Bridge specifications?

[Inkthinker]

Yeah, someone else pointed that out on reddit, this design as-is offers some coverage at least from the chest/shoulders-up. THIS DESIGN ISN'T DEADLY ENOUGH.

One suggestion was to put the front rank right below the front lip of the ramp, which would also allow me to shorten the length slightly (not that I want to). I can also lower the shoulder-resting crossbeams to raise the profile some, to the point where they would be exposed at least from the eyes down, though this does lower the clearance to about 6 inches. Between that and the Parhsendi usually being on a plateau slightly lower, the rest of the angles work out.

I'll rework the design to account for these notes, if I find the need to make this more comprehensive. For now, I think I've made the point I was going for, so I'm probably not going back in there to change the original again.

The fun I have when interpreting the text is finding how far I can stretch it and still stick with the description. He says thick boards and broad beams, but how thick is "thick"? I imagine the boards being about 2"-4" thick, depending on placement, which (as someone who misspent his youth around a tablesaw and chopped a lot of wood) strikes me as reasonably thick for the given value of the term. I expect the boards would be a variety of widths, but we're basically talking about thick planking, like a hardwood deck.

As it was, when I was sketching this out I wasn't concerned too much with anything more than the basic dimensions and a loose structure. The drawing isn't detailed enough to work out which planks are thick and which are beams and so forth, but if someone wants to expand up on it I won't mind.

[Aspren]

Yeah, that would work quite well. 

 

Is that thick enough to withstand the strain of six or so armoured horsemen charging across the bridge though? You could probably get away with explaining that wood from trees on Roshar are much stronger than that of Earth trees because they need to endure Highstorms. 

 

Could we possibly see this design in later books? I'd certainly love to see what it looks like once you've finalized the design (I also can't wait to see Dalinar's tower-bridges).

[Inkthinker]

I get very limited say in what gets drawn for the books... it would have to come up in the narrative again, and there would need to be a document in-world that involved bridges for some reason. It's possible, but I think we might be past that point in the story. Then again, he surprises me every volume.

Someday we'll collect an art book of aallll the concept art and background stuff and everything that everyone on the team has done so far, and all that has yet to come. There's a lot of stuff behind the scenes, failed concepts and portraits and so forth. It's gonna be an amazing book, but it's not likely to happen until after we wrap the first five-book arc at the soonest.

I might do up Dalinar's bridges just for my own satisfaction, same as I did these. Nothing too complicated, just a loose design to get the idea across. You can see a sorta rough hint of what I've been thinking in the final I sent to Michael Whelan for the Shallan painting.

 

 

It's like a tower with a folding drawbridge, and after it lays the bridge the tower itself can cross over. Troops pass through the tower at ground level and over the bridge, and then the tower folds up the bridge behind itself and trundles along, towed by chulls.

Thing is, I imagine that moves at about a steady walking pace, so maybe 3mph? Plus time to hitch, unhitch, drop, fold, lift, carry, cross, jump down, turn around, do the hokey-pokey.

In comparison, Sadeas can run his men to death at a pace of at least a steady 5mph jog and the process of dropping, crossing, transferring and picking it up again is much faster. Dalinar has the advantage of being able to bridge wider chasms, so he can take more direct paths, but just the same he's soooo sslllloooowwwww... it's a wonder he ever gets a gemheart at all.

[Cromptj he/him]

Inkthinker, you are probably right regarding the cavalry charge, it just seems like a waste of horses though s as they are much rarer than on Earth.

Also, with soulcasters, why don't they make the bridges out of a suitably light metal or other material, or at least make the frame metal?

Edited January 19, 2014 by Cromptj

[Moist_von_Lipwig he/him]

Wait. Cromptj has a point, it said in the book that they didn't have Permanent bridges that far out into the plains because Parshendi raiding parties kept burning them. So why on Roshar didn't they build the permanent bridges out of wood, fetch some soulcasters, and soulcast the whole thing into solid rock or metal. The Parshendi would have a much harder time messing with those.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Moist_von_Lipwig

[Aspren]

I might do up Dalinar's bridges just for my own satisfaction, same as I did these. Nothing too complicated, just a loose design to get the idea across. You can see a sorta rough hint of what I've been thinking in the final I sent to Michael Whelan for the Shallan painting.

