Nightwatcher and Hemalurgy

[Olm]

Hi. After some time of just reading I registered to the forum because I have some questions I couldn't find answers to.

 

First there is the Nightwatcher. She seems to be able to do some very powerful stuff that to me seem even beyond the power of shards. Could a shard hack a magic system at will? Could it just so create creatures who are able to metabolize food directly into stormlight, like Lift does? Seems to me this removes a lot of restrictions to the magic systems we know. Similarly: Could Sazed just give an intellect like Taravangians on his best day to all of the people on Scadrial? Does he even have this amount of genius himself?

 

To me it seems that the Old Magic could be something totally different, something that has nothing to do with shards. If so, if it is something that predates the shards, perhaps Cultivation cultivated this ancient magic system and so made it something that now is attached to herself? (Though the intent of "Preservation" would fit this behaviour better).

 

Now what has Hemalurgy to do with it? Has anyone ever asked Brandon, if Hemalurgy could steal a boon granted by the nightwatcher? If the answer is yes, its clear that Old Magic works quite similarly as the other magic systems (and Lift is in quite some danger if knowledge of Hemalurgy gets widely spread), if the answer is no, we'd know it's something special.

 

My bet: No, it could not be transfered.

[King's Twit he/him]

Personally, I'm in the camp of the Nightwatcher being Cultivation's "godspren", her version of the stormfather, who seemed to be very powerful. I do not think any of the boons or curses we've seen are outside of the abilities of a Shard.

 

I think that any Shard could make someone as intelligent as Taravangian, but it requires Investiture to do so, similar to how it took extra investiture from Preservation to make Scadrial's humans sentient. On a global population scale, this is a significant amount of Investiture, which is likely why no Shards that we know of have made their humans super-intelligent, but I think just boosting one person's intelligence would not be a notable loss of power, even for the Nightwatcher. Alternatively, Taravangian's intelligence might work in a similar way to how feruchemy works, where his lost intelligence from his "stupid" days is added to his base-level intelligence from other days to make his "smart" days. This would require almost no Investment from the Nightwatcher.

 

Supposedly, Lift's boon is that she exists more in the Cognitive realm than other people. I'm not sure what effort this would entail, I guess mostly a shifting of "presence" from almost all physical realm to only mostly physical realm. I just read the interlude with the two ardents and the flamespren, and in it one of them wonders what would happen if you ate food in Shadesmar. I wonder if this is connected to Lift's ability to metabolize food into Stormlight? Maybe eating in Shadesmar produces energy like in the Physical realm, but the only form of energy in the Cognitive realm is Investiture, which manifests in the Physical realm on Roshar as Stormlight. Or something like that, I'm just guessing.

 

Edit: I never brought up Hemalurgy in my post, but I don't really know how Hemalurgy works. If I am right about Nightwatcher being a Splinter of Cultivation, then you might be able to steal boons and curses, but some of them don't really seem like something you could steal. They might be on the Spirit Web somewhere, which would mean that you could probably steal them, but is everything about a person in their Spirit Web? Could I steal "blue eyes" from someone? Or "ability to play trumpet"? I'm not sure, so I think I'm going to leave Hemalurgy alone for now.

Edited January 25, 2016 by King's Twit

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

It seems that, since Taravangian loses as much intellect as he gains, there isn't necessarily a net gain of investiture. However, obviously, rearranging intellect like that must require some kind of supernatural intervention. This could be the godspren of a shard using investiture (the stormfather appears to have tons of investiture because highstorms fill everything with stormlight). I suppose it could also be something entirely different.

[KSub]

I always believed that Odium was imposing his will on Taravangian, but now that I think about it a boon from the night watcher makes sense. It's both a gift and a curse.

Oh and I think the night watchers power is an expression of cultivations not something else.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Why would what is basically a splinter of cultivation make that kind of contract with people though? That doesn't really seem in line with cultivation's intent, does it?

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Hi. After some time of just reading I registered to the forum because I have some questions I couldn't find answers to.

 

First off, welcome to the shard.

