Lounge

[TKWade he/him]

19 hours ago, neongrey said:

And it's important for the broader cultural context because, frankly, priveleged people navelgazing about things that don't have anything to do with them are a dime a dozen. And that is harmful.

I'm trying understand this sentence - can you say it more layman's terms? The way I deconstructed it is that you're saying 'privileged people thinking too much about themselves, their own experiences, which have nothing to do with them are a dime a dozen. And that's harmful.' or 'privileged people thinking deeply about issues and experiences which have nothing to do with them are a dime a dozen. And that's harmful.'

The later seems paradoxical, because I think that would actually be the opposite of harmful and the first just doesn't make sense. So, I think I'm understanding what you're trying to say totally incorrectly

plz help me!

[neongrey]

Let's consider it like this. And this is not the best of analogies but I think it covers most of how I personally am able to contextualize this.

Let's say you (generic you) want to tell a story about rocket science. You think rocket science is pretty cool. So you write a story about rocket science. You write a story where rocket science is integral to the story. It's all about rocket scientists doing rocket science. But you don't know anything about rocket science. You read some books so it's not all wrong, but really, you know absolutely nothing about rocket science. People love your story and how it integrates rocket science! Hey, will you write this story about this famous rocketry incident?

And imagine there's actual rocket scientists out there. They want to tell stories. Some of them are about rocket science. Some of them just have rocket scientists in them. Some of them are just sick and tired of you and people like you being treated as experts on rocket science. They are very tired of being asked 'hey did you read this book/watch this show/see this movie about rocket science?' They're very tired of society's collective understanding of rocket science being shaped by people who know absolutely nothing about rocket science. They're tired of 'oh but you've got that one popular rocket scientist, you all should be happy with that'. And so on.

Now imagine instead of talking about rocket science I was talking about, say, black people. Or transgender people. Or disabled people. Etc.

Seeking understanding's good. But the world is full of the privileged hijacking the stories of the marginalized.

[TKWade he/him]

Okay, that makes far more sense which I would agree with.

That being said - what about someone of privilege working closely with a member of the marginalized group in question to write the story focused on the marginalized groups experience? If I'm not a rocket scientist want to write about rocket science consulting closely with an actual rocket scientist - is that ethically acceptable?

[neongrey]

That's generally the ideal, if you are not yourself a rocket scientist. There definitely are people out there who will say otherwise so don't take this as gospel, and there's things you want to keep an eye out for, like, say, making sure you're not taking credit for the rocket scientist's work/ideas/lived experience/etc, but I think so long as you're considerate of the actual people behind your subject matter, things generally work out okay.

[kais]

1 hour ago, neongrey said:

but I think so long as you're considerate of the actual people behind your subject matter, things generally work out okay.

I agree, but if you want to see objections to this thought from marginalized voices, there are some authors on Twitter who have very strong opinions about 'staying in your lane, no exceptions'. While you may not agree with their opinions, it is nice to read their thoughts and try to understand why they feel so passionately about keeping their experiences their own, under all circumstances.

Sorry, this was a response for @TKWade

Edited December 14, 2016 by kaisa

[neongrey]

Oh yeah, absolutely. And there's absolutely times when a story, straight-up, is not going to be yours to tell*. One hopes this will usually be obvious, but if it were, it wouldn't keep happening constantly.

*(honestly in these cases, the story you would be telling is usually worse than the story you're talking over anyway. i don't believe in 'write what you know' but if it's a story about things that you haven't experienced but other people have, it usually shows)

[Vreeah]

A while back, during one of the Writing Excuses podcasts, Mary suggested this website. People with numberous backgrounds are found there with various methods of contact, and they are willing to talk to writers about their background and experiences. These folks do the kindness of sharing their firsthand account so that writers can reflect a more genuine experience in their works.

The whole issue itself has lots of facets. Definitely learn as much as you can, and always keep an open mind, so that after you entertain everyone's opinion you can be sure of your own decisions.