It's like a tower with a folding drawbridge, and after it lays the bridge the tower itself can cross over. Troops pass through the tower at ground level and over the bridge, and then the tower folds up the bridge behind itself and trundles along, towed by chulls.

Thing is, I imagine that moves at about a steady walking pace, so maybe 3mph? Plus time to hitch, unhitch, drop, fold, lift, carry, cross, jump down, turn around, do the hokey-pokey.

 

That's quite a good design. It looks much lighter than I thought it would. I was thinking something like a fairly heavy siege-tower, but your design is much more practical. From the looks of it, when the bridge is folded up then it acts as a shield for the troops inside and behind the tower. 

 

Out of curiosity, what are those two beams sticking out at the bottom of the back of the bridge-tower. Are they for stability or do they slide out and lock in place the drawbridge when it's unfolded?

Edited January 19, 2014 by Aspren

[Natans he/him]

Wait. Cromptj has a point, it said in the book that they didn't have Permanent bridges that far out into the plains because Parshendi raiding parties kept burning them. So why on Roshar didn't they build the permanent bridges out of wood, fetch some soulcasters, and soulcast the whole thing into solid rock or metal. The Parshendi would have a much harder time messing with those.

 

By what we gather in the book the are several limitations of what you can soulcast, see Kaladin comment about Stone barracks, also soulcast is a Holy Affair done mostly in secret, maybe  the Ardentia have  restriction of what they will do with their soulcaster. Last, it was said that soul cast larger structures are much harder than small ones, soulcast a whole brigde out of thin air could be to much.

 

Just my oppinon tought.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Natans

[Moist_von_Lipwig he/him]

But we know that the barracks in all of the war camps, Elhokar's palace, and Dalinar's complex are all soulcast; and those are fairly big. So surely a bridge wouldn't be that much of a stretch. They wouldn't even have to soulcast it out of air either, they could just soulcast the wooden bridges that are already there.

 

I can understand the Ardentia not wanting to have their soulcasters used that way. And perhaps it's because they don't want the soulcasters put in danger, since the Parshendi could ambush them and steal the soulcaster.

 

Still, it would make fighting on the plains a lot easier.

[Inkthinker]

So, the question of soulcasting comes up a lot, but there's a few points to remember:

 

1) Soulcasting is expensive. Like, we don't know exactly how much, but it costs a lot, and the Highprinces are not absolved from paying the Church for their service. Most of the soulcasting funds of the Highprinces go into making food, and some into construction, but mostly for food, and it's a telling expense. It's possible that even the wealthiest don't have the spare funds to soulcast food AND housing/infrastructure in the camps, AND bridges out in the plains. Especially when you take into account that...

2) Bridges are not meant to be permanent beyond a certain point. For one thing, a bridge you can use is a bridge the enemy can use, and moreover it's a bridge your competition can use. Remember, to the Highprinces this whole war is a game with gemhearts as the prize. Why would Sadeas pay for bridges that Dalinar might use? Is he going to set up a tollbooth? And for another thing...

3) The nature of the Plains is such that the target plateau is random (or at least chosen for reasons unknown), and the target plateaus keep getting farther away. There's no point in setting up a permanent bridge between plateau A and B that costs a lot of money and gives advantage to both your enemy and your fellow competitors if you can't be certain that you'll need to go from A to B next time your scouts spot a chrysalis... perhaps this time the gem is over on plateau X, and you need to get there via an entirely different route.

NOW. If someone was actually investing in winning a war, with a direct target and a select series of routes, where permanent bridges were important as a means of establishing infrastructure to support staging attacks deeper into the Plains... but that's not the game they've been playing up to now.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Inkthinker

[Cromptj he/him]

The cost of soulcasting should not matter. Permanent bridges are useful enough that Dalinar and Sadeas would probably advise Elhokar to waive the soulcasting tax.