 

 

First there is the Nightwatcher. She seems to be able to do some very powerful stuff that to me seem even beyond the power of shards. Could a shard hack a magic system at will? Could it just so create creatures who are able to metabolize food directly into stormlight, like Lift does? Seems to me this removes a lot of restrictions to the magic systems we know. Similarly: Could Sazed just give an intellect like Taravangians on his best day to all of the people on Scadrial? Does he even have this amount of genius himself?

 

Similar powers to Lift and Taravangian exist already, both in Feruchemy.

Lift's ability to metabolize food into stormlight is similar to combining feruchemical bendalloy and nicrosil (though the nicrosil is largely guesswork, since Mr. Sanderson won't say anything about it)

Taravangian's intellect is textbook feruchemical zinc (with a randomizer added in) to the point that he (probably) even has to spend as much time stupid as he does smart.

 

To me it seems that the Old Magic could be something totally different, something that has nothing to do with shards. If so, if it is something that predates the shards, perhaps Cultivation cultivated this ancient magic system and so made it something that now is attached to herself? (Though the intent of "Preservation" would fit this behaviour better).

 

A shard's intent is to some level shaped by the shard's holder, Cultivation as intent could have been given an unexpected twist.

If the Old Magic is not shard-based, the only (known) alternative is that it arose from a splinter of Adonalsium. Compared to the other examples of that, Old Magic seems rather overpowered, so my bet is that it did in fact come from one of the Rosharan Shards, whether it's Cultivation, Honor, or a combination of the two, I won't even guess.

 

Now what has Hemalurgy to do with it? Has anyone ever asked Brandon, if Hemalurgy could steal a boon granted by the nightwatcher? If the answer is yes, its clear that Old Magic works quite similarly as the other magic systems (and Lift is in quite some danger if knowledge of Hemalurgy gets widely spread), if the answer is no, we'd know it's something special.

 

My bet: No, it could not be transfered.

 

Hemalurgy can theoretically steal anything that is encoded on a spiritweb (even including external parts of it, such as a bond). From Lift's example we know that the Knightwatcher can influence how a person interacts with investiture, based on this I strongly believe that the boons and curses are in fact part of a person's spiritweb and can therefore be stolen with a spike (if the correct bindpoint and metal can be found).

[Olm]

But Zinc stores mental speed, not mental capacity. I guess a rather stupid person could think as fast as he likes, he would never ever come up with the equations of general relativity. Being able to bestow that much mental capacity upon an individual bothers me, because why do the shards not create truly genius leaders to their people. This would very much help in the struggles they go through (and in which some shards like Honor or Harmony try to help as best they can, it seems).

I agree that Lifts ability is not so far off what others can do, Allomancers burn metal, Lift burns food, why not. What bothers me there is that the general rules of the existing magic on Roshar is completely altered. I always thought the magic systems are something that "happens" out of the combination of shard and world. Not so much something the shard shapes. But perhaps I am wrong there.

The interaction between Old Magic and Hemalurgy could be interesting, if it really was possible. One could perhaps get rid of the curse just by spiking oneself (and properly invested persons could probably just heal the physical damage and be happy with it). Or are boon and curse connected on the spiritweb and can only be manipulated together?

Is it confirmed that there is no other source of magic in the Cosmere than Adonalsium?

[Rockbud he/him]

I agree that Lifts ability is not so far off what others can do, Allomancers burn metal, Lift burns food, why not.

A more accurate comparison is from Warbreaker: members of the royal line can use food reserves to forcefully grow out their hair in exactly the same way lift can fuel her surgebinding.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

But Zinc stores mental speed, not mental capacity. I guess a rather stupid person could think as fast as he likes, he would never ever come up with the equations of general relativity. Being able to bestow that much mental capacity upon an individual bothers me, because why do the shards not create truly genius leaders to their people. This would very much help in the struggles they go through (and in which some shards like Honor or Harmony try to help as best they can, it seems).

I agree that Lifts ability is not so far off what others can do, Allomancers burn metal, Lift burns food, why not. What bothers me there is that the general rules of the existing magic on Roshar is completely altered. I always thought the magic systems are something that "happens" out of the combination of shard and world. Not so much something the shard shapes. But perhaps I am wrong there.

