Composing the Great Catacendre

[Brightness Enna she/her]

I'm going to an infrequent workshop for composers, and at the end, a symphony will read and record a bunch of scores written by the workshop attendees.

 

I finally got some inspiration! The Great Catacendre, or more specifically, the Final Ascension, the one that happens in HoA. I have (for the first time) have started hearing my score in my head as I want it, though it changes quite frequently. The problem is, I don't know how to write for brass or most percussion or harp or woodwinds, besides flute. I also have limited skill when it comes to details and instrumentation. I'm really bad at that. 

 

You can hear the music HERE on Musescore. You can't really see all of the parts, and of course it is incomplete, but you download the file for midi or Musescore and see the whole thing. It should also be a bit slower than it's played on the website, more 100-110 bpm rather than 120. 

 

So please help! Feedback, suggestions, and advice, is very, very welcome. 

 

Edit: that link goes to the new version of the song rather than the old one, though there's not a lot of difference, really...

Edited January 17, 2016 by Enna

[Ookla the Absent]

 First of all, I really do like it, though it's obviously not done.

Don't take any of this personally, I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to get a feel for some of your decisions.

General

What's your music theory knowledge level? Are we talking general knowledge of chords, some formal training, taken a class, PhD in music composition..?

How do you go about recording your ideas? Do you write them down on a piece of paper, wait until you can get onto musescore, sing it into a pocket recorder?

Do you know what chords are used in each of the measures, whether or not all of the notes are voiced out?

How long does this get to be?

RE: Brass

First of all, why C Trumpet? That's very weird. Also, said trumpet doesn't play... I assume that's 'cause it's incomplete?

Rangewise, the brass looks pretty good. Not entirely sure what sort of help you're looking for..?

I mean, it's not a challenging piece in any of the parts, but it doesn't have to be for it to sound good if the musicians care at all about tone.

RE: Woodwind

Why E^b clarinet? Are these instruments, like, what you're given to work with or something? Not trying to be harsh, but... most people play trumpet and clarinet in B^b.

Also,  it might be a good idea to give the clarinet something to do other than double the flute. Unison lines are fine, but there also ought to be some variety. Try doing some counter-melody idea or something?

RE: Piano and Harp

Sounds pretty good to me, esp. the harp, but I have no experience with that particular instrument.

RE: Strings

Uh, sure? No help there.

[Brightness Enna she/her]

 First of all, I really do like it, though it's obviously not done.

Don't take any of this personally, I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to get a feel for some of your decisions.

 

I welcome critique! It helps and I don't feel like it's attacking me at all.

 

General

I know a lot of general theory, though I don't really incorporate chords very much into my work. I have three notes (usually a random chord I like the sound of, not anything specific) that I space out over the voices. I've taken a few entry-level courses and a lot of private training when I took violin, viola, and piano lessons over the course of twelve years.

 

I get my ideas by fiddling around with a piano and writing it down, more or less, on manuscript paper or putting random notes into Musescore and seeing how it sounds. For this piece, I heard parts of it in my head and sounded it out on the piano, writing down the notes and expanding it on the computer.

 

I don't know what chords are being used. I do know that most of the piece has focused around the chords D-A-G and C-E-A, and plan to continue that for most of it.

 

I plan on limiting it to about five minutes for the reading, though if I have more ideas I might put them in there later and make it longer.

 

Everything else

I have no idea why C trumpet. I told you I have no idea how to write for brass. Same with Eb clarinet. I'll switch those to Bb then, thank you. And yes, the brass section looks a little sparse right now (esp trumpet) because it is unfinished.

 

Actually, I had the idea of assigning different instruments to different "parts", though once I got into it, I realized that would work only to an extent. The clarinet and flute were supposed to represent Sazed. I do agree, however, that I should probably single out the clarinet a little more. I'll do that. A counter-melody sounds like a really good idea, especially in those parts where it's just one melody plus chording.

