AuthorityHellas16 - When Good Angels Do Nothing - Chapters 1 & 2 (4790 words) [V,D]

[AuthorityHellas16 he/him]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for the great feedback on the prologue of "When Good Angels Do Nothing.” Attached is the first two chapters of the book proper. As always, any and all feedback on characters, world building, establishment of promises etc. will be welcomed with open arms. 

 

Last Time:

The traitorous Archangel Lucifer escorted the Okhar (Archangel) Hellas to Earth and attempted to sway him to the side of the Fallen. Hellas refused when he realised Lucifer had been corrupted by Abaddon, the Devourer and most powerful of the Demon Gods. 

Hellas escaped back to Heaven and was able to defeat Lucifer’s legions of Fallen angels with the help of Michael, the Imperator of the Heavenly Host, and Catherine, commander of the elite Steel Hawks Legion. 

Lucifer was stopped only moments before he could kill the Trinity and expelled from Heaven. 

 

Twelve years later, Hellas awakens to find that he is being placed under arrest by Heaven’s secret police, the Inquisition. 

[Mandamon he/him]

I liked this submission a lot more than last week's.

 

(Hellas refused when he realised Lucifer had been corrupted by Abaddon, the Devourer and most powerful of the Demon Gods.

--did we learn this last time?  I don't remember making this conclusion)

 

The intro is completely different from anything we've seen so far.  It's exciting and I want to read more about it, but it seems to share nothing at all with the story from last week.

 

pg 2-3 In reference to by comments from last week, I'm getting more of an Asgard feel from the city of Heaven--an advanced culture and beings humans call "angels."

 

The description here fills in a lot of the questions I had in the prologue.

 

pg 4: "bale of hay"

--that's an odd thing to have in this high-tech culture.

--I gather he's been arrested before, but I'm not sure why. 

 

Pg 6: I'm really liking these intermediate scenes, but they still seem completely unconnected with the culture I'm seeing in the rest of the book.  There's a lot of names I don't recognize vs. recognizing most of the names in the prologue.  You also seem to be saying that Mor = Elohim? Sort of confused.  (Edit: I figured this out later.  Again, the prologue gave me a different idea of what I was reading).

 

Pg 6:"long-forgotten life before he had become “Hellas.”

--Good hook on what he was before.

--This gives some explanation as to the differences I see, but the whole thing is so different I'm wondering how you get from the cut scenes to Heaven.  It's making me want to read more to find out.

 

pg 9: "flames moved and shaped themselves into a small, serpentine creature, like a tiny orange dragon."

--cool

 

pg 16: "Scrios’ gaze softened; he saw the pain in Hellas’ eyes, the way he avoided eye contact, how his shoulders suddenly slumped. Scrios could empathise with the boy; he had felt the same pain long ago, and even the span of centuries had done little to ease it."

--This is drifting into Scrios' POV.

 

 

These next two chapters answer most of the questions I had in the prologue, to the point where I wonder if the prologue is even necessary?  I think I learned all I needed from these chapters, and I like this story a lot better.  I wasn't sure about the story I was reading in the prologue.  However, I do want to read the one you give me in chapters 1-2.

 

Looking forward to more!

Edited December 14, 2015 by Mandamon

[AuthorityHellas16 he/him]

Hi again, Mandamon. Thanks for reading!

 

I'm glad you liked the direction of the story. Hopefully that continues

 

These next two chapters answer most of the questions I had in the prologue, to the point where I wonder if the prologue is even necessary?  I think I learned all I needed from these chapters, and I like this story a lot better.  I wasn't sure about the story I was reading in the prologue.  However, I do want to read the one you give me in chapters 1-2.

 

I mainly included the prologue to provide worldbuilding and introducing some of the major characters. I also wanted to give the war between Heaven and the hellspawn a bit of context, explaining Lucifer's goals and motivations and making him a somewhat sympathetic villain (which would be difficult given his name and the connotations it carries). It also allowed me to introduce elements such as the magic system without resorting to infodumps later on (which I HATE).

The hook at the end of the prologue was meant to run straight into the first chapter. Did the change seem jarring to you? Is there a way I could make this clearer? 

 

Pg 6: I'm really liking these intermediate scenes, but they still seem completely unconnected with the culture I'm seeing in the rest of the book.  There's a lot of names I don't recognize vs. recognizing most of the names in the prologue.  You also seem to be saying that Mor = Elohim? Sort of confused.  (Edit: I figured this out later.  Again, the prologue gave me a different idea of what I was reading).

 

Pg 6:"long-forgotten life before he had become “Hellas.”

--Good hook on what he was before.

--This gives some explanation as to the differences I see, but the whole thing is so different I'm wondering how you get from the cut scenes to Heaven.  It's making me want to read more to find out.

 

I'm glad you like the flashbacks. Basically, in terms of formatting I took a leaf out of Brandon Sanderson's book (pun intended). Just as he prefaces every chapter in the Mistborn trilogy with a historical record that becomes significant at the end of the book, I'm prefacing every "part" with a flashback from Hellas' forgotten past. In an earlier draft I sprinkled these through the story proper but I found them to be clunky and slow down the story. This first flashback Hellas has repeats segments from the introduction to establish right from the onset what those prefaces are. Was that clear, or can it be improved?