The interaction between Old Magic and Hemalurgy could be interesting, if it really was possible. One could perhaps get rid of the curse just by spiking oneself (and properly invested persons could probably just heal the physical damage and be happy with it). Or are boon and curse connected on the spiritweb and can only be manipulated together?

Is it confirmed that there is no other source of magic in the Cosmere than Adonalsium?

 

Interesting thought on why shards don't just make all leaders intelligent... Perhaps there is a very good reason for this.

Note that while Taravangian apparently has some power to become very, very intelligent... He also seems rather evil. Some of the things he does in the name of saving the world seem like they might be aimed at actually destroying it. Sounds a bit like what ruin did with the terris prophecies I guess. Maybe his intelligence is in part just odium giving him directions and future predictions, not actual genius.

I doubt that the nightwatcher is evil or of odium. But I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more peculiar features of Taravangian's genius on top of simple mental speed are a result of odium's meddling.

[Ari he/him]

Eagle's covered the major stuff about how what the Nightwatcher is doing is very similar (although not identical to) Feruchemy in those two examples. (Dalinar's curse, if anything, is the most unprecedented, although you could argue it's similar to using a Coppermind) So I'll just do some cleanup.

 

Wyndle says something in Lift's interlude while talking about how the other spren made him choose Lift that implies that Lift's quirk is related to Cultivation. He refers to Cultivation as The Mother, (but we since have WoB that Wyndle would see himself as a "cultivationspren" in a very similar way to how Syl sees herself as an "honourspren") so pending more information is seems very likely that the Nightwatcher would view itself as some sort of Cultivationspren, if it's not simply her Spren the in a similar way that the Stormfather is Honour's. (It can't be exactly the same way of course, as all indications are that Cultivation is still alive, so the Nightwatcher can't exactly be her cognitive ghost)

 

Why would what is basically a splinter of cultivation make that kind of contract with people though? That doesn't really seem in line with cultivation's intent, does it?

 

If cultivation's Intent is to change and grow things and people, then what the Nightwatcher does seems very in line with that. I have a feeling Dalinar's boon will be revealing, if we ever find out what it is.

 

It seems that, since Taravangian loses as much intellect as he gains, there isn't necessarily a net gain of investiture. However, obviously, rearranging intellect like that must require some kind of supernatural intervention. This could be the godspren of a shard using investiture (the stormfather appears to have tons of investiture because highstorms fill everything with stormlight). I suppose it could also be something entirely different.

 

Keep in mind it's quite possible that Taravangian at his most brilliant/insane may have been influenced by something else as well as his deal with the Nightwatcher. (The way the Diagram so neatly opposes Honour, I'm pretty convinced he was influenced by one of Odium's spren to make him even more intelligent, but push him in slightly the wrong direction, so that he concludes he must oppose the Knights Radiant) I'm also of the camp that the times he gets more empathy is actually his boon, and the times he loses it to gain intelligence are his curse, and the capacity he was given to save the world is actually the thing he's avoiding using.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

I'm also of the camp that the times he gets more empathy is actually his boon, and the times he loses it to gain intelligence are his curse, and the capacity he was given to save the world is actually the thing he's avoiding using.

 

Huh. I never heard that one before. I support this idea though. That makes quite a bit of sense and also by the way is a fabulously ironic thing for nightwatcher to do.

[Ari he/him]

Well' it's ironic if the Nightwatcher can see the into future like Cultivation (to some degree) can. If not, it's just revealing of Taravangian's failings as a person.

 

So my supposition is that if he had trusted the opposite side of his boon/curse, he likely would have become a Knight Radiant himself, and thus, been granted the capacity to save the world.

[Olm]

 I'm also of the camp that the times he gets more empathy is actually his boon, and the times he loses it to gain intelligence are his curse, and the capacity he was given to save the world is actually the thing he's avoiding using.

 

Indeed, thats an interesting idea which I never considered. On the other hand I always wondered why everyone is so sure Dalinars amnesia is his curse. In that case I am more inclined to think this is actually his boon and we don't know the curse yet.

 

Taravangian being manipulated by Odium is also quite an interesting idea, which downright frightens me.