 

I have a friend who plays the harp, so I'll ask her to look the part over when it's done. I've never written for the harp before, though, and so I'm glad it's turning out the way it is.

 

Thank you very much for your help! I'll change those few things when I've got time (finals week is upon us!) and update it soon.

[Fanderson he/him]

Brilliant idea! I really need to push myself and compose some stuff for these books. Good to see someone doing it 

Brass and Woodwinds:

Anyway, Ookla had some good suggestions as far as the brass and woodwinds went.

I'll just point out that B^b trumpet might be norm for a lot of stuff but for orchestral a C trumpet is also often used. Many trumpet players can play and/or own multiple trumpets (C, B^b) and it can be said that C trumpet has a more penetrating sound. Myself, I've done B^b, but I like composing everything as a C score and transposing later. It helps my brain.   
If you want, I was looking at Samuel Adler's orchestration book a while ago and pasted together all his register tone qualities for woodwinds and brass:

(Posted here: http://music.stackexchange.com/questions/10540/instrument-register-tone-and-quality-chart/10561#10561 )

Keep in mind this chart is Adler's opinions and not everyone will agree on all parts of it. However, as a mostly non woodwind and brass player I find this kind of thing very useful.

Strings:...

Seeing as you are a string player, it doesn't sound as if you need as much in this area. I'm a string player myself (primarily viola), but all I'll say is I can easily see some articulations for the cello and bass on their quarter notes. 

Percussion:

Ok, this is looking pretty good but I'm not sure it's entirely possible... I have never really actually played percussion before, only written for, but I think you're going to need to be very careful with your timpani here. It looks like it's playing a G,A,B, and C here. Keep in mind, most orchestras use one set of timpani which consists of only 4 drums, at least in a normal set. It can be extended to 5, but that's more a range thing for composers. If you use too much timpani you might need a second drum set.

Anyway, here's a chart of the general timpani drum ranges (each drum is a different size).

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timpani

Taking a quick look at that and the notes you have going, I'd say this isn't feasible or at least easy to play. I've seen timpanists who can play whole melodies on a single drum by tuning as they pound, but it's best practice to give the timpanist time to retune the drum.

Anyway I know this piece is incomplete   As it is, it's a good start and has great potential.

 

Details and Instrumentation:

I'm not sure exactly what you are missing in these areas, but I'll just mention a little about your layout:

Generally in orchestral scores, the Strings come last after all the percussion, the horns are the first of the brass section, and the harp is after the percussion (above the other strings). Of course this only really matters at the printing of a score, and some parts have a little jiggle room. For me, I found it very enlightening just to read the scores of composers I admire, anywhere from Beethoveen to Stravinsky to John Williams. It really helps in so many ways, not simply in layout, just to read any scores you can come across.

 

Hope I helped some. Great work!
 

[Ookla the Absent]

Anyway, Ookla had some good suggestions as far as the brass and woodwinds went.

I'll just point out that B^b trumpet might be norm for a lot of stuff but for orchestral a C trumpet is also often used. Many trumpet players can play and/or own multiple trumpets (C, B^b) and it can be said that C trumpet has a more penetrating sound. Myself, I've done B^b, but I like composing everything as a C score and transposing later. It helps my brain.

I agree B^b is by no means the only type, but all trumpet players have a B^b trumpet, not all have a C. It's just going to be a little bit easier on people. Believe me, I play most brass, I hate having to sight-transpose to different instruments, and I certainly don't have a C. If I did, I could play it, but I'd have to practice a lot to get the pitches to match up in my head.

I agree, it's easier to write everything out in C first, but...

[Brightness Enna she/her]

Brilliant idea! I really need to push myself and compose some stuff for these books. Good to see someone doing it 

 

Hope I helped some. Great work!

 

 

Thanks for that information! Those range charts, especially, will be very helpful. 