 

 

pg 2-3 In reference to by comments from last week, I'm getting more of an Asgard feel from the city of Heaven--an advanced culture and beings humans call "angels."

 

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I was going for. Heaven is much more of a "sufficiently-advanced technology" with biological-based "magic," rather than anything supernatural.

 

(Hellas refused when he realised Lucifer had been corrupted by Abaddon, the Devourer and most powerful of the Demon Gods.

--did we learn this last time?  I don't remember making this conclusion)

 

 

It does now . I changed the prologue to explicitly mention Abaddon as the Bigger Bad behind Lucifer's actions. Hopefully that makes it clearer. 

 

Looking forward to more!

 

There's a lot more to come! The whole manuscript is ~116k words (after some major cutting), spread out over 44 chapters. So there's a lot still to come. I'm thrilled you like it so far

Edited December 15, 2015 by AuthorityHellas16

[Robinski he/him]

Detailed comments below, of which there are many – sorry! It’s because I was so engaged with the story and your writing style, which I enjoy, but I do have some concerns. My main problem is that we don’t get to understand why Hellas is being banished until very late in Chapter 2 and when we do, my sympathy for him evaporated. I don’t think you’ve explained (shown) why we should sympathise with him, why he is tragic and not just self-obsessed, whiny and indulgent. By the same token, we don’t get the chance at the beginning to dislike him, which would be equally acceptable, because we don’t get a clear view of the reason for his situation.

 

In other news, I very much enjoy your writing style. I think the care that you’ve taken in constructing the prose is clear. I like the expressive passages, the description, the setting and the characters (largely), however I think the protagonist needs work.

 

Detailed comments below. Looking forward to your next submission!

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

I like the introduction, very effective, and then picked up easily from where the prologue left off. I found your description of the setting, which painted an impressive picture for me. In this first page or so, I already have a much better (clearer) impression of the omnipotence of God as expressed through the surroundings far more effectively than in the prologue.

 

I'm surprised to find that Elohim is a Forger, but more so that he is an archangel. I thought he would be above all that, as God, a being above the rest of the categories.

 

“His staff, once the symbol of his great skill as a Forger was missing” – hmm, interesting...

 

“Even at this hour…” – repetition of ‘even’ in close proximity

 

Interesting choice to repeat the text from the first dream before continuing, I'm in two minds. It’s only five pages ago when we read it first, so it’s still fresh in my mind, to the point that I wonder if it wouldn’t be more effective to skip straight to the new bit of the dream, or only have a couple of lines of repetition.

 

I like the dream sequence, but I am having one issue. There is a lot of new information in these first pages. One set would be fine, but we are getting two separate streams of names and events, one in the present and one in the dream. It’s a fair bit to contend with and is starting to get info-dumpy here in the dream.

 

I do like the mixing of tenses, one in the present, another in the dream.

 

“He sat himself up against the wall,” – this is a thing – ‘himself’ is redundant, I think this is the second time you’ve used it.

 

I like that you go straight into the trial very quickly, out early, in late – nice.

 

“found guilty of your crimes” – I'm not clear on what his crimes are. There was a brief curtailed list earlier on, but it wasn’t really explained.

 

“prepared himself to leave” – again. I think without it, the prose is more immediate and flows better.

 

The appearance of the sprite puzzles me. Up to now, the mythology has been very much religious in tone and grounded in biblical themes, but the sprite seems completely separate from that. I found it quite jarring. Also, for me, it changed the tone of the story in one fell swoop from being a serious and epic fantasy to something altogether softer and ‘younger’.

 

“protest against the treatment of their commander” – I don’t know how to feel about this, because I don’t know what he actually did.

 

“the portal between Heaven and the Middle Kingdom” – this seems like another unexpected oriental reference.

 

“Good luck out their sir” – there.

 

“He heard the tides lapping softly” – waves, surely.

 

I like your description of Hellas’ arrival in the Middle Kingdom, nice imagery, nicely written.

 

“Hellas confidently strolled…” – when it comes to grammar, I'm a boring traditionalist. I know that popular thinking increasingly challenges these grammatical ‘rules’, but I honestly believe that comes from people who can’t be bothered to learn or take the time to write properly. Hence, I raise the matter of split infinitives, such as the above, vs. ‘Hellas strolled confidently...” Do I come across as a pompous arse? Probably. Do I give sh1t? No   :-)

 

I love the dryads. Up until the dragon spirit appeared, the tone of the story was dark and quite gritty (I thought), and I commented above on the dragon being a surprise. It felt like a twist into Pokemon / Manga territory. However, you handle the childlike dryads very well, I thought, a lovely fairytale note.

 

I'm now thinking heaven is a miserable, depressing place and the Middle Kingdom is full of wonder and simple pleasure. Why would Hellas want to be anywhere else?

