructed?"

For my part, I have to admit I never expected Jasnah to play a decisive role within the story and if the ending of WoR suggested her role may increase from silent mentor to occasional POV character, I never thought she would grow much more beyond that. Not for the next book this is. Of course, since then I have learned about her future role within the series which led me wondering: how big of a role can the back five major players have within the first arc? How is this planned structure going to play out, in the long run, considering several of the future major players currently are characters within the story? How much page time is the author authorizing them to have considering they have very large arcs waiting for them several more years down the road?

Already, others have tried to break down the 400 000 words of SA3 into several characters which had for results for some to come to the conclusion supporting characters such as Szeth, Eshonai, Navani, Adolin and Jasnah would not be allowed many words. This, of course, has been purely based on how much words were previously spent on the main three characters and worked with the assumption Kaladin would not lose any word count, Dalinar would gain a lot and Shallan would perhaps dwindle a little. For my part, I now think the total words count of the main three characters will roughly remain the same, but it will be allocated differently. If it increases slightly, it will be because Dalinar's flashbacks were longer than expected and it will fail within the elongated page time the overall book has.

As for Taln, I too expected he'd be a bigger deal, but in the absence of strong expectations, I didn't mind much. I am more trouble over the fact he is to play a major role later one as he is crazy. I certainly think there are several plot arcs we currently are thinking will be a much bigger deal than they will be. Here are a few:

1) Kaladin's return to Heartstone and reuniting with his family

2) Jasnah's overall arc

3) Adolin being found as the murderer of Sadeas

I think those three arcs will be wrapped up more quickly than anticipated as neither strikes to me as decisive plot points. What happens afterwards will be much more important, I think.

I personally do not expect Jasnah to have a large role. I expect her role will be much smaller than several people are anticipating, but just as with everything: I could be wrong. I like your thoughts and your link with the ending of the previous book though.

[Argel he/him]

The part about everything Jasnah has learned  in the CR might be useless coudl suggest a diminished role. Though Hoid could bring her up to speed and seed some very relevant ideas, so it could either way. Though having a book in the back 5 suggests a smaller role in the first 5.

[What's a Seawolf?]

On 8/16/2016 at 11:41 AM, Naurock said:

Venli

Agreed.  She came off as super creepy and definitely evil in WoR, and what part of the world needs exploring and worldbuilding more than any other at the moment?  Things relating to Odium.  Now that we're in book 3, I think it's the time Brandon will begin working more of Odium and forces into the main narrative.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Argel said:

The part about everything Jasnah has learned  in the CR might be useless coudl suggest a diminished role. Though Hoid could bring her up to speed and seed some very relevant ideas, so it could either way. Though having a book in the back 5 suggests a smaller role in the first 5.

I have to ask, why do people expect Hoid will remain with Jasnah long enough for it to be an arc? Sure they agreed to travel together, for a while, but I certainly never expected to read them together going into the next book. Perhaps I have the wrong expectations, but Hoid is so centered around doing his own stuff, I never once considered the possibility he may be with Jasnah for a prolonged period of time.

[Argel he/him]

I expect either no more scenes, or one where he explains some things and then heads off somewhere. There could be two -- them talking along the way, then later on arriving together somewhere. Considering someone else is going to be covering lore, I'm not expecting much. But maybe Brandon is going to give us lore and/or differing viewpoints from different characters. IT's also supposed to be a long trip, so we may see something along the way to help indicate what they are up to.

Hoid did wonder all the way out there to meet her -- or maybe he just knew he needed to be there. But that does imply a longer conversation than we the usual hit and run Hoid likes to do. That or Jasnah has something he needs/wants. Though how much of it we see could be a different matter, or saved for her Jasnah's flashback book.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Argel said:

I expect either no more scenes, or one where he explains some things and then heads off somewhere. There could be two -- them talking along the way, then later on arriving together somewhere. Considering someone else is going to be covering lore, I'm not expecting much. But maybe Brandon is going to give us lore and/or differing viewpoints from different characters. IT's also supposed to be a long trip, so we may see something along the way to help indicate what they are up to.

Hoid did wonder all the way out there to meet her -- or maybe he just knew he needed to be there. But that does imply a longer conversation than we the usual hit and run Hoid likes to do. That or Jasnah has something he needs/wants. Though how much of it we see could be a different matter, or saved for her Jasnah's flashback book.

 

Brandon would not use Hoid to explore the lore within SA. He has stated Hoid wouldn't be much explored, as a character, until his own series, Dragonsteel which is several decades down the way. Besides, I do not think he'd be a good choice as by lore, I do feel Brandon means "world-building and beliefs across Roshar" for which Hoid wouldn't work. 

I don't personally expect anything else than small cameos for Hoid.