Drifter's Collection

[Lurky McLurkerson he/him]

Posted this elsewhere, but throwing it out there for general consumption/disagreement/hole-poking:

 

1. Hoid is on a mission. (first letter)

2. Lots of people are hunting him down. To stop him perhaps? (first letter)

3. He rejected the OGs that took out Adonalsium. (Secret History)

4. He is gathering items of investiture like the Lerasium (Secret History)

5. Connection to a shard is required to hold a shard. (Secret History)

 

Theory Time:
Hoid is collecting all the goods so that Adonalsium can be restored (H/T to others who I've seen posting versions/aspects of this). The In-Cosmere 17th Shard is working to prevent the restoration of the shards. Where I differ from other similar theories is this: I don't think he wants it for himself. He wants to sucker some hero into taking them all. "Here, eat this bead, just eat it. Oh, and here is a flower, trust me." He'll make someone a perfect candidate to hold all of the shards. My vote is for Stick.

 

I'm going to go back to lurking now. Enjoy.

[ChaceWiggin]

This was my thought! We know from Stormlight that Hoid is also willing to see worlds razed to meet his ends. What if the Cosmere as we know it is a result of Adonalsium's fracture? If so, would the Cosmere would require remaking were it possible to unite the shards in one deity? The worlds as we know would cease to exist and something new (something old?) would replace them... That certainly enough to make a few enemies and have the current powers that be want you stopped. 

[Landis963 he/him]

This was my thought! We know from Stormlight that Hoid is also willing to see worlds razed to meet his ends. What if the Cosmere as we know it is a result of Adonalsium's fracture? If so, would the Cosmere would require remaking were it possible to unite the shards in one deity? The worlds as we know would cease to exist and something new (something old?) would replace them... That certainly enough to make a few enemies and have the current powers that be want you stopped. 

 

That doesn't seem right.  The only reason Scadrial dipped so closely to destruction was because Ruin was essentially unchallenged.  Roshar might have difficulties if Cultivation were to leave and take Honor's Investiture with her, but it appears to be the exception because of how integral the spren are to ...everything.  

[emailanimal he/him]

There are some things that do not quite fit.

 

1. Hoid is genuinely horrified by Aona and Skai's deaths.  If he is trying to reconstruct Adonalsium, taking the power from existing Vessels should be his first priority. He should cheer for team Rayse.  But he appears to want the help of someone (Frost?) with his plan to presumably stop/neutralize Rayse.  He is cheering on Dalinar and is last seen helping Jasnah.

 

2. Unless Hoid thinks that Sazed is the right person to take up all other powers, existence of Harmony should be a big problem for him. Now, I am yet to see "Hoid is Trell" theory out here.  If we believe that Hoid wants to restore Adonalsium outside of Sazed, then Hoid being behind Trell is the most reasonable of the ideas.

 

3. Meta: Hoid wanting to restore Adonalsium is a somewhat obvious thing. Brandon said something to the tune of "Hoid's plans are super secret. You will like some of them and not like others".  Based on 1 and 2 above it might fit the description, but somehow I am not convinced.

[King's Twit he/him]

There are some things that do not quite fit.

 

1. Hoid is genuinely horrified by Aona and Skai's deaths.  If he is trying to reconstruct Adonalsium, taking the power from existing Vessels should be his first priority. He should cheer for team Rayse.  But he appears to want the help of someone (Frost?) with his plan to presumably stop/neutralize Rayse.  He is cheering on Dalinar and is last seen helping Jasnah.

 

Of course Hoid would be horrified by the deaths of Aona and Skai.

 

One, their Shards were splintered, so if anything, Odium made it harder for Hoid to take up Devotion or Dominion.

 

Two, people can make all the "Hoid is the antagonist" theories that they want, but there is no doubt in my mind that Hoid is a moral, caring person regardless of whether his goals put him on the "good guy" side or not; two people who he had known for hundreds, maybe thousands of years were murdered, and the event probably caused a lot of problems and suffering on Sel as well, so it is understandable that he would have been upset regardless of whether or not Odium might have accidentally helped Hoid advance his goals.