[Lilamal he/him]

Welcome to the Shard, Olm. I'm of the camp that Odium is not influencing his boon or his curse, but instead changing the Diagram in the same way Ruin changes writing. That would be a much easier way to manipulate Taravangian than changing the effect of another Shard's influence on a person.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Lilamal

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Welcome to the Shard, Olm. I'm of the camp that Odium is not influencing his boon or his curse, but instead changing the Diagram in the same way Ruin changes writing. That would be a much easier way to manipulate Taravangian than changing the effect of another Shard's influence on a person.

 

Well there is that. This certainly would make sense, though I bet odium would do it in a slightly different way then ruin did.

But either way, Taravangian would basically be manipulated by odium. He is following his own prophecies thinking they will save the world, but somehow it looks like odium has twisted them a bit.

[Lilamal he/him]

Well of course it wouldn't be the exact same way, but it would be quite similar. And it seems that everyone is assuming Odium is the straight foreward brute force type. Did we ever get confirmation that Odium isn't a strategic manipulator too? It would be much easier to manipulate Taravangian through the Diagram than his boon/curse. The effects of the boon/curse are probably similar to the effects of a hemalurgic spike: take something and give something back. Preservation couldn't change the effects of the hemalurgic spike on Vin, so maybe Shards can't interfere with the effects of another Shard's Investure on a person. Preservation was weak at the time though, so maybe it's just really hard to do. Even so, that doesn't change the fact that it would be easier to change the Diagram instead of Taravangian himself.

[ricree]

Keep in mind it's quite possible that Taravangian at his most brilliant/insane may have been influenced by something else as well as his deal with the Nightwatcher. (The way the Diagram so neatly opposes Honour, I'm pretty convinced he was influenced by one of Odium's spren to make him even more intelligent, but push him in slightly the wrong direction, so that he concludes he must oppose the Knights Radiant) I'm also of the camp that the times he gets more empathy is actually his boon, and the times he loses it to gain intelligence are his curse, and the capacity he was given to save the world is actually the thing he's avoiding using.

 

 

I'm not even sure about a "push". The diagram isn't the product of careful study built up over many sessions of thought and understanding. It appeared ex nihilo one day on an occasion so strange that he can no longer recall any of the thought and reasoning that took place to create it.

 

Until it gets contradicted, I'm still firmly of the belief that the diagram was a malign creation during what was a particularly vulnerable day. Whether that was Odium himself or some other malicious intermediary, I can't say, but I don't buy for a second that it was his own creation.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Well after having read something that Lift's spren says to her, I am fairly certain that the nightwatcher is in fact related to cultivation...

So the nightwatcher's boon+curse is probably not inherently evil.

However, if the nightwatcher's true gift is when Taravangian is more empathetic (but also less intelligent), it stands to reason that a shard of hatred could manipulate Taravangian's thoughts when he is at his least empathetic. Or just manipulate the diagram.

Either way, I am convinced that the powers given to Taravangian were initially good, but through some corruption by odium, and quite possibly a tragic misconception on Taravangian's part, they have been turned into a weapon.

[Lilamal he/him]

Well after having read something that Lift's spren says to her, I am fairly certain that the nightwatcher is in fact related to cultivation.

What quote?

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

What quote?

I will pull it up for you in a bit.

Right now I will just say I recall that Lift's spren, which is fairly obviously of cultivation, refers to the nightwatcher as its mother.

A bit like how the stormfather is sometimes referred to as the father of honorspren.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Ari he/him]

Welcome to the Shard, Olm. I'm of the camp that Odium is not influencing his boon or his curse, but instead changing the Diagram in the same way Ruin changes writing. That would be a much easier way to manipulate Taravangian than changing the effect of another Shard's influence on a person.

 

We have WoB that Odium is not using that particular trick, but has other ways to manipulate people.

 

I don't think Odium is directly influencing his boon or curse, just the trust he's placed in it. (ie. he sends a hatespren to give Taravangian visions on a day that Taravangian is feeling very smart. Everyone assumes that these visions are genius-level predictive ability, when in fact much of it is just Odium's minion feeding Taravangian things he will interpret in a typically unempathic way)

 

 

What quote? [ie. How is Nightwatcher related to Cultivation]

 

Supporting evidence: (All from the chapter named Lift, I-9 of Words of Radiance)

 

Where Wyndle complains about how he didn't want to choose Lift, he explicitly mentions her visiting the Nightwatcher:

 

 

You realize that I didn't choose you," he said, a face appearing in the vines as they moved. His speaking left a strange effect, the trail behind him clotted with a sequence of frozen faces. The mouth seemed to move because it was growing so quickly beside her.

