Roshar vs Scadrial

[IndigoAjah]

Maybe the average Mistborn ever, but I don't think we are proposing a time war!

[CaptainRyan]

1. We kind of do know that thugs are faster than shardbearers. Thugs consistently blitz normal humans. Shardplate users have zero speed showings. Shardplate makes one stronger, but it doesn't enhance reflexes the way pewter does. 

 

I am not sure if you are saying "faster" as in running speed or reflexes. If it is the former I would submit that we do not know if the average thug or the average shardplate wearer would win in a race.

 

As to reflexes, I definitely agree that pewter provides innate balance whereas shardplate does not. OTOH, a trained shardplate wearer definitely has faster reflexes than a normal human. I do not know if it is greater than a thug burning (or flaring) pewter. A novice/trained thug would have an advantage over a new shardplate wearer as the innate benefits of allomancy are, basically, a passive effect but once the shardplate wearer has some experience I am not sure which is the superior in terms of combat speed.

[Pathfinder]

I am not sure if you are saying "faster" as in running speed or reflexes. If it is the former I would submit that we do not know if the average thug or the average shardplate wearer would win in a race.

 

As to reflexes, I definitely agree that pewter provides innate balance whereas shardplate does not. OTOH, a trained shardplate wearer definitely has faster reflexes than a normal human. I do not know if it is greater than a thug burning (or flaring) pewter. A novice/trained thug would have an advantage over a new shardplate wearer as the innate benefits of allomancy are, basically, a passive effect but once the shardplate wearer has some experience I am not sure which is the superior in terms of combat speed.

The only times we see a shardbearer have faster than normal reflexes is Dalinar. He is an exception as he was a proto radiant, and was stated he could seemingly get more out of the armor than anyone else. He has pulled the same feats without armor as with armor (catching the chasmfiend claw in armor, and catching Szeth's honorblade out of armor) Yes you do run faster than humans without armor as we see from Adolin, Elhokar, and Dalinar out running their cohorts on numerous occasions but that is a strength enhancement from the legs. That does not imply reacting faster. Also the strength increase is in order to move a far heavier load. A shardbearer needs to build up to speed. Shardplate also does not bequeath endurance. You get tired swinging a giant sword regardless how strong you are. So pewter burners are lighter, react faster, last longer, and have better balance to employ said speed. 

[CaptainRyan]

The only times we see a shardbearer have faster than normal reflexes is Dalinar. He is an exception as he was a proto radiant, and was stated he could seemingly get more out of the armor than anyone else. He has pulled the same feats without armor as with armor (catching the chasmfiend claw in armor, and catching Szeth's honorblade out of armor) Yes you do run faster than humans without armor as we see from Adolin, Elhokar, and Dalinar out running their cohorts on numerous occasions but that is a strength enhancement from the legs. That does not imply reacting faster. Also the strength increase is in order to move a far heavier load. A shardbearer needs to build up to speed. Shardplate also does not bequeath endurance. You get tired swinging a giant sword regardless how strong you are. So pewter burners are lighter, react faster, last longer, and have better balance to employ said speed. 

 

Gavilar vs Szeth shows that a shardplate wearer is fast enough to punch one of the most skilled hand-to-hand warriors in all of Roshar directly in the face even when that warrior (Szeth) is filled with Stormlight. If Gavilar was merely stronger, but not faster, then I submit that there would have been no way he could have landed such a solid blow on such a skilled warrior who was also magically enhanced to be much faster than normal.

[asterion137]

Gavilar vs Szeth shows that a shardplate wearer is fast enough to punch one of the most skilled hand-to-hand warriors in all of Roshar directly in the face even when that warrior (Szeth) is filled with Stormlight. If Gavilar was merely stronger, but not faster, then I submit that there would have been no way he could have landed such a solid blow on such a skilled warrior who was also magically enhanced to be much faster than normal.

Szeth did not display much enhanced speed at that point. I think most people agree that he got a lot stronger between the prologue and the main timeline, since by WoK he is easily dismantling 3 shardbearers and a small army, while in the prologue he had a lot of trouble with one shardbearer. Besides, Kaladin vastly outpaces several shardbearers during the arena fight, and even then he was limiting himself so no one could see his stormlight. Pewter burners could probably do so too, since pewter seems to grant similar boosts of strength and speed

[CaptainRyan]

Szeth did not display much enhanced speed at that point. I think most people agree that he got a lot stronger between the prologue and the main timeline, since by WoK he is easily dismantling 3 shardbearers and a small army, while in the prologue he had a lot of trouble with one shardbearer. Besides, Kaladin vastly outpaces several shardbearers during the arena fight, and even then he was limiting himself so no one could see his stormlight. Pewter burners could probably do so too, since pewter seems to grant similar boosts of strength and speed

 

How could he get stronger? He does not have Oaths to speak or a spren to grant new "levels".

