Brass compounding what does it do?

[Yata he/him]

Other than reaching 0% of something being evidently impossible and stuff like being too light making it impossible to move properly, nothing comes to mind.

I remember something like 50% but it's not for a book (and I don't be sure came from a WoB).

 

Anyway "the limit" seems to be something different from "if you store many, you die" and in a WoB about the Hemalurgyc decay, Brandon states that a Feruchemical Spike granting is more slow to fill than the original Feruchemist. Therefore there is a "percentage intrinsic" of a Feruchemist/Ferring and the Decay lowers the upperbound

Edited September 30, 2015 by Yata

[king of nowhere]

The thing your analysis here fails to take into account is that an Allomancer can only burn a metal so fast, and a metalmind has a maximum amount of storage. Because of this, you will run into a maximum rate of power storage quite quickly (which is when your metalminds are fully charged and you can only burn so much at one time), and you will stop getting exponential gains after that.

 

Of course, with Allomantic duralumin that restriction is removed. Allomantic duralumin spikes: the dream of any Compounder? Of course, then you run into the restriction of only being able to eat so much metal, but that's what Feruchemical steel is for. At that point, the restriction is how much you can shove down your throat before your throat is essentially sandpaper'd to bits. But that's what Feruchemical gold is for...

I'd add that even duraluminium has speed limits - vin got a few seconds of burn from a vial + duraluminium, meaning duraluminium got you a speed boost between 100 and 1000 times, but not completely instantaneous burning. If you're uncertain about that, consider the scene where she tries to use pewter+duraluminium to resist the poison, and she stays conscious for a few seconds before the pewter runs out, ot the time she uses bronze+duraluminium to figure out which emotions breeze was soothing, and again she got a few seconds of listening.

[Moogle]

I'd add that even duraluminium has speed limits - vin got a few seconds of burn from a vial + duraluminium, meaning duraluminium got you a speed boost between 100 and 1000 times, but not completely instantaneous burning. If you're uncertain about that, consider the scene where she tries to use pewter+duraluminium to resist the poison, and she stays conscious for a few seconds before the pewter runs out, ot the time she uses bronze+duraluminium to figure out which emotions breeze was soothing, and again she got a few seconds of listening.

 

I would differentiate between metal burning speed and the duration of the effect. When you burn a metal, you essentially hold Investiture for a moment (the burning feeling in your stomach), and as we see on other worlds, this dissipates, but it does not dissipate instantly. Note, for example, that Sazed's muscles take time to inflate and deflate when he taps from his pewterminds - the energy may be tapped instantly, but the effects take time to change the body. What we see with Vin could be an example of the same phenomenon.

 

As supporting evidence for "the metal burns instantly", there is a WoB floating around somewhere talking about how Vin's Pushes are compressed into a moment and you get weird behavior around that point or something, it's like dividing by zero. I can't find it, and I may be misremembering it.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Moogle

[Oudeis he/him]

...except that in (EDIT: meant to make this a link to the thread) the example nowhere cites, Vin ends by specifically saying that her pewter runs out. I suppose it's possible she meant 'the effect of my pewter' but the book is filled with examples of burning being on/off; if you burn, you have the effect. If you stop burning, the effect doesn't 'last' for any length of time, it just turns off. Spook is a good example; at his savant rate, if your idea was correct, running out of (or turning off) tin should mean he gradually slides down from supersenses, passing through normal senses, and finally sliding into dull senses. The book is pretty clear that the change is like a lightswitch.

 

Can you give us any support for your idea that burning duralumin and pewter uses up the pewter instantly, but lets the effect last longer? Or is it just an idea you have?

 

Also, there's WoB that if people are more powerful, it means they're burning faster. The answer was given specifically in response to a question about the relative powers of Vin and Elend. Elend does not burn any more efficiently than Vin does, he can just burn faster than she does. If you were right, and duralumin was instant, it would be an equalizer; if they both have a gram of brass in their systems, burning it at once should release identical amounts of power. But they don't; Elend is stronger. Meaning that even under duralumin, his burn rate must be faster than hers.

 

Now, of course, I realize you can speculate about even more esoteric phenomena for which we have no proof. You can say, well maybe duralumin actually does add some power, not just lets you burn through the supply faster, so that explains Elend's power differential. And sure, no one could say it's wrong... but it's a long, long speculative bridge, asking us to ignore clear evidence from the books and supporting W's-o-B. No one will be able to prove it wrong, but I think you're standing in defiance of the evidence if you say that metal burning speed is not the same as duration of the effect.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Oudeis

[Moogle]

...

 

Found the WoB:

Q: When burning duralumin to enhance another metal’s burn, does a mistborn get only the sum total of the power of the other metal in a single burst or does he get more than just the sum?

 

A: I would have to make sure and look, but my original intention was the sum.

 

Q: Ok, because the thing I was wondering about is Elend with the duralumin atium burn because it seemed more than just the sum of a bead of atium.

 

A: Right, but the thing you have to keep in mind is the thing I’m kind of looking at having it all happen in a moment.  So let’s say you have enough steel to burn for an hour.  If you reduce a plane to a point it’s infinite, does that make sense.   And so it’s very hard to say is it the sum when you are going from a defined amount into a point, I mean a point is infinitely small.  Does that make sense?