"I wanted to pick a distinguished Iriali matron. A grandmother, an accomplished gardener. But no, the Ring said we should choose you. 'She has visited the Old Magic,' they said. 'Our mother has blessed her,' they said. 'She will be young, and we can mold her,' they said. Well, they don't have to put up with-"

 

Wyndle discusses his invisibility, and why Lift can see and touch him, and he refers to the Nightwatcher as his mother:

 

 

"They can't see me," Wyndle said, growing up beside her to create another line of handholds, "because I exist mostly in the Cognitive Realm, even though I've moved my consciousness to this Realm. I can make myself visible to anyone, should I desire, though it's not easy for me. Other spren are more skilled at it, while some have the opposite trouble. Of course, no matter how I manifest, nobody can touch me, as I barely have any substance in this Realm."

   "Nobody but me," Lift whispered, inching down the hallway.

   "You shouldn't be able to either," he said, sounding troubled. "What did you ask for, when you visited my mother?

 

And the last discussion of Lift's boon:

 

 

"Somehow, you are partly in the Cognitive Realm," Windle said, coiling beside her and raising a twisting mest of vines that could make a face. "It is the only answer I can find to why you can touch spren. And you can metabolize food directly into stormlight."

[...]

"But why?" Wyndle said. "Why did She give you this incredible talent? Why a child? There are soldiers, grand kings, incredible scholars among humankind. Instead she chose you."

 

Some backup that Wyndle is a Cultivationspren: (we also have WoB that Wyndle sees himself as such in the same way Syl sees herself as an Honourspren)

 

 

"What has become of me?" Wyndle asked. "Thieving in the night, chased by abominations. I was a gardener. A wonderful gardener! Cryptics and honourspren alike came to see the crystals I grew from the minds of your world. Now this. What have I become?"

 

 

Taken together, these quotes paint a picture that the Nightwatcher is viewed as something equivilent to Cultivation by her Cultivationspren. It's not definitive that they're the same thing, or that the Nightwatcher is Her spren, but it's clear at the least that there's some association.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ari

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Well after having read something that Lift's spren says to her, I am fairly certain that the nightwatcher is in fact related to cultivation...

So the nightwatcher's boon+curse is probably not inherently evil.

 

Don't forget that the end purpose of cultivating something is usually the harvest. *ominous music*

[Tasty Flesh]

Some backup that Wyndle is a Cultivationspren: (we also have WoB that Wyndle sees himself as such in the same way Syl sees herself as an Honourspren)

I agree with this assessment, Ari. I think there is also a mention of this on WoR, from Jasnah, when she is on the ship at the beginning, talking to Shallan. I'll try to find the quote when I get home.

Personally, I think that Surgebinding (that is, Investiture coming from Honor) is end-positive, Boons and Curses (Cultivation) are end-neutral, and Voidbinding (Odium) are end-negative. I think it makes sense based on what we know of the shards on Scadrial, and based on what we know of the former two magic systems.

That said, Boons and Curses in relation to Feruchemy doesn't really fit in, since Feruchemy isn't of any shard in particular, so maybe not. 

At the very least, that's how I think of the magic systems of Roshar.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Yes well the radiant oaths imply that all surgebinding is tied to honor, even ones that come from nahel bonds with cultivation spren. Not sure how this works, but the presence of oaths denotes this. Honor and cultivation's magic would mingle in some ways, though.

I wonder if there is a magic system that is based exclusively on the power of cultivation, or if cultivation's main manifestation of magic is in fact slightly mingled with honor.

[Tasty Flesh]

 Honor and cultivation's magic would mingle in some ways, though.

Intersting point...I wonder if perhaps, as we saw Feruchemy being in between Preservation and Ruin, that might be what the Nightwatcher's magic is...would that also mean there is one in between Honor and Odium, and Cultivation and Odium? Or perhaps Odium hasn't been on Roshar long enough for that to occur.