 

I agree on the bass and cello - what I've got there is a little boring to play. (also - viola! Yay!) I'll see if I can find some way to make it more interesting, maybe changing the notes or rhythm a bit. I do want it to mostly be what it is though, so not a lot of change is coming to that. Maybe occasional accents where it makes sense.

 

I have no idea how timpani works, so... I'll work on making that easier to play. How would you propose I do that? Should I increase interval size?

 

And regarding layout, I just thought it would be easiest to write it the way it makes sense for me and rearrange the instruments later, which is really easy in Musescore, if you haven't used it. The last day in the workshop is going to be printing and binding, so I'll hopefully get all that info there. 

 

Thank you very much! I have no experience actually writing pieces to be played. Usually I make them fun to listen to and completely impossible. Your help is very much appreciated.

[Ookla the Absent]

RE: Timps

Just realize that, although they can be tuned, you're still basically limited to 4 notes per song, 'cause you get 4 drums and one note per drum per song. So, the notes themselves don't matter all that much, but pick which four you want most.

Look up a few videos of timpani solos. I'll see if I can find you a few.

Timps are really fun to play, but getting a good tone takes work, as does getting them in tune and keeping them that way.

[Elbereth she/her]

I welcome critique! It helps and I don't feel like it's attacking me at all.

I have a friend who plays the harp, so I'll ask her to look the part over when it's done. I've never written for the harp before, though, and so I'm glad it's turning out the way it is.

I am a harpist, and I'd be glad to look it over. Unfortunately, I can't right now. I can't see it on the score where you linked, nor when I download it as a pdf. It's just off of the page.

[Fanderson he/him]

I am a harpist, and I'd be glad to look it over. Unfortunately, I can't right now. I can't see it on the score where you linked, nor when I download it as a pdf. It's just off of the page.

You can download it as a musescore or musicxml file then it can be viewed. Musescore 2 is pretty good and free

 

I have no idea how timpani works, so... I'll work on making that easier to play. How would you propose I do that? Should I increase interval size?

 

And regarding layout, I just thought it would be easiest to write it the way it makes sense for me and rearrange the instruments later, which is really easy in Musescore, if you haven't used it. The last day in the workshop is going to be printing and binding, so I'll hopefully get all that info there. 

Again Ookla has great points about the timp now. Picking four notes is a good way to make sure it's playable. I often choose simply the base, maybe a 4th and/or a 5th, etc... Having a run won't be optimal.

Then again, you don't have to stick with the same four notes for the whole song. Tuning can be done in between hits. However, might be best to just stick with the simple at first.

[Elbereth she/her]

I have indeed done so now. Given that it's almost midnight, I can't go and play my harp right now for fear of waking people up, but I will do so in the morning.

For now, here are my comments. First, do remember that you can have the harpist duplicate what they're playing in both hands. I'm not necessarily recommending it, but it exists, and it's helpful since harps are naturally quieter than most other instruments, so it's hard to hear them in an orchestra.This comment particularly applies to measure 11 onward.

Also, measure ten. While I haven't played this yet, so I don't know as such, just from looking at it it's not going to be easy to get to that chord in time. Probably possible, but given that the piano isn't doing anything in that measure, it would be easier for the harpist if you put one half of that measure into the piano part. If you feel both would do better as a harp part, that's your choice as the composer, and the harpist will just learn to live with it.

Speaking of the piano, a lot of the things it seems to be doing are very harpy. I don't really know what to say about that, but they are.

The other cool thing a harp can do is glissandos, which are great for effect. I don't know if you'll want to put one in, but if you do ask me (or your harp friend, providing she plays pedal harp) about glissandos in a certain key, because some glissandos sound better than others, depending on your pedals.

I hope that was helpful!

[Ookla the Absent]

Then again, you don't have to stick with the same four notes for the whole song. Tuning can be done in between hits. However, might be best to just stick with the simple at first.

I was considering mentioning that, but didn't want her getting ideas...

Definitely possible, but it's best to give them a bit of time to do so, so no changing every measure... Give 'em a few measures rest if you do want to change, and hope they aren't tone deaf.