[neongrey]

Yeah that's a good site, and there's people (whom you can hire) who do sensitivity reads too and I think that's also a great resource.

One thing I do advise against is hitting up marginalized people to basically do your legwork for free. Especially in a social media context, the fact that someone's willing to discuss the subject as it impacts themselves doesn't necessarily mean they're willing to explain themselves, in detail, again, to every person who has the same questions over and over again.

[TKWade he/him]

To everyone posting I just wanted to say thank you for the great and thoughtful discussion. It's really eye-opening and I'm taking in so much information. It really gives me a sense of hope moving forward in writing. I definitely wouldn't be progressing in the same way that I currently am without your help and guidance. So, thank you. Makes me excited

[neongrey]

Here's a decent article. 

[neongrey]

Heads up, if anyone else uses evernote. I'd sort of advise that you stop.

[TKWade he/him]

Wow, that is an incredibly poor move on their part. I bet that gets rolled back shortly after release.

[neongrey]

Who knows, they've been going downhill a lot over the past year. I think I'm moving to onenote.

[TKWade he/him]

have you looked into google keep at all? i'm just a google fan boy lol

[neongrey]

Honestly, I prefer google docs for my purposes but I also need something that isn't tied to my main google account because I can't be logging into it at work.

[TKWade he/him]

Yeah, I love google docs - my savior. I'm on google docs too much at work. It's a problem.

[neongrey]

one weird trick to keep you out of gdocs at work: fill your google account with things of varying degrees of NSFW-ity. IT departments hate it!

[TKWade he/him]

What are thoughts on self-publishing? I'm far off, but I'm just doing some prelim research and wanted to know what other thought vs the traditional route.

[kais]

@Mandamon has self-published, so he could talk to you about the process. I'm with an indie press, which has some similarities as well.

Generally, and this is just my opinion, I like self-publishing in that it allows authors the absolute freedom to write whatever they want. It has given a lot of diverse manuscripts a voice and a chance to be read that were 'too challenging' for an agent or publisher.

With that said, it is often used as a route for people who don't write well to skirt the normal subbing to agents/editors system, which can make people wary of self-self-pubbed books because some are poorly edited and not very good. Of course, just because something is well written and with a big publisher doesn't make it good. See the discussions over The Continent, the racist book that somehow made it all the way to ARCs before someone called them out. 

Self-publishing isn't right for everyone, but it works for some people. I would advise all new authors to try agent subbing first. Spend the year sending out subs and looking at feedback. If you are getting Rs with no feedback, or the feedback is saying things like 'not marketable, poorly written,' etc, that's not an indication to self-publish. That's an indication to hone your craft and keep editing. But if you're subbing and you're getting feedback like 'not right fit, unsure who to sell to, too controversial, loved your writing but the piece isn't for me', and you go through a year and still don't find a match, that's telling you that your work is probably salable. You can either keep trying to find the right match (and it can take years), or you can self-publish and try to find that market yourself. 

The benefit to subbing is that if your work is close but not quite there, you will get detailed feedback from agents. And that feedback is gold. AFD went from newbie writing to marketable product once a few agents took the time really detail what needed changed. If I would have self-pubbed, I would have lost the opportunity to really make the manuscript shine. Rs are hard, so hard, and it takes 3-5 years to get your work published, usually, but that first journey means so much and really helps you become a better writer. 

In addition, and in defense of self-publishing, sometimes when your writing is almost there, having a few self-pubbed titles and your marketing info (sales, etc) can help agents feel more comfortable about your ability to produce something that sells. At this point, it is very hard to land a big publisher as a newbie. It does happen, but your work needs to be outstanding. Having published before in indie or self-pub gives an indication that you know how the game is played, and you're ready for more. 

That was a lot of text, and sort of rambly, but I hope it helps.

[neongrey]

The other thing two is that people like to talk about/think of self-pub as "a way around" slush piles. It really isn't, it just moves where the slush pile is. Self-pub gets a bad rap from readers because it puts the slush pile in front of them rather than being in front of the agent/editor, and the reader's basically pulling from slush. One's chances of actual success are about the same going either route.