[A Windspren]

I think you're all forgetting that:

 

a. Kanda can't kill people, so using them to replace leaders/generals is impossible if you can't kill them in the middle of a warcamp, get the body to a secure location for a few hours for the Kandra to eat and recreate it, and get them back into the warcamp before they have to attend any meetings or battles.

 

b. Soothers/Rioters can only affect a few dozen people at once, so using them against an entire army is useless

 

c. Koloss aren't nearly as powerful after their blood frenzy, and charging them before they get angry can easily beat them, as they have no coordination.

 

d. A significant fraction of Allomancers were nobility, who wouldn't fight, and skaa, who couldn't reveal that they were Mistings.

[IndigoAjah]

a) Kandra only can't people because of a contract that by W&W Era doesn't exist. We know they CAN kill. We've seen it.

 

fair point, though they still have a role to play, and it depends how many you have

 

c) think it will take a few horrible defeats to get the chance to learn this

 

d) Noble Allomancers DEFINITELY fight. Demonstrably, in every single book. Male and female. 

[Knight Oblivion]

I think you're all forgetting that:

a. Kanda can't kill people, so using them to replace leaders/generals is impossible if you can't kill them in the middle of a warcamp, get the body to a secure location for a few hours for the Kandra to eat and recreate it, and get them back into the warcamp before they have to attend any meetings or battles.

b. Soothers/Rioters can only affect a few dozen people at once, so using them against an entire army is useless

c. Koloss aren't nearly as powerful after their blood frenzy, and charging them before they get angry can easily beat them, as they have no coordination.

d. A significant fraction of Allomancers were nobility, who wouldn't fight, and skaa, who couldn't reveal that they were Mistings.

For the latter part, I'd imagine the Scadrians would be willing and able to impress any Mistings and Mistborn to help against any war for survival. You have the entire Steel Ministry to enforce this.

Anyways, what everybody also seems to forget is that Scadrial has a higher gravity than Roshar (the former an Earth analog so it would likely have the same gravity as Earth while Roshar is 70% that) and that Scadrial is more culturally homogeneous.

Since humans in both planets seem to be of similar relative strengths, this would mean that Scadrians are 43% stronger than Rosharans mass per mass (alternatively Rosharans are 30% weaker, it depends on the frame of reference).

The cultural homogeneity would make logistics and orders much more simple for the Scadrians. The Rosharans have a ridiculous mess of cultures and languages that they would have to cobble together to be a unified world fighting force.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Knight Oblivion

[asterion137]

How could he get stronger? He does not have Oaths to speak or a spren to grant new "levels".

He gets more experienced/gains more gems to store light most likely. I don't really know how he does it, but he casually destroys multiple full shardbearers in WoR when he was fighting evenly with one in the WoK prologue, so i think we can assume he gets stronger/better/more experienced

[IndigoAjah]

Also, even if Kandra couldn't kill people, you send in a Mistborn or a Ferruchemist assassin to do the actual killing

 

 

Roshar, of course, could use Lightweavers to do a similar if less expertise form of espionage

[asterion137]

I think you're all forgetting that:

 

a. Kanda can't kill people, so using them to replace leaders/generals is impossible if you can't kill them in the middle of a warcamp, get the body to a secure location for a few hours for the Kandra to eat and recreate it, and get them back into the warcamp before they have to attend any meetings or battles.

 

b. Soothers/Rioters can only affect a few dozen people at once, so using them against an entire army is useless

 

c. Koloss aren't nearly as powerful after their blood frenzy, and charging them before they get angry can easily beat them, as they have no coordination.

 

d. A significant fraction of Allomancers were nobility, who wouldn't fight, and skaa, who couldn't reveal that they were Mistings.

Kandra won't even be needed for this, but the only reason that they don't kill because The Lord Ruler doesn't want them to. If his empire is under attack, he could alter the Contract to suit his needs.

 

A low end estimate of the numbers of soothers or rioters would be 5,000 (each great house had at least half a dozen, and they can't possibly control more than a tenth of the world's allomancers). That makes 10,000+ emotional allomancers. 10,000 emotional allomancers can influence close to half a million soldiers.

