Very Crazy Idea: Is Szeth a(n upcoming) Voidbinder?

[Meg]

Just spinning an idea. How did I come up with it?

I found this quote:

 

Does SzethsonsonVallano's Surgebinding require HonorSpren like Kaladin's?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it does not. (Hm....) Gold star to you.

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I see that the question was about “Surgebinding”, but for me the answer is of more interest: Szeth does not need a(n Honor)spren to get access to his powers (though he, too, needs Stormlight).

Then I ran over this (not for the first time, but with the above quote fresh in mind …):

Szeth mentions that Lashings don't work with shardplate (on?). Is there any way to get around this (As in, lashing with shardplate on, or lashing people with shardplate on), and, if so, does it have anything to do with the Knights Radiant and/or their ideals?

Brandon Sanderson

This has to do with the nature of the magics in the cosmere. They interfere with one another. Something that contains a lot of power--we call it investiture--resists the efforts of magic to influence it. A strong spirit can interfere as well.

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And we know that Szeth's way is different from Kaladin's:

Do Szeth and Kaladin both belong to the same order of knights radiant?

Brandon Sanderson (Goodreads)

Szeth isn't actually in an order of Knights Radiant. Something different is happening with Szeth that people have already begun to guess. And Kaladin isn't yet a Knight Radiant, but the powers he uses are those of the Windrunners, one of the orders of the Knights Radiant. Szeth is using the same power set. So your phrasing is accurate to that extent.

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So I got the idea that Szeth's lashings don't work on Shardplates because Shardplates might be Invested with/by another 'Investiture' than Szeth's lashings derive from. I take as a premise that neither the Knights Radiant nor the average Shardbearer from 'modern Roshar' were/are Voidbinders, I think that – in opposite – Szeth is Voidbinding and so his type of 'using Investiture' interferes with Surgebinding (i. e. the type of (possible, but at the moment not yet known) 'using Investiture' that for example Kaladin does).

Or, probably, if the Ten Fools would use Voidbinding, perhaps Szeth is on his way to become a follower of the Ten Fools (i. e. Knights Radiants 'are' followers of the Heralds, so the Ten Fools might have (had) followers, too).

The number 10 seems to be a recurring theme in this world. Are the Ten Fools the antithesis of the ten orders of the Knights Radiant?

(...)

Brandon Sanderson

First Question: Yes, ten is a number of mythological import in the world. The Ten Fools are, essentially, the opposites of the Ten Heralds—who each represented an ideal. (Those ideals were later adopted by the orders of Knights Radiant, so yes, there is a connection—but there's a step between them.)

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What do you guys think?

[Moogle]

Given Szeth's inner loathing and hatred, I think it's fair to say that he's being influenced by Odium. Any Shard can power any magic system, so it would not surprise me if Szeth's powers come from Odium, or he was some sort of Voidbinder. I wonder if there's a separate set of Ideals for Voidbinding?

[Vortaan he/him]

Wait... in umpteen Desolations, there's no mention or record of an anti-KR that used a different magic system. I don't know that Voidbinding follows the same rules as Surgebinding, I equate it more to the similarities between Feruchemy and Allomancy.

 

 

[hoser he/him]

Interesting.  I've been assuming that Szeth was on course to become Odium's champion.  A voidbringer is another possibility. 

 

Possibly related:

Szeth is hearing progressively more screaming.

 

"Yelignar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed"

 

Mr. T refers to his Shardblade as a monstrosity. 

 

When he kills Gavilar and leaves Gavilar's Shardblade, Szeth thinks "the blade he already carried was curse enough."

 

Maybe this particular blade is more cursed and monstrous than others. 

 

A key question, for me, is whether Voidbinding encompasses the same powersets as Surgebinding.  With rumors of possession, thunderclasts and midnight essence, there are abilities that do not seem to fall under Surgebinding to me.  If it were just another way to access the same magic, why would it have another name.  My thought is that Voidbinding is different. 

 

I think Szeth is surgebinding using a non-spren source.  My further guess is that the surgebinding ability comes from the sword. 

[Moogle]

A key question, for me, is whether Voidbinding encompasses the same powersets as Surgebinding.  With rumors of possession, thunderclasts and midnight essence, there are abilities that do not seem to fall under Surgebinding to me.  If it were just another way to access the same magic, why would it have another name.  My thought is that Voidbinding is different. 

