New poster, New(?) theroy...

[icy1155]

So, I have lurked a long time, but finally had to create a name and post a theory I had.  I was reading the thread http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/51176-taln-is-rayse/ that is based off a WoB that implies that Taln may not be the true Herald Talenelat:

 

Q: 12. Are all the heralds aware that Taln is back?

A: If that person actually IS Taln. I'm not saying he's not, but he may not be who you would think he is.

 

While I don't agree that Taln is Rayse, it did get me thinking about who it could be if it truly isn't the Herald Talenelat and Brandon doesn't just like seeing everyone scramble to figure things out.  There were a few comments in that thread that got my mind going.  They are:

 

 

Well, of course Taln recognizes Shallan as "one of Ishar Knights". That's evidence for him being Talenelat. But why Brandon keeps calling him this way? He may twist his words as much as he likes, but he never lied, correct?

One point against Taln being Talenelat: in his chapter, at a point it is implied he is recitating his mantra, it does not show up. Instead, we hear Dalinar and Elhokar's reactions the mantra and "Taln" thinks: "The Gift. The words. Not his. Never his. Now his."

Maybe someone was forced into becoming a new Herald of War?

There are plenty of things that suggest Taln may not be Talenelat. 

Things that seem off if Taln were Rayse:

• Hoid is there when Taln arrives.  He knows and can likely sense investiture.  He has been hiding from Odium/Rayse for fear that his soul will be scattered and/or disintegrated.  He knows Rayse.  He calls Taln, "my confused, unfortunate friend” and continues with what he is doing to stop Odium/Rayse.

Now that I look closely, it's worded to indicate that Talenelat is on Roshar, but he is probably not who we think he is.

 

There is also a WoB that says:

Wetlander: Did the splintering happen before the Recreance?
 
A: I will reveal this as we go.  However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed.  So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.
 
Hoser: did Tanavast survive Honor’s splintering?
 
A: Tanavast is dead.  Good question.  However, that is as of the start of the WoK (i.e., not including the prelude at least).
 
Hoser: So he could have survived the splintering…
 
A: He could have survived the splintering.
 
Hoser: …as a mortal…
 
A: Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then…right.
 
Hoser: …passed away in his sleep…
 
A: Right. (Indicating that Tanavast would not have passed away from old age)

 
(source)

 

So... Tanavast could have survived having Honor shattered.  We know that Honor was shattered after the breaking of the Oathpact by the other Heralds, basically leaving Talenelat in Damnation to endure torture alone. 

 

So ask yourself.  You are the god of Honor.  Your chosen champions break their oaths and leave one of their kind to suffer eternal torture to spare themselves.  What are you to do.

 

My theory is that Tanavast may have allowed Honor to be splintered (or maybe Odium did it without his consent.  Doesn't really matter).  After Honor was splintered and he left the messages with the Stormfather, Tanavast took the place of Talenelat in Damnation to suffer eternal torture.  If you read the second letter, it says:

 

Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited. Whether this was Tanavast’s design or not, millennia have passed without Rayse taking the life of another of the sixteen.

 

Now, I may be reading to much into that, but it sounds like Tanavast chose to do something to trap Odium.  That fits into my theory.  Odium would still have killed Tanavast, just like he killed the heralds.  What he may not have expected is that Tanavast's honor required him to suffer in place of Talenelat and that he would bear the torture and keep Odium occupied, not letting him continue on his quest. 

 

I'm sure there are things I'm missing here... what do you guys think of theory #1?

Edited December 18, 2015 by icy1155

[icy1155]

So theory #2 is about who the Herald Talenelat actually is in the world.  I agree with Stormgate's quote above, and I'll take it a step further and say I think we have seen him in the books.  My best guess is that Talenelat is Mraize. 

 

This is a WAG, here is what leads me to think this:

 

1) Mraize's scar across his face was mentioned spefcifically, and one thing we know about Talenelat is he had a significant enough scar that they named a whole constellation after him. 