 

Koloss blood frenzy lasts for over six hours. No army of average joes can kill a koloss army, since they get angry when they are attacked, and Cett's army tried the same thing and lost two thousand men to a garrison of 500 koloss.

 

Nobles would be drafted into the army by the steel ministry. We have seen armies draft noblemen in the past.

 

Edit: Copy/paste error fixed

Edited May 27, 2016 by asterion137

[Charlie.x.3000]

He gets more experienced/gains more gems to store light most likely. I don't really know how he does it, but he casually destroys multiple full shardbearers in WoR when he was fighting evenly with one in the WoK prologue, so i think we can assume he gets stronger/better/more experienced

That one shard-bearer was also Gavilar, who was a renowned duelist, and expert at the shardblade. Adolin and Dalinar are related to him, you would think that Gavilar also has the talent for dueling.

[asterion137]

That one shard-bearer was also Gavilar, who was a renowned duelist, and expert at the shardblade. Adolin and Dalinar are related to him, you would think that Gavilar also has the talent for dueling.

Thats what I was thinking until Szeth dismantled adolin twice, who was reportedly better than Gavilar. He also beats protoradiant-Dalinar

[CaptainRyan]

He gets more experienced/gains more gems to store light most likely. I don't really know how he does it, but he casually destroys multiple full shardbearers in WoR when he was fighting evenly with one in the WoK prologue, so i think we can assume he gets stronger/better/more experienced

 

Or, Gavilar was a better fighter than those two Shardbearers in Jah Keved. Gavilar had spent years fighting a war of unification while wearing Shardplate so he was probably one of the more experienced plate wearers at the time.

 

Also, if anything, after the fight with Gavilar, Szeth goes through a long period of not fighting/ fighting garbage opponents so I would argue that his skills might have atrophied a bit from when he had fought Gavilar.

 

While I do not have a solid WoB to back up my claim I think it is not unreasonable to assume that an experienced Shardplate wearer can channel the strength of Shardplate into speed. That much strength, that is not muscle mass like Feruchemy, basically guarantees faster movement and, once a Shardplate wearer has experience, they would be much faster than your average fighter.

 

Basically, if Gavilar was normal human speed there would have been no way for him to punch Szeth. The difference in normal human speed, combined with Szeth's expertise in close combat would have made it impossible for a regular fellow to land that solid of a blow. IMO of course haha

[asterion137]

Or, Gavilar was a better fighter than those two Shardbearers in Jah Keved. Gavilar had spent years fighting a war of unification while wearing Shardplate so he was probably one of the more experienced plate wearers at the time.

 

Also, if anything, after the fight with Gavilar, Szeth goes through a long period of not fighting/ fighting garbage opponents so I would argue that his skills might have atrophied a bit from when he had fought Gavilar.

 

While I do not have a solid WoB to back up my claim I think it is not unreasonable to assume that an experienced Shardplate wearer can channel the strength of Shardplate into speed. That much strength, that is not muscle mass like Feruchemy, basically guarantees faster movement and, once a Shardplate wearer has experience, they would be much faster than your average fighter.

 

Basically, if Gavilar was normal human speed there would have been no way for him to punch Szeth. The difference in normal human speed, combined with Szeth's expertise in close combat would have made it impossible for a regular fellow to land that solid of a blow. IMO of course haha

Gavilar was swinging and missing for most of the fight. He only tried the punch when szeth was too close to stop it. Gavilar didn't need superhuman reflexes to hit Szeth since Szeth went in super close and the superhuman muscular strength of the Shardplate would have made the blow undodgable by Szeth. You don't need superhuman reflexes to make your punch move fast and Gavilar was seasoned enough to anticipate Szeth's rush. It wasn't superhuman speed.

[Argel]

Edit1:  You'd think Szeth would know better than to get up close, though maybe he was underestimating his opponent at that time.He definitely seems more "battle hardened" later on (i.e. real world experience fighting/killing). Of course, less and less sanity can alter fighting styles too.

 

Edit2: Also, even if soothers cannot affect an entire army, they can certainly affect portions of it, which could be used to break  ranks, cause the sentries to relax and miss stuff, etc. Want to sneak into the enemy base, sooth the guards....

Edited May 27, 2016 by Argel

[Pathfinder]

Gavilar vs Szeth shows that a shardplate wearer is fast enough to punch one of the most skilled hand-to-hand warriors in all of Roshar directly in the face even when that warrior (Szeth) is filled with Stormlight. If Gavilar was merely stronger, but not faster, then I submit that there would have been no way he could have landed such a solid blow on such a skilled warrior who was also magically enhanced to be much faster than normal.

