Theory: Gavilar's Still Alive

[Moogle]

* Sadeas would know that Gavilar is alive. With Gavilar alive and Dalinar becoming more like him, I double he would have tried to get him killed at the tower.

 

Sadeas wasn't with Gavilar when he spoke with Jasnah. Only his bodyguard and Amaram.

 

 

* Why would Gavilar's bodyguard have the sphere? Why would he give it to Szeth, when keeping it hidden would have meant Gavilar would take it back?

* Why would Gavilar's bodyguard want Dalinar to find the words?

 

No clue.

 

 

* Gavilar would have had to be one of the 2 guards escaping with Sadeas.

 

Or invisible, or was never actually in his rooms. I'd be surprised if Lightweaving couldn't manage a bit of invisibility.

 

 

* Why would Shallash put illusions on people? She's busy with her own things.

 

She was in Kholinar recently. She was speaking with the other Heralds, apparently, who were doing something that was 'wrong'. They've clearly got some plans of their own.

 

 

* Why would Gavilar's bodyguard hesitate when he saw Jasnah?

 

Why wouldn't he hesitate if he heard the princess shouting at him?

 

 

Regarding the timeline, even though Jasnah's adventure and the conversation with Liss probably didn't take that long, don't discount how long it would have taken Jasnah to move around the palace. Remember, that palace has been around since Nohadon's time; it's probably HUGE. And wherever she met with Liss wouldn't have been super-close to the main part, since it was basically deserted. Shaken up as she was after her episode, it probably took her a good 15 minutes to walk there and compose herself. 

 

 

Jasnah managed to make it to Gavilar's rooms, going up two flights of stairs, before anyone else managed to get there. I feel pretty confident the palace isn't that big. The composure time may have been lengthier than I thought, but Jasnah isn't Shallan. She'd probably figure herself out faster.

 

 

 

 

Two other points. One, whoever it was that died, had Gavilar's Blade. Now, it's possible that Gavilar had secretly given it to Tearim, but that would have been a major, major thing for him to do. If he did it right on the spot, it would have been stupid, since he's then without any protection against the coming Shardbearer. If he did it before, it would have been viewed as a huge scandal. Also, for Tearim to be one of the worlds best duelists, he may well have had his own Blade anyway.

 

Last point - At the start of their fight, Szeth knocks "Gavilar" down and runs after the escaping party. He noticed that "Gavilar" seems oddly slow to get up, realizes the "king" is a decoy, and doubles back, at which point Gavilar really starts to fight. If "Gavilar" was really Tearim, he wouldn't have acted light that, he'd have kept fighting for real the entire time.

 

 

First point: How do you know it was Gavilar's Blade? It was never remarked on who ended up with it. Gavilar also gave Tearim his Plate, why wouldn't he give him his Blade too?

 

Last point: Why? If he's acting like the king, he should try to avoid getting killed, just like the real king would. He gave Sadeas a good head start.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Moogle

[wra7h]

I thinkg that my first time posting, and since I haven't been around for a while, so I might have missed some thing. BUT

Words echoed in the hallway, coming from up ahead. “I’m worried about Ash.”

“You’re worried about everything.”

Jasnah hesitated in the hallway.

“She’s getting worse,” the voice continued. “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.”

“Shut up.”

“I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—”

 

Isn't it possible they refer to Szeth, who by some reason has the lord's blade. We really don't know much about his blade, do we? And the wrong thing they did, was to arrange the whole assassination in attempt to prevent Gavilar messing up with the dangerous thing he was about to do.

 

Also the black light from the sphere he gave Szeth - what happens if that light is inhaled by a parshendi surgebinder? Turn him/her into a voidbringer perhaps?

[Colby Jack he/him]

 

I give this theory 0.1% chance of being true

 

Indeed, but on the slight chance that this theory is right, then Dalinar has to explain to his brother why he's fooling around with his wife... although if Sadeas was in on it too, then this might further explain why he betrayed Dalinar in the Tower.

[Aether he/him]

Indeed, but on the slight chance that this theory is right, then Dalinar has to explain to his brother why he's fooling around with his wife... although if Sadeas was in on it too, then this might further explain why he betrayed Dalinar in the Tower.

If it is true, then I think there is a way for even Sadeas to have been ignorant of it. Gavilar and Tearim was alone when Jasnah left them, and the latter was the one wearing the Shardplate. It is possible that Gavilar went somewhere else, and that Tearim returned to Gavilar's room claiming to be the king. Or maybe just he and Tearim went into the room, with Gavilar claiming that he would put on Tearim's armour.

 

Point is, if we allow for the possibility of Gavilar's survival, then I think we can allow for the possibility that Sadeas was not in on it.

[Chlehrma]

Didn't Jasnah acknowledge that the man in the shard plate was her father?