2) In addition, the way that he learns about new people is by looking at the weapons that they use.  Sounds like something the Herald of War would do. 

3) He tells Shallan that the Ghostbloods goals aren't in conflict with being a Knight. 

4) Finally, the similarity of his name to Rayse has always bugged me.  Perhaps he is someone who lost his power as a Herald when Tanavast took his place, but is doing what he can to fight Rayse/Odium with what he has left. 

 

Like I said, this one is more of a WAG, but it just seems to fit. No supporting info/quotes on this one. Just an itch in my mind.

Edited December 18, 2015 by icy1155

[VoltCruelerz he/him]

So to summarize, Maybe-Taln is Tanavast and Actual-Talenelat is Mraize.

That actually seems to make a good deal of sense and lines up with the comment made by the herald chasing Lift that Yaezir (Azish name for Tanavast) is drooling.

[icy1155]

I had forgotten about that part.  Now that you mention it, it does fit quite nicely

[Yata he/him]

Something it wrong here:

You are suggest that the real Taln is Mraize and that the tortured-one was Tanavast right ?

But if Tanavast has "little time" after the Honor's Splintering. He can't survive thousands of years after (also if he wasn't already half-dead).

[Oversleep]

First of all, I, the one who made up the "Taln is Rayse" theory, don't really believe it. I just thought it's not entirely impossible and posted it to give people something to think about.
 

So to summarize, Maybe-Taln is Tanavast and Actual-Talenelat is Mraize.

That actually seems to make a good deal of sense and lines up with the comment made by the herald chasing Lift that Yaezir (Azish name for Tanavast) is drooling.

Yaezir is the name for Jezrien. The King of Heralds.

Oh! I just realized something. In my language, 'j' is pronounced how 'y' is in English. So Yaezir and Jezrien were similar for me... Maybe it's the way it is with Jasnah - her name is pronounced 'Yasnah'.
------------------------
I suggest to name the person who showed up at the end of WoK "Taln" and the Herald of War "Talenelat".
 

Something it wrong here:
You are suggest that the real Taln is Mraize and that the tortured-one was Tanavast right ?
But if Tanavast has "little time" after the Honor's Splintering. He can't survive thousands of years after (also if he wasn't already half-dead).

Well, Heralds were human and they do survive thousands of years. Tanavast may have used that mechanism which is preserving them on himself.

But we have a theory-killer in the same quote icy1155 used:
 

 

Hoser: did Tanavast survive Honor’s splintering?
 
A: Tanavast is dead.  Good question.  However, that is as of the start of the WoK (i.e., not including the prelude at least).

Edited December 18, 2015 by Oversleep

[Khyrindor he/him]

So to summarize, Maybe-Taln is Tanavast and Actual-Talenelat is Mraize.

That actually seems to make a good deal of sense and lines up with the comment made by the herald chasing Lift that Yaezir (Azish name for Tanavast) is drooling.

Yaezir actually would mean Jezrien, people deified the Heralds to become a lot more than they were/are. This has lead some people to suspect that the old man at the Beggar's Feast in the prologue of WoK was Jezrien. Also, it fits the pronounciation. It's just that, to a lot of people, Jezrien and Honor/Tanavast/Stormfather/Almighty are one and the same, but coming from a Herald, Nin likely meant Jezrien the Herald.

[icy1155]

Something it wrong here:

You are suggest that the real Taln is Mraize and that the tortured-one was Tanavast right ?

But if Tanavast has "little time" after the Honor's Splintering. He can't survive thousands of years after (also if he wasn't already half-dead).

 

Basically, I'm thinking that he was actually killed shortly after Honor being splintered, but instead of a "final" death he was instead sent to where the heralds resided between desolations when they died.

[Khyrindor he/him]

So to summarize, Maybe-Taln is Tanavast and Actual-Talenelat is Mraize.

That actually seems to make a good deal of sense and lines up with the comment made by the herald chasing Lift that Yaezir (Azish name for Tanavast) is drooling.