 

“rushed through the forest floor” – sounds like they’re going underground

 

“As they walked, small spheres” – I thought they were rushing.

 

“taking a thousand different forms” – This implies there are thousands of dryads, but I don’t get that impression from the description.

 

Again, love the dryads and their transparent, childlike emotional range with which Scrios’ fatherly voice fits perfectly, of course.

 

“What have you achieved with this childish crusade of yours?” – We still don’t know what exactly he has done, what form his rebellion takes – which I think is an omission.

 

“You spend more time out of Heaven than in it, and every second you are away is another second the Host can’t protect the city” – I like the first part of this thought, but I struggle to accept that the host would do nothing in his absence if Heaven was attacked, it’s a real black mark against their character.

 

“It’ll end with Lucifer in the Temple and Abaddon rampaging across the Middle Kingdom” – How does this follow? I don’t get it.

 

“Illegal possession of alcohol and unethical interactions with criminal elements” – I feel that this reveal comes much too late. Up to this point, I’ve been thinking that Hellas is pursuing some noble cause, because that is how it’s painted. I think that the story, up to this point, invites the reader to feel sympathy with Hellas’ plight, but now we learn that he does not deserve that sympathy. I feel like the story has misled me. I wonder why we didn’t just see Hellas roaring drunk when they arrested him. That way, we could spend the time wondering how had fallen so low.

 

I do like the introduction of ‘she’ – that’s a nice mystery to contemplate.

 

“You’d be knee deep in drink too if you’d been what I’ve been through” – this sounds whiny to me. Depending on the circumstances, I could feel sympathy for Hellas, but not if he goes around whining at people about how unfortunate he is. I don’t believe that heroes do that.

 

“Scrios could empathise with the boy; he had felt the same pain long ago, and even the span of centuries had done little to ease it” – We’ve fallen into Scrios’ pov here, but I'm sure we’ve been in Hellas’ up to now.

 

“stared pointlessly into the dark” – not sure ‘pointlessly’ is the word.

 

“her final, parting message” – Not sure it’s her final parting message, surely you can only have one parting message. It read awkwardly to me.

[Robinski he/him]

One of these weeks, I'll just stop commenting and just 'like' Mandamon's...

[AuthorityHellas16 he/him]

Always a pleasure to have you comment, Robinski! Appreciate your comments, and thanks for bringing up so many great points (which everyone on this forum seems to be full of!)

Detailed comments below, of which there are many – sorry! It’s because I was so engaged with the story and your writing style, which I enjoy, but I do have some concerns. My main problem is that we don’t get to understand why Hellas is being banished until very late in Chapter 2 and when we do, my sympathy for him evaporated. I don’t think you’ve explained (shown) why we should sympathise with him, why he is tragic and not just self-obsessed, whiny and indulgent. By the same token, we don’t get the chance at the beginning to dislike him, which would be equally acceptable, because we don’t get a clear view of the reason for his situation.

I'm glad you're engaged with the story, that's very gratifying to me as a writer! And thanks again for tearing Hellas apart; I want to create a compelling hero, and the fact that you find him otherwise means that a few things need to be changed.

To a certain degree, Hellas' actions here are meant to seem unsympathetic and selfish; he deliberately skirts authority and betrays Heaven's laws in many ways just to spite those in charge, because he hates the way they run the war (further explanation below). But Scrios' whole point was that his acting out is childish. His transition away from this, and towards a far nobler, more focussed, goal, is a major part of his development.

However, the reason he drinks in the first place is because he is suffering from very serious PTSD, and alcohol helps him calm down. He was one of the few survivors when the Host Company he was in charge of was ambushed and decimated by hellspawn, and then a few short years later he lost his wife. That, combined with being a centrepiece of Heaven's defence against the hellspawn, has shattered his psyche and forced him to alcohol to cope (he has to drink to calm himself during every battle, which is shown later). So while you're not wrong calling his actions whiny and childish, there is a reason behind them. My solution to fixing this problem is explained below.

 

I'm surprised to find that Elohim is a Forger, but more so that he is an archangel. I thought he would be above all that, as God, a being above the rest of the categories.

Yeah, that was meant to be a surprise. Making Elohim an Okhar that has been deified by His brothers and sisters, as well as the angels He created, made Him much more fallible; if God was omnipotent and infallible, there would be no problems and no reason to rebel, right? This isn't really something that's explained, so I should perhaps point that out sooner.

 

Interesting choice to repeat the text from the first dream before continuing, I'm in two minds. It’s only five pages ago when we read it first, so it’s still fresh in my mind, to the point that I wonder if it wouldn’t be more effective to skip straight to the new bit of the dream, or only have a couple of lines of repetition.

I like the dream sequence, but I am having one issue. There is a lot of new information in these first pages. One set would be fine, but we are getting two separate streams of names and events, one in the present and one in the dream. It’s a fair bit to contend with and is starting to get info-dumpy here in the dream.