 

Thunderclasts and Midnight Essence do fall under Surgebinding, though, or at least seem to follow the same pattern. Midnight Essence is smoke-made-flesh, and thunderclasts seem to be stone-made-flesh. Both are essences on the Ars Arcanum. Brandon has said that there are 10 or 30 magic systems, depending on how you look at it, which seems to suggest that everything on Roshar will be like Surgebinding, but there's going to be 3 different ways to access it (one for each Shard?).

[hoser he/him]

Thunderclasts and Midnight Essence do fall under Surgebinding, though, or at least seem to follow the same pattern. Midnight Essence is smoke-made-flesh, and thunderclasts seem to be stone-made-flesh. Both are essences on the Ars Arcanum. Brandon has said that there are 10 or 30 magic systems, depending on how you look at it, which seems to suggest that everything on Roshar will be like Surgebinding, but there's going to be 3 different ways to access it (one for each Shard?).

Are you saying that thunderclasts and midnight essence are just applications of Soulcasting?  I don't agree.  If Jasnah soulcasts something into flesh, you would have flesh, not an animated monster with a will of it's own that has no flesh whatsoever.  Thunderclasts come from something like a spren inserting itself into rock. 

Surgebinding seems to me like an Honor or Honor and Cultivation based system.  Surgebinding can be accessed through spren and maybe fabrials.  We know very little about what Odium's systems are, but from the hints in tWoK, I think they are not just another way to Surgebind.   

[Vortaan he/him]

Are you saying that thunderclasts and midnight essence are just applications of Soulcasting?  I don't agree.  If Jasnah soulcasts something into flesh, you would have flesh, not an animated monster with a will of it's own that has no flesh whatsoever.  Thunderclasts come from something like a spren inserting itself into rock. 

Surgebinding seems to me like an Honor or Honor and Cultivation based system.  Surgebinding can be accessed through spren and maybe fabrials.  We know very little about what Odium's systems are, but from the hints in tWoK, I think they are not just another way to Surgebind.   

 

Agreed. I think any magic system on Roshar is going to use the same focuses, but use them differently. Remember that a Shardworld influences the magic systems that are created on it. I think the focuses and gemstones are going to be consistent across all magics.

[Meg]

"Yelignar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed"

And Yelignar seemed to be a foe to Nohadon and his people:

 

All of my wordsmen were slaughtered when Yelignar broke into the chancery.

(TWoK Chapter 60)

I know this is not at all a proof for my idea .

 

Mr. T refers to his Shardblade as a monstrosity.

He does. But Taravangian also uses Szeth as a "killing machine" apparently without feeling bad (yeah, I know, for him he does this for the "greater good").

[duladen he/him]

Thunderclasts and Midnight Essence do fall under Surgebinding, though, or at least seem to follow the same pattern. Midnight Essence is smoke-made-flesh, and thunderclasts seem to be stone-made-flesh. Both are essences on the Ars Arcanum. Brandon has said that there are 10 or 30 magic systems, depending on how you look at it, which seems to suggest that everything on Roshar will be like Surgebinding, but there's going to be 3 different ways to access it (one for each Shard?).

 

I completely agree. This makes me think that the 10 orders have the same basic abilities, but they each can be accessed by 3 varieties of spren. I believe it has been confirmed that bonded spren are usually a mix of Honor and Cultivation, but leaning toward one or the other, and I have seen it speculated that there are Odium-corrupted spren. So, 10 orders of magic x 3 Shards to provide investiture to access this power?

 

I think the lack of effect of Szeth's lashings on shardplate could either be because of how he accesses the power, or because he is using Windrunner surges on shardplate of a totally different order. Maybe Windrunner surges have a strong effect on Windrunner shardplate, a diminished effect on orders that share abilities with Windrunners, and no effect on all others. I use the term "windrunner" in reference to the abilities that Kaladin and Szeth share, not the order of the KR.

[FirstSelector]

Recall that Ruin could power Allomancy, had he wished.  It could just be that Szeth's sDNA is that required for a Windrunner (i.e. gives him pressure and gravity as surges) but he is getting some external source as opposed to a spren bond.  If Szeth does indeed have Jezrien's blade which gives him access to Surgebinding without a spren, it could be that Odium is giving him additional power which contributes to his irrational hated.

[Morsk he/him]

I figured it was the glyphs on the KR armor, and that you have to etch the right glyphs into the armor to let the wearer's Surgebinding go through it.