[Moogle]

Didn't Jasnah acknowledge that the man in the shard plate was her father?

 

Looks like her father, yes. Sounds like him? 'Gavilar' never speaks in Jasnah's hearing, so we don't know. He hesitates when she yells at him, but never says anything. This is a little suspicious, though not terribly so.

 

This theory hinges on the fact that the Illumination Surge can be used to make illusions, sort of like how it works in Elantris. Shalash, who recently passed through Kholinar, could have accomplished it. As well, Elhokar ended up with Lightweaver spren, and there were Heralds talking with him, so there's a lot of potential ways that there could have been a use of the Surge.

 

Tearim himself could have ended up attracting a Lightweaver spren. Tons of people near Gavilar became Surgebinders.

 

Oh, and of course, Shalash's Honorblade might have ended up with Gavilar, though I find the idea close to ridiculous. He's a candidate for having "my lord's own Blade", though.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Aether he/him]

I am not entirely convinced that the plan even would have to rely upon the Illumination surge. It could be done with ordinary "slight of hand" type stuff.

[ninch he/him]

He seemed dazed. “Tell…tell my brother…he must find the most important words a man can say….”

That could also be the "death quote" thing happening.

[Moogle]

An interesting thought, but I'm not sure it's a death quote. People speaking death quotes speak them with improved clarity. The pauses don't make much sense in that light.

[Macen he/him]

Two other points. One, whoever it was that died, had Gavilar's Blade. Now, it's possible that Gavilar had secretly given it to Tearim, but that would have been a major, major thing for him to do. If he did it right on the spot, it would have been stupid, since he's then without any protection against the coming Shardbearer. If he did it before, it would have been viewed as a huge scandal. Also, for Tearim to be one of the worlds best duelists, he may well have had his own Blade anyway.

I can't find the quote from the book right now, but it is stated in WoK that it is not uncommon for a High Prince to have a 'Champion' who carries his houses Shardplate and Shardblade. I extremely doubt there would be a big scandal if he gave the leader of his Body Guard (who is known as the worlds best duelist) his Plate and Blade. Espeically considering his new found 

distaine for war. There may have been some gossip, but no more.

Last point - At the start of their fight, Szeth knocks "Gavilar" down and runs after the escaping party. He noticed that "Gavilar" seems oddly slow to get up, realizes the "king" is a decoy, and doubles back, at which point Gavilar really starts to fight. If "Gavilar" was really Tearim, he wouldn't have acted light that, he'd have kept fighting for real the entire time.

He would only keep fighting for real if Gavilar was with the "fake king". If Gavilar had snuck out a back way, or any other number of things. Why would Tearim attempt to keep him there? I could see it as a two tiered ruse. Send Sadeas off as a fake king, then have Tearim disguised as Gavilar inside the Plate, so that if the assassin figures out the first ruse, he will be more likely to fall for the second.

As far as the sphere goes, perhaps Gavilar figured that Taerim would not lose, so he entrusted his most valuable possession in what he thought was the safest hands.

Lastly, from what the dying 'Gavilar' said, he was expecting an assassination attempt for quite some times. Perhaps they had planned out what Tearim would say, if he happened to die. And he gave the sphere away on a gut decision.

This is all speculation, but there are too many missing facts and loopholes for us to count the theory out. The most probable scenario is that Gavilar was in his shardplate and is now dead. BUT, one sentence in a reading of the new book has already made me question numerous 'facts' from the first book.

 

I'm guessing by the end of WoR half the things we knew as facts in WoK will turn out to be incorrect.

P.S. I didn't really proof this, so if something doesn't make sense - I apologize.

[Daishi5]

Looking at TWoK, it seems pretty clear that Gavilar died.  The new information does make it look like the king might have survived somehow, but if he survived there are a lot of really big questions that would need to be answered.

 

The main witness to the king's death in TWoK was Szeth, who didn't even know what the king looked like.  If Jasnah hadn't been above them and seen the man in the king's plate die, I would be betting money on Gavilar being alive.  However, with Jasnah as a first hand witness, I have a hard time believing that Gavilar is alive.  

[Meg]

I apologize, I can't go with this idea as well as for not quoting, but it's a bit broken and so I dare answer without quotes.

-- That Tearim isn't mentioned in TWoK might be because he's still in Kholinar (as somebody already said) or because he died in that night (after giving Dalinar's Shardplate and Shardblade back to Gavilar).

-- Somebody mentioned that "Gavilar was described as a great duelist, too" (paraphrased). Skimming through TWoK I don't find any evidence for this. He surely was a great warrior (he got a broken nose and a bad scar on his chin during fighting (this is from TWoK, too)). While Dalinar, the Blackthorn, was the most renown warrior of this time, he himself thought his brother was "the only worthy opponent he could see" (TWoK Ch. 5). So even if Gavilar was the man for tactics, he knew how to fight, too.