This relates to my point above about Hellas' PTSD. In the next chapter there's a flashback to the moment when his Company was ambushed and slaughtered. If I were to swap it with the flashback in this chapter, that solves a number of problems:
1) the reader stay with the characters and the setting we know, preventing the info-dump feeling
2) the reader get some sense of Hellas' deep-seated emotional trauma, which provides justification for him acting out (slightly)
3) The text at the start of the chapter can settle, giving the repetition more impact.
What do you think?

 

“found guilty of your crimes” – I'm not clear on what his crimes are. There was a brief curtailed list earlier on, but it wasn’t really explained.
“protest against the treatment of their commander” – I don’t know how to feel about this, because I don’t know what he actually did.

This is an editing issue. I had the guard (Stephen) explain Hellas' crimes to him when he was jailed, but I cut it without a second thought. I'll add that detail in somewhere so it makes more sense.

 

The appearance of the sprite puzzles me. Up to now, the mythology has been very much religious in tone and grounded in biblical themes, but the sprite seems completely separate from that. I found it quite jarring. Also, for me, it changed the tone of the story in one fell swoop from being a serious and epic fantasy to something altogether softer and ‘younger’.

 

 

I guess this is really where the story starts to drift away from its biblical influence and becomes its own story. I also figured that Rakha's appearance would be a good way to allow the reader to breathe and step away from the heavy content up to this point. Is there a better way to do it, you reckon?

 

“You spend more time out of Heaven than in it, and every second you are away is another second the Host can’t protect the city” – I like the first part of this thought, but I struggle to accept that the host would do nothing in his absence if Heaven was attacked, it’s a real black mark against their character.

Yeah, this is a good point. I'll soften the strength of this statement to make the Host seem more competent

“It’ll end with Lucifer in the Temple and Abaddon rampaging across the Middle Kingdom” – How does this follow? I don’t get it.

The explanation is that Lucifer can search for Abaddon who is trapped in the Void; Abaddon is a being of such great power that once he returns (unless the good guys have a massive army and a great plan) everyone will be toast. I should add this in by way of explanation.

“You’d be knee deep in drink too if you’d been what I’ve been through” – this sounds whiny to me. Depending on the circumstances, I could feel sympathy for Hellas, but not if he goes around whining at people about how unfortunate he is. I don’t believe that heroes do that.

Thanks for pointing this out. One of the things I really tried to avoid here is "Wangst," that is whiny, unnecessary angst from the main character, because like you said, it makes them seem much less heroic. I reckon if we have a little more context here that might help, but I'll probably tone down Hellas' complaining.

“Hellas confidently strolled…” – when it comes to grammar, I'm a boring traditionalist. I know that popular thinking increasingly challenges these grammatical ‘rules’, but I honestly believe that comes from people who can’t be bothered to learn or take the time to write properly. Hence, I raise the matter of split infinitives, such as the above, vs. ‘Hellas strolled confidently...” Do I come across as a pompous arse? Probably. Do I give sh1t? No :-)

Haha, absolutely no worries. I'm a bit of a grammar Nazi too in my own way. Please comment on grammar wherever you find it; I'd be willing to wager a few slipped through the cracks.

Thanks for all your feedback, both positive and negative. I'm thrilled that you're engaging with the story, yet still able to poke enough holes in it I could market it as a New English cheese (bonus points if you got that reference ). I look forward to submitting more in the coming weeks

Edited December 17, 2015 by AuthorityHellas16

[AuthorityHellas16 he/him]

This is the flashback from the next chapter. I've put it here because I'm in the process of switching it and the flashback in chapter 1 and I'd rather not resubmit the chapters. 

 

I could see it all: the enormous mountain casting a shadow over everything within a mile of its awesome height; the ruins of Elohim’s ancient fortress, the Citadel; the thousands of hellspawn that surrounded us. And the brave soldiers that I commanded: my Fourth Company.

When a group of soldiers are put in a hopeless situation they can react in a few different ways. They can panic, try to escape and preserve themselves at the cost of their mission. They may sink into despair and be butchered without a fight, again at the cost of their mission. Or they can dig in and resolve to take their enemy with them to the grave. I had trained my company ruthlessly so they would complete their mission when everything went wrong. And they did me proud.

We fought for a full day, beating the foul hellspawn back. From sunrise to sunset, the Fourth Company refused to give in, refused to crack and refused to surrender. 

But every time they came, more of us fell, and for every man who fell, three more felt their will to fight slipping away. As the sun set that evening, only three hundred of us were left. 

And the enemy continued to wear us down. 

The final hellspawn attack came just as the sun slipped below the horizon. Many of us thought that this would be our last stand. We were too exhausted to continue and too tired to flee. All the will in the world was not enough to stave away the exhaustion that haunted our bodies. 

Nevertheless, my soldiers fought on heedless of the losses we suffered, but remained aware of their own exhaustion, their own inadequacy. I saw Host Brigadier Helena, my second in command, decapitated by a Skulldrake. Beside me was my Chief Warrant Officer, Tyrus, lying face down in a pool of his own blood. I alone remained standing, fighting through wounds and exhaustion. But part of me just wanted to lie down, to accept my fate for this whole thing to be over.