Edited March 10, 2016 by King's Twit

[emailanimal he/him]

Two, people can make all the "Hoid is the antagonist" theories that they want, but there is no doubt in my mind that Hoid is a moral, caring person regardless of whether his goals put him on the "good guy" side or not; two people who he had known for hundreds, maybe thousands of years were murdered, and the event probably caused a lot of problems and suffering on Sel as well, so it is understandable that he would have been upset regardless of whether or not Odium might have accidentally helped Hoid advance his goals.

 

I personally never perceive Hoid as the antagonist. The more I learn about Cosmere and the Shattering of Adonalsium the more I think that he, as well as other folks from Yolen (largely Shard Vessels these days) cannot be properly described in "good guy"-"bad guy" terms. At this point I cannot say that I have seen a "good Shard". We have seen Shards that are more harmful to humanity and we have seen Shards that are less harmful to humanity, but I do not think that the Intent of any Shard (and therefore, what this Shard does on a daily basis) can be described in terms of "good" and "bad".  Or, to be more specific - in terms of "good". There are some cases (Odium), where, so far it's been nothing but threats to protagonists.  

 

 Ditto for Hoid. I view him as more of an anti-villain or an anti-hero - and which of these two  tropes he fits the best will be determined by what he does in the future, when we actually get to see his agency in anything that is more than an occasional blip.

 

The Cosmere cycle, of course, can be viewed in many different ways, but one way is to see it as a story about the interactions of gods and humanity. Now, my moral compass and the moral compass of our esteemed author may be different, but in such interactions I am squarely on the side of humanity, so my view of what is "good" and "bad" is colored by how much danger someone means (one a grand scheme of things) to the human race (and other sentient races) in the given region, planet, or Cosmere-wide. And so far, I am far from being convinced that either Shards or Hoid have the best interests of humanity in their mind (even if "best interests of humanity" is, out of necessity, a very vague notion).

[the.fulgid he/him]

Really, all we need to do is dissect the two letters from Stormlight Archive to get a decent understanding of what Hoid and the 17th Shard are up to. In the first letter, presumably written by Hoid, he is trying to stop Odium. "Before, you asked why I was so concerned. It is for the following reason: Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met. He holds the most frightening and terrible of all the Shards...One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say. In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse."

 

At the very least, his short term game is to stop Rayse. We know that he can predict certain Cosmere scale events, so it's possible and even likely that he can feel something coming. And, if you've read Dragonsteel, you know even more that this is true.

 

As for the 17th Shard, both letters provide great insight. The first one confirms that those chasing the author are of the 17th shard: "I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect." If The Recipient is of the 17th Shard, and the author of The Second Letter, then it's safe to assume that they have similar goals and intentions. These are stated in the following: "Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain. My path has been chosen very deliberately...Rayse is captive...I do not believe we could hope for a better outcome than this...You, however, have never been a force for equilibrium. You tow chaos behind you like a corpse dragged by one leg through the snow. Please, hearken to my plea. Leave that place and join me in my oath of nonintervention. The cosmere itself may depend upon our restraint."

 

 

TL:DR is basically that Hoid has the intent of stopping Rayse, preventing the deaths of his friends, and possibly allowing the "gods" of each shard to continue on in peace. My guess is that he's building power to do that. He has a bead of Lerasium, he's got at leasat 200 breaths, possibly studying hemalurgy, has spent a great deal of time on Roshar, and is undoubtedly trying to figure out a way to gain access to the Dor. The Recipient, and by association the 17th Shard, want to leave the Cosmere as it is, let things play out through their natural course, and allow the people to defend themselves. They don't interfere beyond the point of trying to catch Hoid.

[Lurky McLurkerson he/him]

Stopping Rayse is a solid goal.

Option 1: Trap him. That's what Tanavast did, but that doesn't seem to be enough.