I've had a few players like that... they join percussion to escape playing notes, then they have to do xylo and timp... not fun...

[Kaymyth she/her]

Disclaimer:  I am a music nerd.  I took a great deal of classwork in the field when I was shooting towards a music performance degree.  I wound up getting my B.A. in elementary education, but the musical knowledge has stuck with me. 

 

 

Some general notes on orchestration (I only just discovered this thread, and my husband is currently playing a noisy video game, so I haven't actually listened to the thing yet):

 

Eb clarinet is usually either a sopranino clarinet or an alto clarinet.  Contrabass clarinet is also in Eb, but it's huuuuuge.  Bb applies to the standard (soprano) and bass clarinets.  You also have a lot of oddball-keyed clarinets; the most commonly used is A, which is similar to the standard Bb in pitch and timre.  Its existence is mostly due to the classical age writing music for orchestras that had a lot of sharps.  Natural key signatures of sharps combined with instruments pitched to the flat side of things makes for horrendously evil key signatures and double sharps and nigh-Lovecraftian musical notation.

 

Same sort of deal with the C trumpet; it's just easier to handle a high-sharps key signature. 

 

Basically, when you have an instrument that's pitched with flats "built into it", you have to add extra sharps to the instrument's music in order to balance them out.  So if you have a Bb trumpet, that's an instrument with two flats built into it.  If the concert-pitched instruments (that's the C instruments to the laymen) are playing in the key of C, no sharps or flats, then the transposed parts for the trumpet will be in the key of D.  That's two sharps to cancel out the two flats built into the instrument.  On the flip side, an A clarinet will have three sharps built into it, so a piece in the key of C would have to be transposed into Eb for it to balance out correctly.

 

Why are instruments pitched this way at all?  It comes down to playability.  By pitching the different instruments, you get a standardization of fingerings within the different families.  Saxophones flip back and forth between Bb and Eb, but on all different types of sax (sopranino, soprano, alto, tenor, baritone, bass) the fingerings for different notes are exactly the same.  Oh, and play a G on a saxophone?  It's pretty much identical to how you finger one on a flute, in spite of the fact that the instruments look wildly different.  This standardization makes it very, very easy to learn to play new instruments in the same family.

 

I'm not familiar with Musescore; I use Finale for my writing.  It's a nice program.  You can have the score switch back and forth between concert pitch and natural pitch.  It's a heck of a lot easier to enter parts when you don't have to try and transpose them in your head.

 

Changing the pitch of a timpani mid-performance is doable, but it depends heavily on the level of the orchestra.  It's not something I'd expect a high school player to be able to do, but a good college player could probably do it, and a professional orchestra member expects this sort of thing as a matter of course.

[Brightness Enna she/her]

It's been a month... and I got just a little bit done. The link in the topic post is the new one. (Unless you don't want to go all the way there, in which case: LINK)

 

Changes I made:

• Timpani now only has four notes that I plan on using the whole time
• There is now Eb clarinet and Bb trumpet... those were the right ones, right?
• More filling in and supplementing the melody and chords in the brass
• Now you can see all the parts

Changes I need to make:

• Longer (I plan on four parts, which I've got all planned out with vague ideas of what it will sound like)
• I feel like I need a motif. What would be the best little bit out of the parts I've got to do that?
• Does it move too fast? As in, from one melody to another?
• Are there too many parts? Am I being too ambitious with the instrumentation? I know that I've got most, if not all, of those to work with, but usually I write for smaller ensembles, so I'm having a bit of a difficult time figuring that all out. 

The next workshop is at the beginning of February, and hopefully there we'll get more information on what instruments we can use and the skill level of the orchestra. I have the hardest time transitioning and keeping it sound unified. Do you have any ideas on how I can do that with this particular piece?

 

PDF but WAV audio was too big

The_Great_Catacendre (2) PDF.pdf