I still don’t know why I survived and they didn’t. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by AuthorityHellas16

[Mandamon he/him]

One of these weeks, I'll just stop commenting and just 'like' Mandamon's...

 

Heh...great minds and all that.

 

@AuthorityHellas, I've been on the receiving end of Robinski's grammar stick enough myself!  glad to see someone else getting it. ;-)

Also, general note, you tend to reply to our comments with a lot of explanation, which is great, but you also give explanation outside the story to back up what you're saying.  I'd challenge you to somehow bring that information into the story, which should then get rid of the source of our questions!

[rohyu he/him]

The intro to chapter 1 did a good job getting me excited about what is to come. The intermission/dream sequence/flashback that goes back to the fight with Abaddon made me realize the italicized parts happened in the past, but I am still excited to see another large battle take place later in the book, presumably involving Hellas in some way. I agree with Robinski about the repetition of part of the flashback not being needed though.

 

I like Rahka. It (he?) provided a cute counterbalance to the seriousness of being exiled from heaven.

 

You did a good job inserting a new, interesting plot-point into the mix when Jess was brought up during the conversation between Scrios and Hellas.

 

You gave out a lot of information in chapter one without boring me. I was a little confused when Hellas was walking past the statues and discussing the wars, it was a lot of names to take in. But after re-reading the section I think I understand the basics of what happened in the wars.

 

Pg3:His arms were spread widehis face fixed in a permanent...

 

Small typo.

 

Pg4:Even over a decade after Lucifer had walked into the Temple with almost no resistance, security was still incredibly tight around the Temple.

 

 

Like Mand, chapter one answered a lot of the concerns I had about the prologue. For instance, the inquisitors acknowledging that the temple was too easy for Lucifer to break into makes the meager defense in the prologue believable.

 

Pg4:He sat himself down and massaged his wrists, kneading at the deep marks where the tight handcuffs had buried into his skin.

 

I think at this point the cuffs are off of Hellas, but the guards never took them off.

 

Pg14:You can see him tomorrow,’ Scrios assured them The news that Hellas would be staying

 

I think you missed a period between 'them' and 'The'.

 

Pg15:‘Nearly a years later,I’m not so sure.'

 

 

Another small typo I think.

 

I've really enjoyed the story so far. I think Robinski might be right that making Hellas more sympathetic might make the story even better though.

[Robinski he/him]

I've been on the receiving end of Robinski's grammar stick... 

 

Ah, a new title, excellent!!

 

 

 

I'd challenge you to somehow bring that information into the story, which should then get rid of the source of our questions!

 

At the risk of sounding sycophantic, sometimes I wish I could like your posts twice, oh wise one.

[Mandamon he/him]

 

I've been on the receiving end of Robinski's grammar stick... 

 

Ah, a new title, excellent!!

 

 

 

I'd challenge you to somehow bring that information into the story, which should then get rid of the source of our questions!

 

At the risk of sounding sycophantic, sometimes I wish I could like your posts twice, oh wise one.

 

I'll try to be less awesome in the future...  Don't want to fall over from a swollen head. ;-)

[AuthorityHellas16 he/him]

Also, general note, you tend to reply to our comments with a lot of explanation, which is great, but you also give explanation outside the story to back up what you're saying.  I'd challenge you to somehow bring that information into the story, which should then get rid of the source of our questions!

 

 

I know, I get a bit uncomfortable with the length of my posts sometimes! However, most of the time I give info that I accidentally left out of the submission. I wanted to gauge your reaction to the corrections when I add in the missing info. I also make a habit of adjusting the manuscript to reflect this, so it all makes sense. Hopefully when it's all said and done, the reader won't have any of these questions because I've corrected them (thanks to you! )

 

​I've really enjoyed the story so far. I think Robinski might be right that making Hellas more sympathetic might make the story even better though.

 

 

Thanks rohyu, I'm thrilled you like it . I'm working on making Hellas less whiny and more sympathetic, while maintaining his deeply flawed nature

 

I am still excited to see another large battle take place later in the book, presumably involving Hellas in some way.

 

 

Fear not, for there are plenty of huge battles to come

[Comatose he/him]

General Impressions:

 

I liked these chapters a lot!  You did a good job of establishing the differences between the modern era, and whenever the flashbacks are from.  I also really like the interaction with Scrios, both in the flashbacks, and at the end of the chapter.  I'm also enjoying seeing some of Hellas's flaws.  

 

One thing I worry about is all the different sorts of information we are getting here.  We are learning about what Heaven is like (necessary since this is the first chapter and Hellas is about to leave), and then also learning about this time before heaven, and then ALSO learning about the middle kingdoms a little bit.  I enjoyed it all, but it was a lot to take in.  A lot of the explanation is also occurring mostly in Hellas's head (he doesn't do a lot of interacting).  With this in mind, I'm glad you were able to start explaining the magic in the prologue, since it helped to spread things out a little.  