Yaezir actually would mean Jezrien, people deified the Heralds to become a lot more than they were/are. This has lead some people to suspect that the old man at the Beggar's Feast in the prologue of WoK was Jezrien. Also, it fits the pronounciation. It's just that, to a lot of people, Jezrien and Honor/Tanavast/Stormfather/Almighty are one and the same, but coming from a Herald, Nin likely meant Jezrien the Herald.

Back on topic, I like your theory a lot, Icy. Have an upvote. I also don't agree that Taln is Rayse because of the reasons you mentioned; Hoid seems to have beef with Rayse, so I don't think he would have welcomed him into a sizable city. However, does Hoid know what's up? Who knows. He definitely knows more than we do.

(Also, it's generally frowned upon to double post, icy, usually people will edit their original, or wait until someone else posted.)

About your second theory, I never drew those parallel's myself, but I'm hesitant to agree that Mraize is the real Taln. Mraize is a known Thaylen worldhopper with a babsk, Iyatil. I just don't know why someone like the Herald of War wouldn't be trusted on his own without the supervisation of his babsk. Unless Iyatil is WAY more important than we think.

Anyway, just my two cents. Welcome to the Shard! You'll like it here.

 

EDIT: Some kind of weird glitch happened, sorry about the weirdness, I tried to edit my original post but instead this one posted. 

Edited December 18, 2015 by Khyrindor

[icy1155]

Thanks for the note on etiquette, didn't know that one around here.  Figured it would help separate things, but I'll remember it for the future. 

 

Like I said... the theory about Mraise and Taln is the weaker of the two and way out there, but it seemed to work in my head.  The points you make are great, and they bother me too.  He just seems... odd, which is what drew me to him.  He initially reminds Shallan of Hoid but not in looks, and to me that meant something along the lines of being ancient or powerful or... well something.  As soon as he turns to her she sees in his eyes a look that reminds her "of battles, of killing, and of strife. This was not the messenger from Shallan’s past."
 

Then when I was thinking of who Talenelat was a few things clicked, but yeah, some things don't make sense about that.  By reading, Shallan says she cant place where he is from, but we have a WoP that he is from Thaylenar.  If he was Thaylen, wouldn't Shallan recognize his accent an/or looks (eyebrows)?  Unless maybe he was from a Thaylen that existed several thousand years ago?  It's commonly accepted that Iyatil is his babsk, but perhaps that is only in terms of worldhopping.  If she has experience at it and he met up with her after he came back (sometime after the Recrence) it's conceivable that a former herald could be learning from her. 

Edited December 18, 2015 by icy1155

[icy1155]

 But we have a theory-killer in the same quote icy1155 used:

 

Quote

 

Hoser: did Tanavast survive Honor’s splintering?

 

A: Tanavast is dead.  Good question.  However, that is as of the start of the WoK (i.e., not including the prelude at least).

Yes, at the start of WoK he is dead... the "Herald" doesn't return until the end.  Until that time he would be in damnation and would be "dead". Maybe.

 

 

I suggest to name the person who showed up at the end of WoK "Taln" and the Herald of War "Talenelat".

Good idea.  It would keep the confusion down. I'll try to go back and edit things to make that a little clearer, including some of the quotes from other people just so that wording stays the same through my theory and all of the quotes.

Edited December 18, 2015 by icy1155

[Yata he/him]

The Heralds between the desolations are tortured without end. They are not dead.

[Patrick Star]

Cool, crazy Taln theory #3.

 

Ever watched "Mad Max"?  With a Herald, they live, they die, they live again.

 

Once they die, they come right back to life.  They don't stay dead.  They're transported to Braize, alive.

 

Saying "Tanavest is dead" means that he stayed dead.  So he's not Taln.  Because he's dead.

[CthulhuSpren]

Quick questions: how do the heralds get back to roshar, what signals them? -if they do- and how do they get back: through shadesmar?, and why would they be let back?