Option 2: Splinter him. Could be a solution, but then you've got little bits of Odium floating around.

Option 3: Kill him. Sure, but then you've got an Odium shard just waiting to be taken. Whoever picks up Odium ought to have something ready to balance him out. Like maybe counterbalancing intents.

 

Food for thought.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

I still think that Hoid's plan is to try to get Nightblood to kill Odium, but the good guys in SA will balk and try to "banish" Odium instead, thinking him indestructible, which will either force Hoid to "burn" Roshar by stopping them to keep Odium trapped  (which screws Roshar over royally but may save the Cosmere or see him fail to do and Odium escaping, being the decoy villain for SA which takes things from there with a new antagonist or a desperate last fight as a no-longer bound Odium decides to go for Cultivation first before heading after other Shards, giving them one last chance in SA part 2

[the.fulgid he/him]

Hmm... I like that idea. I wonder if Nightblood COULD kill a shard, though. After all he feeds on investiture, and investiture all comes from the shards. They have a nearly unlimited supply, so they could probably draw him from the sheath without too much of an issue.

Cutting with shardblade separates the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual, but do we know if Nightblood does the same? And even if he does, would that be enough for a shard bearer? He's drawn to wicked intentions and seeks to destroy evil, but he doesn't know what evil is. What if Odium decided to take Nightblood for himself?

I must think on this further.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Hmm... I like that idea. I wonder if Nightblood COULD kill a shard, though. After all he feeds on investiture, and investiture all comes from the shards. They have a nearly unlimited supply, so they could probably draw him from the sheath without too much of an issue.

Cutting with shardblade separates the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual, but do we know if Nightblood does the same? And even if he does, would that be enough for a shard bearer? He's drawn to wicked intentions and seeks to destroy evil, but he doesn't know what evil is. What if Odium decided to take Nightblood for himself?

I must think on this further.

If Odium managed to control Nightblood, I am relatively sure that it would be bad for pretty much everyone else ever

 

There is a narrative reason that Nightblood ended up on Roshar, possibly deliberately caused by characters or not, but we know Warbreaker had to be written to introduce Vasher/Nightblood for SA, right? Am I making that up?

 

If not, one logical reason is that Nightblood is one of the few things we have seen that could possibly hurt a Shard that isn't another Shard

Edited March 28, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[natc]

Yeah, Warbreaker was written first to give background. Nightblood was, by deduction, a Stormlight Archive "character" first and foremost.

[VirtuousTraveller]

Stopping Rayse is a solid goal.

Option 1: Trap him. That's what Tanavast did, but that doesn't seem to be enough.

Option 2: Splinter him. Could be a solution, but then you've got little bits of Odium floating around.

Option 3: Kill him. Sure, but then you've got an Odium shard just waiting to be taken. Whoever picks up Odium ought to have something ready to balance him out. Like maybe counterbalancing intents.

 

Food for thought.

 

Isn't Odium already semi-splintered?

 

Question:  Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?

Brandon:  Yes.  Good guess.

 

(AMA Reddit, 2015)

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Isn't Odium already semi-splintered?

 

Question:  Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?

Brandon:  Yes.  Good guess.

 

(AMA Reddit, 2015)

Difference between deliberately formed Splinters as a form of Investiture and actually being Splintered though?

[the.fulgid he/him]

That's what I envisioned his splinters as, something akin to the Returned on Nalthis. They're splinters of Endowment.

[Lurky McLurkerson he/him]

Yeah, though that's an interesting point that our vocabulary for shardology uses the same term for both cases.

[Master_Moridin he/him]

Yeah, though that's an interesting point that our vocabulary for shardology uses the same term for both cases.

 

Well that's just because Splinter refers to the end product.  The total Splintering of a Shard and a Shard intentionally Splintering a small part of themselves both end up with self-aware pieces of Adonalsium's power.

 

It's like someone shaving your head and you cutting off a single-lock of your own hair.  Both end up with clumps of hair on the ground.