 

To play of an earlier suggestion about showing Hellas drunk, what would you think of starting with a 'Hellas is out on the town drinking' scene?  Show us his flaws, and maybe get some of the heaven explanation out of the way, so you don't need to cram it all in as he is leaving.  You could even slip some exposition in during his conversation with his drinking companions (or whoever the 'criminal element' is).  

The prison and trial scene were both well done in my opinion.  

 

For the forest scene, I'm a little confused about how Hellas's actions are helping to fight Lucifer.  At first I thought it was a more of a "disatisfaction with the system/ptsd' kind of rebellion, so this really came out of nowhere for me.  More explanation is needed.  I'm definitely curious about what Lucifer has been up to these last few years (maybe that's to come?).  

 

Now for the flashbacks generally:  I really liked them, but they also seemed out of place.  There was a lot of dissonance between the feel of the flashbacks and that of the chapters and the prologue.  I'm not sure how to fix this (especially since the Scrios introduction is pretty important), but if you could space them out a little, I think that would be good.  

 

 

Here's the line edit.  Most of these were probably flagged already, but here they are anyways.  Let me know if this isn't useful.  

 

Line Edit:

 

Page 2:

- "sapphire spider web" - While the imagery is nice, you already use jewel tones a lot when describing the eyes of the angels.  I think the effect you are going for is undermined when these words are over used.  You already describe the canals as "glistening" so maybe you could use a different 'blue' word instead of sapphire?  

 

Page 3: 

-"widehis" - need a space here.  

 

Page 4:

-"security was still incredibly tight around the Temple" - nice to see a response to the events in the prologue.  One thing to be changed is that you use "the Temple" twice in this sentence.  You could probably just end with "security was still incredibly tight".  

- "kneading at the deep marks where the tight handcuffs had buried into his skin" -  The cuffs came off?  I missed this.  

 

Page 12: "Such a stupid name for magic" - nice exposition here.  I was waiting for this.  

 

Page 16:

- "Scrios could emphasize with the boy" - slipping out of Hellas's POV again it seems.  

 

 

 

Great work!  Can't wait to see more!

[AuthorityHellas16 he/him]

Thanks for the critique Comatose!

 

One thing I worry about is all the different sorts of information we are getting here.  We are learning about what Heaven is like (necessary since this is the first chapter and Hellas is about to leave), and then also learning about this time before heaven, and then ALSO learning about the middle kingdoms a little bit.  I enjoyed it all, but it was a lot to take in.  A lot of the explanation is also occurring mostly in Hellas's head (he doesn't do a lot of interacting).  With this in mind, I'm glad you were able to start explaining the magic in the prologue, since it helped to spread things out a little.

 

 

I'm very conscious of how info-dumpy this can be. I've tried to spread it out as best I could, something that was helped by moving the repeat flashback to a later chapter and replacing it with a more recent flashback (see: above). Any other tips you reckon?

 

​To play of an earlier suggestion about showing Hellas drunk, what would you think of starting with a 'Hellas is out on the town drinking' scene?  Show us his flaws, and maybe get some of the heaven explanation out of the way, so you don't need to cram it all in as he is leaving.  You could even slip some exposition in during his conversation with his drinking companions (or whoever the 'criminal element' is).  

 

 

This is a good idea, as it follows the "show don't tell" rule. The only thing is that alcohol is very illegal in Heaven (it's quite a puritanical place, unsurprisingly.) For Hellas to be publicly intoxicated would be incredibly stupid.

What I have done, though, is changed the end of the prologue so that Hellas scrambles to drink to calm himself down, showing why he is dependent on the alcohol for his PTSD. I think that's fairly effective. What do you think?

 

For the forest scene, I'm a little confused about how Hellas's actions are helping to fight Lucifer.  At first I thought it was a more of a "disatisfaction with the system/ptsd' kind of rebellion, so this really came out of nowhere for me.  More explanation is needed.  I'm definitely curious about what Lucifer has been up to these last few years (maybe that's to come?).  

 

Happily, both of these issues have been corrected . Hellas claims to be trying to get the Council to be more aggressive against Lucifer, since their current attitude allows him plenty of time to search the Void and summon Abaddon back to the world. However, Scrios shuts that down - and Matthew alludes to it earlier - exposing Hellas' antics as an ineffectual, childish tantrum. Hellas gets better, though

 

Thanks for your feedback! Look forward to submitting more in the coming weeks

[rdpulfer he/him]

- The opening scene is confusing. Since the main character is falling, it seems like he's falling from grace, but apparently he's just returning from a mission of some kind? It feels more disjointed, and the connection between the plunge and the character's return doesn't quite work for me.

 

- I really like the setting. If this is supposed to be Heaven, it's certainly unlike any kind of Heaven we've seen before.

 

- Yay! Uriel! Okay, truth be told, I'm an angel nerd, and I get excited when anyone uses non-traditional angels apart from Michael, Gabriel and Raphael. 

 

- Hellas seems like a bit of a blank slate in the first chapter. Aside from the drugs and alcohol charges, we don't see much from him but resignation. I feel like if he is acting out more, he should be acting out to the other characters.