Way of Kings page 32

Szeth underestimated his opponent. The king stepped into Szeth's attack, trusting his helm to absorb the blow. Just as Szeth hit the helm a second time - shattering it - Gavilar punched with his off hand, slamming his gauntleted fist into Szeth's face

 

So it was a sucker punch that Szeth didn't expect. Gavilar willingly let Szeth hit him, trusting that he could handle the damage to his suit, in exchange for possibly ending the fight for good. The sucker punch did not rely on speed, but surprise. 

 

Szeth did not display much enhanced speed at that point. I think most people agree that he got a lot stronger between the prologue and the main timeline, since by WoK he is easily dismantling 3 shardbearers and a small army, while in the prologue he had a lot of trouble with one shardbearer. Besides, Kaladin vastly outpaces several shardbearers during the arena fight, and even then he was limiting himself so no one could see his stormlight. Pewter burners could probably do so too, since pewter seems to grant similar boosts of strength and speed

That was due inadvertently to a thread I wrote a long time ago where I was trying to figure out how much stormlight is used to accomplish various goals. Basically it took almost all of Szeth's stormlight to barely heal his jaw while much later in the book and next book, he is healing grievous wounds in seconds with far less cost. 

 

How could he get stronger? He does not have Oaths to speak or a spren to grant new "levels".

Please refer to my above response

 

I think you're all forgetting that:

 

a. Kanda can't kill people, so using them to replace leaders/generals is impossible if you can't kill them in the middle of a warcamp, get the body to a secure location for a few hours for the Kandra to eat and recreate it, and get them back into the warcamp before they have to attend any meetings or battles.

 

b. Soothers/Rioters can only affect a few dozen people at once, so using them against an entire army is useless

 

c. Koloss aren't nearly as powerful after their blood frenzy, and charging them before they get angry can easily beat them, as they have no coordination.

 

d. A significant fraction of Allomancers were nobility, who wouldn't fight, and skaa, who couldn't reveal that they were Mistings.

Kandra do not even need to be leaders or generals. All they need to do is look like they belong to join mission reports and planning. Officers get killed on the battlefield just as much as general infantry. All you would need is for Scadrial to win a skirmish or two, and go through the bodies. Then before Roshar knows they can accomplish this and how, you have already seeded the Rosharian army with spies. 

[Rich2244]

I really think everyone here is underestimating shardplate, there are WoB that state pewter gives roughly double your normal strength, triple if flared, with enhanced speed/ reflexes/ balance to compensate so your not ridiculously clumsy. Shardplate is never cracked in the books by a non radiant without shardplate without a significant number of blows over sustained periods of time. Drained shardplate is cracked by a chasmfiend, a Koloss is not as strong as a chasmfiend, not even close, Koloss would be similar to thugs, potentially dangerous but hilariously outclassed.

Shardplate users seem to be able to do far more than what several times a normal human strength could do, the books describe it as the strength of many men, in my mind many is at least 6-8 probably more like 10-12.

With that in mind 100 shardbearers working as a unit rather than alone is a terrifying prospect, realistically mistings wouldn't even be a threat, mistborn would beat a shardbearer one on one with atium but two or three on one I doubt it.

Also I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that there are hundreds of mistborn all over the place, the main houses seem to have 1-3, then there are a few others scattered about, maybe 40-50 in the entire empire, not including the 16 inquisitors and TLR. Straff Venture had as many children as possible to get as many mistborn as he could and ended up with 1 confirmed and I would assume 1-2 that died trying to assassinate Elend.

Another interesting thing people don't seem to have touched on yet is how a shardblade would affect TLR. Would he be able to heal a shardblade wound with gold compounding? I'm of the opinion he wouldn't as gold just stores health that you already have, it doesn't give the body the ability to heal spiritual wounds. Though I may be wrong about that, any thoughts?

I agree that Scadrial would have an advantage but I don't think it's anywhere near as one sided as people are suggesting.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Rich2244

[Pathfinder]

I really think everyone here is underestimating shardplate, there are WoB that state pewter gives roughly double your normal strength, triple if flared, with enhanced speed/ reflexes/ balance to compensate so your not ridiculously clumsy. Shardplate is never cracked in the books by a non radiant without shardplate. Drained shardplate is cracked by a chasmfiend, a Koloss is not as strong as a chasmfiend, not even close, Koloss would be similar to thugs, potentially dangerous but hilariously outclassed.