What is my point: Not being a fighter myself I'm sure a duelist has other qualities than a practiced warrior. The one doesn't exclude the other as we see when Adolin is fighting, but being a good duelist isn't necessary the same as being a good warrior.

Then there is Szeth's observation during the first part of his fight with Gavilar: "The man was dangerously skilled with that Blade." (TWoK Prologue). Even if Tearim was a very good duelist, he wore the Plate and the Blade only for a short time and I'm inclined to think that he wouldn't be that good with the Shards yet.

 

--

The main witness to the king's death in TWoK was Szeth, who didn't even know what the king looked like.  If Jasnah hadn't been above them and seen the man in the king's plate die, I would be betting money on Gavilar being alive.  However, with Jasnah as a first hand witness, I have a hard time believing that Gavilar is alive.

How should Szeth know who to kill if he wasn't told and shown Gavilar before? Szeth knew Gavilar, he saw him at the feast. And he was sure, he fought Gavilar ("Szeth knelt down, inspecting the man’s pain-wracked face. Strong features, square chin, black beard flecked with white, striking pale green eyes. Gavilar Kholin." (TWoK Prologue)).

I know, the illusion ... My question about this is: Would an illusion stay when the subject dies? We don't know this yet.

So in my estimation Gavilar was murdered by Szeth this very night.

[RadiantNights]

Also a small point...

When szeth was fighting the king of jah keved and those 2 Shardbearers he mentions that his surges don't have any affect on a person in plate. If szeths surges don't work on men in shard plate then I wonder if that means no surges would work on them and that would mean no illusion surge

[Moogle]

Also a small point...

When szeth was fighting the king of jah keved and those 2 Shardbearers he mentions that his surges don't have any affect on a person in plate. If szeths surges don't work on men in shard plate then I wonder if that means no surges would work on them and that would mean no illusion surge

 

Radiants were more than capable of using Lashings on things in Plate (themselves). Szeth, I think, is special because his powers are from a non-standard source. I'm waiting for Kaladin to try Lashing something before I think what Szeth thinks is a universal law.

 

And of course, it's more or less likely that Szeth could still Lash a Shardbearer if they were wearing no helmet and he touched their head directly. I think it's the body contact that matters, not whether or not they're wearing Plate. The Plate is just so full of Investiture that it blocks anything from going through it. Radiants may have been able to temporarily phase out parts of their armor and touch things with their bare skin.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Moogle

[Aether he/him]

I recently saw a WoB were he more or less directly said that Szeth cannot affect Plate because his use of Investiture is foreign to that of a Shardplate. A true Surgebinder would be able to wear it without having it interfere with his own lashings, and it is possible that he could use his powers on other Radiants as well.

[Mysty she/her]

A lot of this theory hinges on the idea that Gavilar didn't have enough time to change into his shardplate. In rereading tWoK prologue I noticed this line

Szeth stood and began to pick his way through the room. The revelry had lasted long; even the king had retired hours ago.

If Gavilar had left the room "hours ago" why was he so time crunched? Unless he spent hours in the hallway talking to Amaram (where anyone could walk by and become suspicious or overhear) he had plenty of time to get to his room and for Tearim to get out of the armor before Szeth even left the feast. Jasnah's trail of events must have taken longer than we expected.

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

What if Gavilar discovered the way of summoning Shardplate that Dalinar witnessed in the Starfalls vision? That would let him change very quickly. 

[Moogle]

If Gavilar had left the room "hours ago" why was he so time crunched? Unless he spent hours in the hallway talking to Amaram (where anyone could walk by and become suspicious or overhear) he had plenty of time to get to his room and for Tearim to get out of the armor before Szeth even left the feast. Jasnah's trail of events must have taken longer than we expected.

 

Something about the timelines is fishy indeed. Jasnah sees Szeth helping the Parshendi set up things, and Jasnah sees Dalinar calling for drums and wine. Jasnah sees her father right after. What's more, he goes back to the feast after.

 

Just before Szeth starts his assassination hours after the king has retired, Dalinar is slumped over from drinking too much.

 

So basically, we're looking at Jasnah apparently having spent hours walking about the palace and traveling into Shadesmar. Which is ridiculous. Since Gavilar went back to the feast for an unspecified amount of time while Jasnah went on her adventure, we're looking at Jasnah taking 3+ hours.

 

Something's up. It erodes support for the theory (which relies on Gavilar not having had time to change), but I really need to know what took Jasnah as long as she did. If her trip to Shadesmar took an hour or two, I can't see Liss staying around that long. A simple "you're late" does not quite convey the sheer lateness of being 2+ hours behind schedule.

 

I'll spend some time making an actual timeline when I can because I want to get to the bottom of this.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Moogle

[Chlehrma]

Something about the timelines is fishy indeed. Jasnah sees Szeth helping the Parshendi set up things, and Jasnah sees Dalinar calling for drums and wine. Jasnah sees her father right after. What's more, he goes back to the feast after.