 

- I like that he calls out Wrathfire as a stupid name for magic.

 

- I do like the interplay between Hellas and Scrios. This does show a lot more of the characters' personalities. 

 

- I'm interested to see where this goes, but I am worried Hellas is falling into the trope of that hard-drinking hero whose lost someone dear to him. Still waiting to see how this plays out though. 

[AuthorityHellas16 he/him]

Thanks for the feedback rdpulfer. A lot of good points here. 

 

The opening scene is confusing. Since the main character is falling, it seems like he's falling from grace, but apparently he's just returning from a mission of some kind? It feels more disjointed, and the connection between the plunge and the character's return doesn't quite work for me.

 

 

I guess at this point the flashbacks to Hellas' past life are meant to be a little confusing, like pieces of a puzzle that only come together a lot later. If you're critiquing the actual use of the words "I fell," then that's easily rectified 

 

Yay! Uriel! Okay, truth be told, I'm an angel nerd, and I get excited when anyone uses non-traditional angels apart from Michael, Gabriel and Raphael.

 

 

Truth be told I wanted there to be more "archangels" than simply the big three (Michael + Gabriel + Raphael), as I thought that would give the story a bit more spice and variety. I'm glad you appreciate that

 

​Hellas seems like a bit of a blank slate in the first chapter. Aside from the drugs and alcohol charges, we don't see much from him but resignation. I feel like if he is acting out more, he should be acting out to the other characters.

 

 

This was slightly intentional, given the amount of world building I wanted to cram into this chapter. I thought that it would be more rewarding if details about Hellas' past and character were to be revealed gradually over the course of the novel. I have added a little bit of dialogue when Hellas is saying goodbye to his friends before he leaves ("show don't tell") that shows despite his disagreements with the Council he is completely devoted to protecting the city. 

 

​I'm interested to see where this goes, but I am worried Hellas is falling into the trope of that hard-drinking hero whose lost someone dear to him. Still waiting to see how this plays out though.

 

 

I guess I'm aiming for a variation on this trope. As you'll see, Hellas is mostly a reformed alcoholic (he spent a few months doing nothing but drinking), and only uses alcohol to calm himself down after a particularly vivid nightmare or during battle, where he can't allow himself to freak out. Otherwise he tends to avoid it, mainly because of his promise to Jessica. I'm also trying to focus more on his healing process and moving away from alcohol dependence than having his alcoholism become a permanent part of his character. 

 

Thanks for the feedback. Sorry for the late reply, it's been a crazy week: graduation, grad party and then the girlfriend had to head into hospital for a knee operation. 

[Shrike76 he/him]

P1: "...the Devourer: suck the will to live from those who oppose him." - I can't tell what this is. It seems like an oath, but I'd think it would be against those who support him? Or is this just supposed to describe the Devourer?

P2: The section with the giant billboards: Why do angels need propaganda at all? And if they're angels, why would Hellas resent it? I'd like more information here than just Hells dismissing it as blatant propaganda.

P3: "created in the likeness Elohim," - this sentence needs some help

P3: "spread widehis face" - needs a space

P5: I don't know if the repeat of a portion of the first flashback was intentional but I strongly dislike it.

P6: "covered in millions of esoteric, glowing symbols" - Does the narrator know what the symbols mean? If so then they're not esoteric and I'd like to know more about them, even if it's a very brief descriptor of their purpose.

P6: "away from abomination and and examined" - away from the abomination and examined...

P6: When Scrios gasped I was surprised, I'd originally thought by your description that everyone was dead.

P8: I feel cheated in the courtroom scene, not knowing exactly what Hellas did or why he did it. I found it very weak.

P11: "His glowing wings shone brighter, cracking and snapping" - This sounds like they're breaking apart

P12: Why is wraithfire a stupid name for magic?

P12: "Rather than reacting with nervousness, " - This is unnecessary and can be cut completely.

P14: Hellas knew about the tallest tree being Scrios' home, but he still needed a guide to find it?

P16: Third from last paragraph, a little too much tear rolling. One mention would be enough

 

A few suggestions:

I'm having a hard time visualizing this world. There are very high tech things, and then there are bales of hay in the jail that he was brought to in handcuffs made of pure energy. Clearer side descriptions about this world's technology, economy and social structure would be helpful. If you were building your own world, you could get away with less but unless you're handing this to a reader whose never heard of Heaven or Angels, they're going to have preconceived notions so you need to do a lot of work up front in the very early chapters to explicitly tell us how this world differs from everything else we think we already know.

You have, in a few places, hidden things from us which Hellas knows, while Hellas is the narrator, in order to reveal them later as a surprise. This feels weak, and I'd rather know those things up front because then there's more of an emotional impact. Like his drinking, it was mentioned in passing, but then it becomes important when Scrios says it but by then I don't care as much about it. Ditto his motivations for breaking the rules. He knows what they are and he has strong convictions, but we have no idea what it is. If you reveal it all later, it loses its punch.

