Did the Radiants betray the spren?

[blackmagic3 he/him]

Jasnah states that men betrayed an oath to the spren. I was thinking that the oathpact was either already broken by the time of the Recreance or still in effect. This means that whatever the Radiants did in the Recreance caused them to betray their oaths to the spren. So the Recreance was the spren leaving men(Radiants) en-masse.

[lummi he/him]

It could be that Recreance happened because spren left them not the other way around.

[marianmi]

I shall put forward an issue I have talked about before:

 

Who were the radiants in the Feverstone Keep vision suppose to be fighting with?

 

I did not look like it was a Desolation (it was after the Last Desolation anyway)... is it possible that the radiants were tricked to fight in an unjust cause (e.g. the enslavement of the parshendi?) - thus betraying (albeit unwittingly) their oath to the spren?

[Colby Jack he/him]

As a species, sprens don't struck me as an entity who would care all that much about humans and their politics. Maybe honorsprens like Syl will have a problem with dishonorable usage of their powers, but I doubt other sprens would. Remember, Janash said that some of them were killed in the Great Betrayal. So whatever happened, it must have involved both parties.

I find it a bit odd that both the sprens and human records specifically said that the Knight Radiant betrayed them. So I think this meant that either the Knight Radiant went behind everyone back and did something horrible or they became neutral and pissed both sides off. It's honestly too early to tell what happen.

My best theory right now is that the Knight Radiant tried to kill Cultivation or whatever, but that's a bit flimsy and unbelievable. Honor's still alive at the point and he reflects on them fondly, so they couldn't have tried to do him in, right?

[Dros]

I would lean toward the "death" of spren as an unintended consequence of the Recreance. In view of these new revelations, this quote from one of the Epigraphs, which most thought (as well as I) was a KR speaking about the splintering on Honor, might actually be speaking of the loss of the Nahel Bond also. 

 

 

 

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

 

It's my understanding that Honor is thought to still be alive during the Recreance, so this particular KR seems surprised by the absence of his bond, as if he expected it to remain. Could be he isn't understanding what's happening and calling to his Creator for an answer.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Dros

[hoser he/him]

It's my understanding that Honor is thought to still be alive during the Recreance, so this particular KR seems surprised by the absence of his bond, as if he expected it to remain. Could be he isn't understanding what's happening and calling to his Creator for an answer.

Do you have a source for this?  I knew he was around when the Heralds packed it in, but my ever-worsening memory seems surprised by this. 

[Bremen]

I think that epigraph might be a spren speaking.

 

"Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?"

[Moogle]

I think that epigraph might be a spren speaking.

 

"Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?"

 

I think it's a Radiant speaking. Think about Syl's bond with Kaladin - it's like Syl got a piece of Kal's soul, almost.

[Dros]

Do you have a source for this?  I knew he was around when the Heralds packed it in, but my ever-worsening memory seems surprised by this. 

 

Honestly, my recollection was of the discussion here on the forums. I can't be sure the issue was resolved though. The first link below has a quote saying the question to Brandon of whether Honor was dead before the Recreance would be RAFOed. However, it was my feeling that the vision of the Recreance was too detailed for it to be of a "possible future" as envisioned by Honor simply because he's no good at it by his own admission. All up for argument, of course.

 

Threads:

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3362-when-did-odium-kill-honor/

 

and this one:

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3005-honor-died/

[Bremen]

I think it's a Radiant speaking. Think about Syl's bond with Kaladin - it's like Syl got a piece of Kal's soul, almost.

Syl getting a piece of Kal's soul would support a spren talking.

 

It also depends on whether the "shard of my soul" is still referring to the almighty.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Bremen

[Isomere]

Do you have a source for this?  I knew he was around when the Heralds packed it in, but my ever-worsening memory seems surprised by this.

No confirmation that Honor was splintered after the Recreance, the theory is just based on Tanavast saying he was alive for most of the visions he recorded. Since Tanavast may have recorded the visions after the splintering it leaves us with virtually no idea about timecourse.

[hoser he/him]

Honestly, my recollection was of the discussion here on the forums.  ... However, it was my feeling that the vision of the Recreance was too detailed for it to be of a "possible future" as envisioned by Honor simply because he's no good at it by his own admission. ...

Thanks.  Although my terrible memory says that he said that he wasn't as good as Cultivation at seeing the future, rather than not being any good. 