That is incorrect. Parshendi have cracked shardplate with hammers and axes. Shardbearers would not need a cohort accompanying them into combat if a normal person could not break it. 

[Rich2244]

That is incorrect. Parshendi have cracked shardplate with hammers and axes. Shardbearers would not need a cohort accompanying them into combat if a normal person could not break it.

Apologies I meant by a single person, not a group over the course of a battle, I will edit

[Rich2244]

Also if Scadrial are using Koloss and Steel Inquisitors then Roshar should have the forces of Odium, you can't have all of one planet against the good side on another, it has to be either Preservation vs Honor/Cultivation or Preservation/Ruin vs Honour/Cultivation/Odium

[Pathfinder]

I really think everyone here is underestimating shardplate, there are WoB that state pewter gives roughly double your normal strength, triple if flared, with enhanced speed/ reflexes/ balance to compensate so your not ridiculously clumsy. Shardplate is never cracked in the books by a non radiant without shardplate without a significant number of blows over sustained periods of time. Drained shardplate is cracked by a chasmfiend, a Koloss is not as strong as a chasmfiend, not even close, Koloss would be similar to thugs, potentially dangerous but hilariously outclassed.

Shardplate users seem to be able to do far more than what several times a normal human strength could do, the books describe it as the strength of many men, in my mind many is at least 6-8 probably more like 10-12.

With that in mind 100 shardbearers working as a unit rather than alone is a terrifying prospect, realistically mistings wouldn't even be a threat, mistborn would beat a shardbearer one on one with atium but two or three on one I doubt it.

Also I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that there are hundreds of mistborn all over the place, the main houses seem to have 1-3, then there are a few others scattered about, maybe 40-50 in the entire empire, not including the 16 inquisitors and TLR. Straff Venture had as many children as possible to get as many mistborn as he could and ended up with 1 confirmed and I would assume 1-2 that died trying to assassinate Elend.

Another interesting thing people don't seem to have touched on yet is how a shardblade would affect TLR. Would he be able to heal a shardblade wound with gold compounding? I'm of the opinion he wouldn't as gold just stores health that you already have, it doesn't give the body the ability to heal spiritual wounds. Though I may be wrong about that, any thoughts?

I agree that Scadrial would have an advantage but I don't think it's anywhere near as one sided as people are suggesting.

I still take issue with a lot of what you state. Parshendi are weaker than Koloss yet they can break shardplate. It takes on average three strikes to shatter a section of shardplate that depowers that portion. I can reference the book to back that up. You state that pewter can out do koloss, yet also state that pewter makes you 2 times as strong, while Koloss are actually 4 times as strong due to their spikes giving them the strength of five men (themselves included). Although shardplate does increase strength, saying 10 to 12 men is an exaggeration. Dalinar is able to hold a hammer in one hand, that two men can lift. True they struggle, but they can still manage it. So to say 10 to 12 is overboard. Much earlier in the thread population numbers of mistings and mistborn are commented on that responds to your inquiry. WoB confirm that gold healing can heal a shardblade wound. 

 

Rich said

Also if Scadrial are using Koloss and Steel Inquisitors then Roshar should have the forces of Odium, you can't have all of one planet against the good side on another, it has to be either Preservation vs Honor/Cultivation or Preservation/Ruin vs Honour/Cultivation/Odium 

 

So pitting one shard against two, or two shards against three is balanced? It should be Preservation/Ruin against Honor/Cultivation then. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Pathfinder

[IndigoAjah]

Why should Odium get involved? We can see logically how Kandra, Inquisitors, Koloss etc can be used by Scadrial without Ruin's input, plus later Ruin and Preservation are joined together and they have worked together before. Odium, it seems from all we have seen, is inherently opposed to Honor and Cultivation and I cannot see how they would ever work with him

Also, it may well be that we are underestimating shard plate. I personally think that you, and a few others, are HUGELY overestimating it, given how poorly it fares in the series so far

Edited May 27, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[Edgedancer]

Why should Odium get involved? We can see logically how Kandra, Inquisitors, Koloss etc can be used by Scadrial without Ruin's input, plus later Ruin and Preservation are joined together and they have worked together before. Odium, it seems from all we have seen, is inherently opposed to Honor and Cultivation and I cannot see how they would ever work with him

Yeah, if anything entering Odium should lead to a three way match.