The Parshedi do not need bridges so having permanent bridges all the way out to the further plateaus would not make anything easier for them, especially as the bridges are going from the Alethi side.

Having a line of permanent bridges would be much more useful when Dalinar plans his assault on the Parshendi. Then they would be needed for supply lines and easy access to the armies.

[Inkthinker]

That's quite a good design. It looks much lighter than I thought it would. I was thinking something like a fairly heavy siege-tower, but your design is much more practical. From the looks of it, when the bridge is folded up then it acts as a shield for the troops inside and behind the tower. 

 

Out of curiosity, what are those two beams sticking out at the bottom of the back of the bridge-tower. Are they for stability or do they slide out and lock in place the drawbridge when it's unfolded?

Thanks!

You've got it, it's more-or-less a hollow frame on wheels, but the sides at the lowest level are shielded and the bridge is a shield until it's dropped . The top levels might have archers to helps soften the landing, but it's still probably like hitting the beach at Omaha every time they go in.

The long bars were some thought I had of being both a counterweight and acting as reinforcing beams that you slide into place after the bridge is set, when you want to roll the heavy superstructure over the top. The front and back of the tower would be identical and interchangeable, so when the tower gets to the other side you would slide the bars through, re-attach the bridge and raise it back up, turn the tower around and trundle along, back becomes front and rinse + repeat.

That design is probably one story too tall, but I liked the look of the proportions and wasn't much concerned with the added weight of another level.

[Inkthinker]

The cost of soulcasting should not matter. Permanent bridges are useful enough that Dalinar and Sadeas would probably advise Elhokar to waive the soulcasting tax.

The Parshedi do not need bridges so having permanent bridges all the way out to the further plateaus would not make anything easier for them, especially as the bridges are going from the Alethi side.

Having a line of permanent bridges would be much more useful when Dalinar plans his assault on the Parshendi. Then they would be needed for supply lines and easy access to the armies.

 

I think you're underestimating the power of the Church, or you're overestimating Elkohar's stretch as a ruler. He can't just waive the fees... there are costs (soulcasting ruins gems), and they must be paid, and if he told the ardents they needed to spend their gems on his soulcasting needs without being repaid, I think he would quickly lose the support of that organization. Loyalties are not absolute, and he's just a king... kings can be replaced. Religious institutions are historically quite good at that. In addition, the other highprinces only obey him as a sort of "first among equals", they're not his vassals. If he stopped paying the Ardentia, all it would take is for a snake like Sadeas to offer to pay them what they want, under the table, and BAM, guess who's the next king?

Dalinar might support permanent bridges, but Sadeas has no reason to do so, he's currently winning the game with his "throw the meat-shields at it" strategy... his technique is fastest and cheapest, if you're not counting the costs in lives (which they do not, slaves are livestock). His bridges are inexpensive but functional, and he doesn't have to share them with anyone if he don't wanna.

Remember also that the various Highprinces aren't just winning money to spend on their own camps and costs, they presumably send money back to their provinces, to support costs there as well. It's all about getting richer, and one way you make money is by spending as little as possible.

Your point about Dalinar's plan of assault is valid. Now that he's taken command as The Highprince of War, the nature of the game may change. But as I was saying, this was the game up to now. The Highprinces don't cooperate, they compete. They're not interested in "winning" by defeating the Parshendi, they want more money and they get it by taking chrysalis. They fight the Parshendi because the Parshendi also want the gemhearts. Dalinar is about to change all that... or at least, he's about to try.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Inkthinker

[DocHoliday he/him]

I think you may be overestimating the Ardentia' s sway over Soul-casting. The Ardents are property after all. Prior to the Hierocracy, they may have had some major power, but nowadays they're almost relics. Something used like a tool really. 

[TomR]

I'm painfully stuck with the Imperial measuring system, but the basic premises are the same... if the bridge extends beyond it's mid-point, it will start to tip. 