[Cayden]

The question in my mind is simple. How do the KR operated Fabrials differ from those that the modern humans use. Does it enslave the spren? or does it kill them and use the trace essence? I can imagine that being part of the reason why they are so hesitant to trust humans.

 

But what if the KR had to fight one and another, different orders linked to different kingdoms? would the spren be forced to fight and kill each other? does a spren die when its Knight dies?

 

I cant see the betrayal being anything to do with the Oathpact or Tanavast. The Oathpact because I doubt the Heralds were bonded to spren, so it would not effect them the same way as the Recreance would. And Tanavast well because him dying wouldnt have been a betrayal.

 

Options to me = Recreance, Fabrials or Spren being forced to fight Spren.

 

I think the reason why there is evidence that the former Knights Radiants left and went to Shinovar is because there are no spren there. I think that was very deliberate, they went to a place of Cultivation rather than Honor, to be away from the spren.

[kraefzke]

Anyone else see this connection?

Honor surprised that spren created KR in a way similar to how he created Heralds, Heralds presumably created by or as part of Oathpact, and now this spren-talk of a broaken oath by humans? There is some serious swearing going on here (pun intanded).....

[dionysus]

Not much evidence of this but what if the betrayal wasn't the Radiants severing the bonds. Instead, humanity found a way to sever the parshendi at the end of the last desolation which created the parshmen.

 

It would make a great plot point, simply because it would be an atrocity equal to genocide to remove the consciousness of an entire race of people.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels he/him]

That is a good theory. That the betrayal the Spren were so upset at humans about is that humans somehow found a way to obliterate the individual consciousness of the entire Parshendi race (or at least a large portion that make up the Parshmen as we know them). If spren are ideas that need to be thought up in the physical realm first in order to exist in the cognitive realm, destroying the ability of a race of people to think up new ideas would be like the spren losing what is essentially a huge breeding ground for new spren.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Syl getting a piece of Kal's soul would support a spren talking.

 

It also depends on whether the "shard of my soul" is still referring to the almighty.

There is also talk from a spren of Cultivation giving up on humans / losing interest. If she was in control of spren, which there is good evidence for, then perhaps she is the cause of that problem. Almighty is typically referring to Honor, but if it is a spren speaking, perhaps Cultivation is their Almighty. 

[ericth]

I cant help but wonder if the "betrayal" the spren refer to wasnt the disbanding of the KR, but the formation in the first place.  There seems to be evidence that fabrials at least, ans possibly shard blades and shard plate and other usages *trap* spren.  Maybe the spren agreed to serve in a certain capacity and the deal got changed on them.  Maybe they are ok with the bonding to a human that gives them their powers but not with later usages such trap them.

 

As an aside, has anyone ever asked Brandon if a surge binder could disable a shard plate wearer by draining the gems that power the plate?

[marianmi]

As an aside, has anyone ever asked Brandon if a surge binder could disable a shard plate wearer by draining the gems that power the plate?

 

The Plate has Investiture "trapped" inside it - the gems do not "power" the plate as much as "recharge" it.

 

That Investiture *in* the plate cannot be "drain" (except by destroying the Plate, and the Investiture "leaks").

Similarly spren (being splinters) have a lot of Investiture -- but I don't think you can get stormlight from them. Basically they have Investiture in a different "state" (stormlight = gas, the one in plate = ???) -- which may not be used by a surgebinder.

 

EDIT: also, magic does not work on an invested object - so you can't draw from or lash Plates, Blades, etc...

Edited January 13, 2014 by marianmi

[Macen he/him]

I cant help but wonder if the "betrayal" the spren refer to wasnt the disbanding of the KR, but the formation in the first place.  There seems to be evidence that fabrials at least, ans possibly shard blades and shard plate and other usages *trap* spren.  Maybe the spren agreed to serve in a certain capacity and the deal got changed on them.  Maybe they are ok with the bonding to a human that gives them their powers but not with later usages such trap them.

I am under the opinion that Shard Blade are created by a Spren who is bonded with a Human choosing to give themselves into the Shard Blade (Thus, the Spren essentially becomes the Shard Blade). I believe the betrayal was when the KR gave up their shard blades, essentially condemning the spren to be trapped in the blade forever. *EDIT* A blade that is held by a human who then uses it to rip the souls from living beings (WoB state that the shard blade severs the soul).

I know this is a leap, but we have never seen a full KR die, so perhaps their shard blade doesn't appear like they do now. I think this is what they are referring to when they say that Spren died.