 

Aside from that, you have the makings of a good story here. I'm interested in what's going to happen, as long as it's presented when it should be and not hidden from me in a weak attempt to create suspense. Hellas is interesting but he could be more so if we knew what he knows, the world is interesting (if a little weakly described so far), and the other characters and background are as well.

And I say "the makings of a good story" because right now you're falling a little short for my tastes. By the end of chapter 2, I still don't know what the story is. I know Hellas was punished, but he's been punished before and it didn't seem like a big deal. Certainly he doesn't seem to care, and so neither do I. If this is supposed to be a story of redemption, then I should know by now what it is he feels he needs to be redeemed for.

 

I feel that sounds like harsh criticism, but I don't want to pull my punches either. If it comes across as severe, it's because I really do think this is a story I want to like, and I want to help you get it there

[AuthorityHellas16 he/him]

Thanks for the feedback, Shrike. No need to worry about it being "harsh," because that's often the best criticism. I think a lot of things I've already improved, but I'll go through them with you and hopefully it'll improve your impression of my story

 

The section with the giant billboards: Why do angels need propaganda at all? And if they're angels, why would Hellas resent it? I'd like more information here than just Hells dismissing it as blatant propaganda.

 

The reason for the propaganda was that a lot of angels have defected to Lucifer's side over the course of the war, so the Inquisition encourages the people to police themselves, turning Heaven into a sort of Airstrip One-lite place. The idea was to make it a lot more unpleasant than the "Heaven" everyone thinks of.

 

​There are very high tech things, and then there are bales of hay in the jail that he was brought to in handcuffs made of pure energy.

That was very deliberate. I wanted there to be a strange combination of futuristic and archaic, given that the angels have access to magic that would make much of the technology we use as humans. 

 

I feel cheated in the courtroom scene, not knowing exactly what Hellas did or why he did it. I found it very weak.

I have changed this, so that the reason he's being punished is much more explicit. 

 

Clearer side descriptions about this world's technology, economy and social structure would be helpful. If you were building your own world, you could get away with less but unless you're handing this to a reader whose never heard of Heaven or Angels, they're going to have preconceived notions so you need to do a lot of work up front in the very early chapters to explicitly tell us how this world differs from everything else we think we already know.

You have, in a few places, hidden things from us which Hellas knows, while Hellas is the narrator, in order to reveal them later as a surprise. This feels weak, and I'd rather know those things up front because then there's more of an emotional impact.

Again, this was quite deliberate. I guess I'm much more of a fan of the slow-build, of revealing information piece-by-piece and having it all come together at a later date. I did have pages and pages of world-building in a previous draft, but it really slowed things down and started to resemble a crap version of that list of Greek generals and their troops in the Iliad (a.k.a REALLY boring). So I cut it and decided to sprinkle in details as they became relevant, while giving enough of an image of the setting to allow the story to continue. Was there a glaring example that particularly offended you? 

 

​Like his drinking, it was mentioned in passing, but then it becomes important when Scrios says it but by then I don't care as much about it. Ditto his motivations for breaking the rules. He knows what they are and he has strong convictions, but we have no idea what it is.

 

This is something that I have changed, but thanks for reinforcing it. I added a short section towards the end of the prologue that showed Hellas  drinking to recover from his flashback, which I believe shows the underlying reason for his needing to drink (and thus, his constant butting of heads with Heaven's government). I also had him actually talk to his Fireblades, where a little more information was given on his motivations and his dedication to keeping the city safe. 

 

Thanks again for the feedback. Hope you really enjoy the rest of it (and it improves for your tastes!)

[Shrike76 he/him]

Again, this was quite deliberate. I guess I'm much more of a fan of the slow-build, of revealing information piece-by-piece and having it all come together at a later date. I did have pages and pages of world-building in a previous draft, but it really slowed things down and started to resemble a crap version of that list of Greek generals and their troops in the Iliad (a.k.a REALLY boring). So I cut it and decided to sprinkle in details as they became relevant, while giving enough of an image of the setting to allow the story to continue. Was there a glaring example that particularly offended you? 

 

You definitely don't need pages and pages of worldbuilding, as that would definitely slow things down, and in general I find sprinkling in information is the way to go. I just suggest that the nature of this particular story, taking place in a location readers already think they know well, means you have to be a bit more liberal with the sprinkling early on. It's not that anything offended me, it's just that it's very different from the heaven I would have pictured, so every time you drop something high technology or cultural that I wouldn't expect in heaven (like courts and jails and bright propaganda billboards and farmers) then I have to revise what I think I know and it kicks me slightly out of the story. It'll probably happen less often as time goes on, I just think you can mitigate some of it by front-loading a few details about the world. Like, show us the general shape up front so we see it more closely resembles out world than heaven in many ways, and then the little details later are less jarring when they hit.

In cinematic or graphic novel terms, I think what I would have needed was an establishing shot. One or two detailed paragraphs, after we've met Hellas, giving me a big-picture look at Heaven that tells me in general what kind of place it is and who lives there. Once that's done all the little details become interesting rather than perplexing.