 

If it extends beyond the center of mass.  If the bridge is built symmetrically, that would be the midpoint, but the carpenters could increase the length the bridgemen can extend the bridge if they added weight in the rear.  Wouldn't be much fun for whoever was running in the back, though.  That also might be a side-benefit of lower handholds used to push-- the downward force would effectively keep the bridge level longer.  Probably not much longer, especially as men are going to be falling out the farther forward you push, but a combination of that and a weighted back might grant a few more feet.

[Cromptj he/him]

But then it is difficult to get the bridge over to the other side of the chasm once everbody had crossed.

With regards to the Ardentia and soulcasting, Doc makes a good point, the ardents are technically property and I believe that all soulcasters are owned by the crown. I do not have a quote on this though so if anyone can find evidence for or against, that would be great. Also, as ardents cannot own property, I would imagine that the king, whoever it is, provides the gemstones used in soulcasting.

Having permanent bridges would save money in the long run. The armies would be able to get to the plateaus faster and so would suffer fewer casualties. The highprinces would then not have to outfit new troops, pay compensation to families etc. Either way, Dalinar and Elhokar could just build the bridges themselves, Dalinar would certainly see the benefits in them and the highprinces could not stop them.

[Moogle]

I think you may be overestimating the Ardentia' s sway over Soul-casting. The Ardents are property after all. Prior to the Hierocracy, they may have had some major power, but nowadays they're almost relics. Something used like a tool really. 

 

That's what they claim.

 

Take a look at the ardents who speak with Dalinar, especially the creepy one who wanted Dalinar to know about their goodwill. They are quite clearly involved in politics. They are 'property', but do you see them going on bridge runs? Do they do Soulcastings for free? A good portion of ardents do scholarly work too.

 

Ardents can be 'property' all they want, they quite clearly derive great power from it and their control over Soulcasters. There's an ardent in every highprince's retinue, so they've got easy access to all the political leaders, too, if they feel like assassinating people or just continuing to be spies.

 

Kabsal can't be the only ardent displeased with the status quo. I'm not going to be surprised if the ardents make another play for power to attempt to rule the world. And this time, with a thousand years or so to prepare, I wouldn't be surprised if they succeed.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Moogle

[TomR]

But then it is difficult to get the bridge over to the other side of the chasm once everbody had crossed.

 

Good point.  Should've known I was overlooking something  

[Inkthinker]

I agree, permanent bridges would make sense, IF anyone was interested in long-term benefits or mutual assistance. But they're not, and if Dalinar is the only one who acts selflessly, he'll weaken himself against all those willing to act selfishly.

I can't believe I have to explain that, it's like a major plot point from the latter part of the book. The Wars on the Shattered Plains is not being fought like a war, it's being played like a game. Elkohar is too weak a king to force the highprinces to act in the best interests of the whole at a cost to themselves. Instead everyone's just trying to gain power and profit for themselves, and if they can topple the king in their own favor they might (his paranoia about this is also a major plot point). It's a huge character moment for Dalinar when he finally forces Elkohar to appoint him Highprince of War so that he can be the strong leader needed to make the others act like leaders of men, not players.

In Words of Radiance we'll see the results of that.

[Chrono she/her]

With regards to permanent bridges, in the book it seemed that there never was a problem with them being, well... not permanent. Kaladin notes once, in all of his bridge run narratives, that a permanent bridge is blown out, but other than that, there is no big problem mentioned. Adolin and Sadeas both stress that the warcamps are completely safe: the Parshendi rarely attack the Alethi side any more, and acts of sabotage are so infrequent that it'd be a waste of time and money to soulcast a new permanent bridge. Most likely, the reason the Highprinces don't bother with permanent permanent bridges is that it'd just be too much work for too little hassle.

 

I also agree with you, Inkthinker, that it'd be a lot of money. There is, after all, the talk in one of Dalinar's beginning chapters about how Soulcasters cost tons of money and how highprinces often fall behind on their fees. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the more financially deficit highprinces is accumulating massive debt just from Soulcasting fees alone.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Chrono