[Yata he/him]

Quick questions: how do the heralds get back to roshar, what signals them? -if they do- and how do they get back: through shadesmar?, and why would they be let back?

When Taln returns he was covered by the same "wetness" that the Shardblades take with them when summoned.

Therefore i suppose that both came by the same place. Probably Shadesmar but I am not sure.

[Stormgate he/him]

Perhaps they go to the Spiritual Realm.

[Moogle]

When Taln returns he was covered by the same "wetness" that the Shardblades take with them when summoned.

Therefore i suppose that both came by the same place. Probably Shadesmar but I am not sure.

 

I suspect that the wetness is due to the general property of magic on Roshar to consume heat. If I had to guess, the mechanic is something like that if you want to open up a gate to the Spiritual for its energy, you need to either have Investiture or to expend matter/energy.

 

I am thinking Shardblades are cool enough to cause condensation when you summon them, in other words. Taln being wet could be because the frost from Surgebinding melted on him.

 

This is all just speculation, though.

 

I don't think Shardblades are stored in the Cognitive? Seems more like they're part of the Spiritual when they're not summoned. But I suppose Pattern mentioning that his people tried to do what they could for the dead spren suggests they might be. Hm... something to think about.

[Yata he/him]

I suspect that the wetness is due to the general property of magic on Roshar to consume heat. If I had to guess, the mechanic is something like that if you want to open up a gate to the Spiritual for its energy, you need to either have Investiture or to expend matter/energy.

 

I am thinking Shardblades are cool enough to cause condensation when you summon them, in other words. Taln being wet could be because the frost from Surgebinding melted on him.

 

This is all just speculation, though.

 

I don't think Shardblades are stored in the Cognitive? Seems more like they're part of the Spiritual when they're not summoned. But I suppose Pattern mentioning that his people tried to do what they could for the dead spren suggests they might be. Hm... something to think about.

I am not sure about it. As fas as I understand of the Spiritual Realm it's pretty weird that something is here and then can be summoned at will through the realms.

But here i can't say nothing for sure.

In a WoB there is "examples" of visiting the Spiritual Realm and this examples are things of many many power used to do it.

[icy1155]

The Heralds between the desolations are tortured without end. They are not dead.

 

Cool, crazy Taln theory #3.

 

Ever watched "Mad Max"?  With a Herald, they live, they die, they live again.

 

Once they die, they come right back to life.  They don't stay dead.  They're transported to Braize, alive.

 

Saying "Tanavest is dead" means that he stayed dead.  So he's not Taln.  Because he's dead.

 

Is there anything anywhere that says that they are alive on Braize?

 

 

Kalak nodded. Taln had a tendency to choose seemingly hopeless fights and win them. He also had a tendency to die in the process. He would be back now, in the place where they went between Desolations. The place of nightmares.

 

This says that when they die go there, but it doesn't say anything about being alive, just being tortured eternally. 

[Oversleep]

Is there anything anywhere that says that they are alive on Braize?

 

 

This says that when they die go there, but it doesn't say anything about being alive, just being tortured eternally. 

If you're dead, there is no point in torturing you - and Kalak mentions feeling the tortures, so he must had been alive during it.

[Melriken]

If you're dead, there is no point in torturing you - and Kalak mentions feeling the tortures, so he must had been alive during it.

Unless Braize is a hell analog, then maybe they count as dead while there and that is why they don't die to all the torture...

[icy1155]

Unless Braize is a hell analog, then maybe they count as dead while there and that is why they don't die to all the torture...

 

My thoughts exactly.  If that is a case, the WoB about Tanavast being dead at the start of WoK is totally true, he just trolled everyone by making it sound like he was only referring to the prelude when he hedged his comment. When he says the at least at the end it leaves a lot of room for him to mess with us.

 

 

Hoser: did Tanavast survive Honor’s splintering?

 

A: Tanavast is dead.  Good question.  However, that is as of the start of the WoK (i.e., not including the prelude at least).