Some genres, too, I think are better for it-- Romance, erotic romance, etc I would straight-up tell you not to consider trad pub if you were just starting out now, unless you really wanted a print run. That's a market where the readers consume a huge quantity of books and are accustomed to self-pub. SFF, a bit less so; the 'average' reader is looking more for ~the big release~ and is generally a bit more hostile towards self-pubbed work on principle.

The thing too I think is worth considering is what you're gaining from going either route. A sufficiently small press isn't going to do me a whole lot of good, eg, because I can get my hands on sufficiently good editors who can do me buddy rates and I have enough graphic design skill that I can do a cover, and what they'd do for me promotionally/distribution-wise isn't going to be a whole lot other than what I'll get from doing that myself. So there's a point where self-pub has more benefit to me than a small enough publisher. But that line's going to be in a different place for everyone. Look at what you're able to do for yourself and what you need done for you and gauge accordingly.

Edited December 15, 2016 by neongrey

[Mandamon he/him]

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

 

@Mandamon has self-published, so he could talk to you about the process.

 

*Waves*

@kaisa and @neongrey hit a lot of the key points.

My driving factor was Kaisa's last paragraph. I feel like my writing is about ready, and I really think the latest novel I've subbing to agents has a chance.  I self-pubbed a couple novellas this year for a few reasons:

1) To get my name and author brand out.

2) To have some work to show to agents that I'm serious about writing.

3) To have something that can earn a bit on the side if I were to get Trad published and known by name.

4) The subject matter I self-pub is a little more niche market, and I want to keep control of the amount and variety of what I publish, as well as working with the same artist for that universe.

Honestly, I probably published the first novella a little too soon. It could have been better if I published it now, but then that's always the case isn't it? I made a choice to put my work out when I did, knowing that would propel me to write more and write better, and learn from my mistakes.

Self-pubbing is a lot of work, but I feel much more prepared to work with agents and publishing houses from doing it. In the past year I've learned about printing, trademarks, copyrights, small businesses, DBAs, starting your own imprint, book covers and how to design them, websites, Amazon selling strategies, ebook publishing, etc...  Marketing (this is Neongrey's "slush pile") is a huge portion of self-pubbing and I've found a bunch of resources in the past few months. I'm trying lots of things, to see what gives me the best return for the money. There is a lot of crap out there, and you have to know how to show off your work so it's not regarded the same way. Next year I'm going to try to get into some cons and see how hand-selling books and (hopefully) being on panels work.

The big plus is that none of this research is wasted. I know how to self-publish semi-efficiently, and if I become a traditionally published author, I already know a lot about the industry, and won't be as blindsided by working with them. I can also leverage their marketing my name to sell my self-published works.

That may be more than you wanted to know, but let me know (or PM) if you have specific follow-up questions.

[TKWade he/him]

@Mandamon If you don't mind I would love to hit you up at some point, but it wont be for some time. I'm not in the realm of close lol I have much ground to cover in regards to improving my writing.

@neongrey @kaisa @Mandamon Thank you for the detailed info, super helpful - just looking for goals, so I have a target.

[Mandamon he/him]

@TKWade - No problem.  Anytime!

Also, this recent podcast with DongWon Song has some great info on indie presses and self publishing vs. traditional publishing.

[aeromancer he/him]

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Focusing on problems one step at a time lets you solve them better than focusing on them as a whole. Step one is to write a good novel.

Also, as long as I'm spouting esoteric wisdom, 'Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door.'

[TKWade he/him]

Wanted to see if people were willing to share tools or tips that they use when world building - organizationally.

I've tried file system - each object being it's only document: Characters, City, Nation, Magic systems, Geography, Religion, Social Classes, Technology, Etc.

I've recently started to migrate these things to a single document in google docs using document outliner, so that i don't have to move between documents.
 

Anyone willing to share other tools or devices that they use to organize and keep track of it all? I just find that I sometimes lose myself in the details.