Just before Szeth starts his assassination hours after the king has retired, Dalinar is slumped over from drinking too much.

So basically, we're looking at Jasnah apparently having spent hours walking about the palace and traveling into Shadesmar. Which is ridiculous. Since Gavilar went back to the feast for an unspecified amount of time while Jasnah went on her adventure, we're looking at Jasnah taking 3+ hours.

Something's up. It erodes support for the theory (which relies on Gavilar not having had time to change), but I really need to know what took Jasnah as long as she did. If her trip to Shadesmar took an hour or two, I can't see Liss staying around that long. A simple "you're late" does not quite convey the sheer lateness of being 2+ hours behind schedule.

I'll spend some time making an actual timeline when I can because I want to get to the bottom of this.

Since Jasnah did not go back to the feast, her assumption that her father had done so is flawed. She made an assumption without supporting evidence...like actually seeing him at the feast. He walked back into the feast hall, but may have just passed through. Additionally, there is no knowing exactly how long Jasnah was actually in Shadesmar. Edited January 28, 2014 by Chlehrma

[Moogle]

Since Jasnah did not go back to the feast, her assumption that her father had done so is flawed. She made an assumption without supporting evidence...like actually seeing him at the feast. He walked back into the feast hall, but may have just passed through. Additionally, there is no knowing exactly how long Jasnah was actually in Shadesmar.

 

Gavilar actually says that he's returning to the feast to Jasnah. I've posted about timelines in other threads, and the fact that Jasnah was able to run up two floors to Gavilar's room's when Szeth attacked and got there before anyone else means she couldn't have spent more than 10 minutes or so walking down to meet Liss. We know Gavilar returned to the feast (or claimed he was going to, but I see no reason to disbelieve him), and we know Szeth said that Gavilar retired hours before. There is no getting around the fact that what was a half hour for Jasnah was close to 3 hours for everyone else.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

I didn't read all comments, so it might have already been said, but the theory suggests illusions stay after death or at least for a really long time. Many people had seen Gavilar's body including his own family, it's not like Gavilar's body was buried in the ground five minutes after his assassination.  And for the sake of the theory Gavilar has to be a really advanced Lightweaver. Perhaps being a surgebinder got him interested in a book about KR, but how did he learn so much? Can a surge even last for that long? When Kaladin binds something to a wall it fells fairly quickly. And why would Gavilar hide? After he knows what Szeth can do he can be better prepared (taking spheres away, ect) and have Dalinar at his side. I doubt even Szeth could beat both of them.  

[Moogle]

After he knows what Szeth can do he can be better prepared (taking spheres away, ect) and have Dalinar at his side. I doubt even Szeth could beat both of them.  

 

Dalinar, at this point, was drunk and falling over. And Jasnah was one of the first Surgebinders - it's possible Gavilar was the very first, and thought there were no others (so he didn't bother getting rid of all the Stormlight). It's also possible that it was Shalash (Ash) doing the Lightweaving. I say 'possible' but I mean 'very unlikely'.

 

As for the duration of Surges, Elantrian illusions last damnation near forever, as far as I recall. Shallan's doesn't last very long in the WoR chapter, but she also sort of explicitly canceled it.

[Aleksiel]

Dalinar, at this point, was drunk and falling over. And Jasnah was one of the first Surgebinders - it's possible Gavilar was the very first, and thought there were no others (so he didn't bother getting rid of all the Stormlight). It's also possible that it was Shalash (Ash) doing the Lightweaving. I say 'possible' but I mean 'very unlikely'.

 

As for the duration of Surges, Elantrian illusions last damnation near forever, as far as I recall. Shallan's doesn't last very long in the WoR chapter, but she also sort of explicitly canceled it.

 

I know he was drunk then. My point was if Gavilar was alive, he would have been better prepared rather than hide and Dalinar would have been by his side. It's not like he was unreliable and constantly drunk.

[Chlehrma]

Galivar is dead. If you read the chapter from WoR where Dalinar is acting as an observer, then you will notice the info on bonded shard blades. The person it is bound to can summon it away from the person it has been lent to for use. When Galivar died his shard blade coalesced and dropped to the ground. I.e. He was the bond holder and died.

There are, however, curiousities. What happened to his plate and blade? I seem to recall Dalinar giving elhokar a set he won on the plains or ,was that just an extra set?

[Aleksiel]

There are, however, curiousities. What happened to his plate and blade? I seem to recall Dalinar giving elhokar a set he won on the plains or ,was that just an extra set?

 

Dalinar gave the set he won to Adolin. I think Elhokar's set was Gavilar's.

 

Edit: typo

Edited January 28, 2014 by Aleksiel