This is all major speculation though, just my working theory on the premise of how Fabrials work (assuming the ShardBlade is similar to a fabrial).

Edited January 13, 2014 by Macen

[Bremen]

What if the betrayal was humans beginning to kill the spren that inhabit great shells?

[gpmushu]

I'm normally kind of a lurker, but I wanted to jump in here to say that the newest posting of chapter 4 kind of disproves the theory that Spren sacrifice themselves to become Shardblades or are trapped to make Shardblades for their radiants.

 

Dalinar's vision in the chapter shows a Radiant with a Shardblade having a conversation with thin air, which is almost definitely the Radiant talking to her Spren.

 

Here are the quotes from the chapter in question, important parts in bold.

 

 

Dalinar nodded, then under his breath repeated the words, hoping that Navani could hear him. He and the soldiers continued their sweep, the knight at their center speaking with… nobody? She sounded like she was having a conversation, but Dalinar couldn’t see or hear anyone else with her.

 

The knight stood before the rising creature, which stood thirty feet tall, dripping water. A calm, white light began to rise from her. It reminded Dalinar of the light of spheres. Stormlight. She raised her Shardblade and charged, stepping through the water with uncanny ease, as if it had no purchase on her. Perhaps it was the strength of Shardplate.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I'm normally kind of a lurker, but I wanted to jump in here to say that the newest posting of chapter 4 kind of disproves the theory that Spren sacrifice themselves to become Shardblades or are trapped to make Shardblades for their radiants.

 

Dalinar's vision in the chapter shows a Radiant with a Shardblade having a conversation with thin air, which is almost definitely the Radiant talking to her Spren.

I agree,  but there has been talk of a Surge that might allow communication. She could have been talking to other Radiant groups. Doubt it, but still possible.

[Malim he/him]

Here's my theory on this.  Apologies in advance for its convoluted nature.

 

1) Spren normally inhabit the cognitive realm.  To my mind they can be considered to be a version of Platonic forms: i.e. the perfect representation of an item or thought.  They do not normaly inhabit the physical realm any more that the ideal concept of love, or the ideal concept of a table physically exists.  They are abstractions.

 

2) Something draws spren out of the cognitive realm into the physical, but they seem most drawn to abstract concepts (creativity, glory, honor, etc.)  Even the many of the more concrete seeming spren seem to be drawn to things that have cognitive elements.  I:E: pain is obviously a physical response, but you can't truly define it without a cognitive idea of what pain is.

 

3) Whatever the reason that spren are drawn to the physical realm, they seem to be able to be captured and kept there.  We have seen a few examples of this:  Spren being captured in fabrials comes to mind first, but there are other more subtle examples.  In one of the interludes from TWOK, we see two ardents studying flame spren.  The moment that one is measured, it becomes fixed (trapped perhaps).  This would go also go back to the Platonic ideal: if you somehow  build the ideal representation of a table, it no longer inhabits the cognitive realm, but becomes  a physical reality.

 

Another example comes from Chapter 3 of WOR:

 

As the last line dried, the pattern rose before her.  She heard a distinct sigh from the paper, as if in relief.  

She jumped, dropping the paper and scrambling onto her bed.  Unlike the other times, the embossing didn't vanish, though it left the paper - budding from her matching drawing- and moved onto the floor.

 

In this case, the form became fixed and permanent when it was physically recorded, possibly trapping the spren in the physical realm, and somehow binding it to Shallan.

 

So what does this all mean in regards to the topic?  Lets assume that all KR had a bound spren that allowed them access to their surges.  Each of these spren would have been bound to the physical realm in some way.  Now, lets say the KR then knowingly and willingly broke their bond.  What would happen?  We have a clue from Syl who tells Kaladin that she can stop what she is doing to give him surge binding, but that, (paraphrase here) she would lose her sense of self and go back to what she was before-- a mindless windspren.  (I apologize for the lack of a direct quote.  I'm in the process of moving, and my library is packed in boxes ATM)

 

So what would the lost of cognitive abilities be to a cognitive entity?  In a word, death.  That could be the betrayal that led to the "death" of so many spren: spren that now are mindless ghosts for lack of a better word that wander the physical realm, with no way back.

 

 

edited for grammar

Edited January 14, 2014 by Malim

[FirstSelector]

I agree wholeheartedly Malim, and I wrote up my similar ideas here.

 

In particular, we have the same idea of the "death" of a "living idea" - one where the spren flits around mindlessly.