(source)

 

(It would be really nice if Theoryland had everything so finding this sort of thing didn't take me 10 minutes. Also, I misremembered: it was atium, not Pushes.)

 

Brandon seems to be implying here that the burn is done in an instant.

 

In my opinion, and I hate to overinterpret things, Vin saying she "ran out of pewter" should be taken to mean "she stopped feeling the burn in her stomach corresponding to the Investiture she obtained from pewter".

 

I agree that your position has quite an overwhelming amount of evidence behind it. It's the reasonable position to take. My point above was just attempting to reconcile that WoB with the things we see.

 

A further discussion point: Vin's description of aluminum:

Finally, Vin relented, burning the metal.

Immediately, all of her other metal reserves vanished.

 

"Immediately", not, "over a few seconds". If Vin felt her metals slipping away, she could have stopped burning the aluminum a moment later. Duralumin may work differently, I grant, but there's precedence and a WoB here.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Moogle

[king of nowhere]

in common language, "istantaneously" or "immediately" does mean "in a short enough time compared to the context in which other stuff is happening". Even in science it is often used in that way. No physical phenomenon take place in no time at all. I wouldn't be so strict in interpreting "immediately" or "in a moment".

Otherwise, you could take a character saying "I came immediately" as a statement that he teleported.

 

Anyway, this would require a word of brandon. or better, a word of peter, he's the one who knows best the technical details. A direct statement, not an interpretation over the semantics of a statement on a similar topic.

Edited September 30, 2015 by king of nowhere

[Moogle]

in common language, "istantaneously" or "immediately" does mean "in a short enough time compared to the context in which other stuff is happening". Even in science it is often used in that way. No physical phenomenon take place in no time at all. I wouldn't be so strict in interpreting "immediately" or "in a moment".

Otherwise, you could take a character saying "I came immediately" as a statement that he teleported.

 

And yet, the WoB speaks of things being compressed down to a point (sort of like the Dirac delta function). I am not sold on your interpretation when we have a WoB saying the direct opposite, as well as an example with aluminum showing it is very quick.

 

Remember, Oudeis' theory is that the duralumin burn causes you to go through your metals on the timespan of seconds - seconds in which Vin should have been able to stop burning aluminum. (Yes, aluminum is not duralumin, and Vin may not have realized what was happening which could have contributed to a delay.)

 

The WoB is at odds with what we see in the books, thus my idea that metal burn is correlated with but not the exact same as the duration of effect. I am open to other ideas, naturally - there's always the classic "this WoB is totally wrong because Brandon is not perfect" if you want to go in that direction.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Moogle

[Oudeis he/him]

Notice that the question asks about atium rather than a non-divine metal, the question itself is based on a flawed premise (Elend did not have 'a bead of atium', he had a stomach full of atium), and Mr. Sanderson's reply is vague and abstract.

 

I personally reconcile them by saying, "the stuff we know from the text, supported by concrete and specific WoB is probably right, and this WoB which is vague and abstract is mostly right".  Let me clarify... it's not "totally wrong." He's just talking in an abstract way. Galileo proposed that two weights, one at twice the mass, would fall at the same speed from the leaning tower of pisa. He was wrong... the more massive weight landed while the other was still several inches in the air. He was inexact, but not "totally wrong". What he does flat-out say, without equivocation, is "it is just the sum of the metal, with nothing else added." This is basically like saying two weights will fall at the same speed. The additional line is just allowing that this is only mostly true; one weight will land first, because there are other factors. Doesn't change the underlying principle.

 

Like I said, there is strong evidence that the effects of pewter stop the instant the pewter runs out, like any other metal, so trying to assume that this time it lasts for fifteen seconds after the burn ends, just to justify a vague WoB answering a confusing question... I just don't see the need.

 

Also; you almost seem to be attributing to me the idea that aluminum and duralumin must affect metal at the same rate. I've spoken elsewhere (though I cannot find the link) of the fact that despite apparent similarities, aluminum, duralumin, nicrosil and chromium all have interesting distinctions. Aluminum, for example, metabolizes every metal in your system; duralumin only affects ones which are burning. Aluminum metabolizes itself; duralumin does not. This second fact is germane; since it does metabolize itself, if the burn rate were any slower, it would almost never rid your body of every other metal. Since aluminum is both burning and being metabolized, the candle is burning at both ends, and most other metals you weren't burning would outlast the effect. Finally, duralumin is commonly called a burst, or very fast, or "at once," but is never specifically listed as instantaneously, and from the example I cited, seems to take fifteen seconds. Aluminum, by contrast, is explicitly listed as instantly the one time it is used. (I will try to post the direct quote when I get home from the gym tonight).

 

Saying that if we assume duralumin takes fifteen seconds, we must assume the same of aluminum, is like saying copper must affect ones own emotions, because zinc affects others'. Just because one is the 'internal' version of the other does not assume they are otherwise identical in every respect; indeed, we have example after example of times they have many differences.

 

"I came immediately"

 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Oudeis

[Moogle]

...

 

A few things:

• I don't find the WoB particularly abstract (though later parts are). He outright says, "the thing you have to keep in mind is the thing I’m kind of looking at having it all happen in a moment." I find this completely at odds with the idea of a burn happening over 5 seconds+. I do get your point that when Brandon speaks of things in this manner that our confidence in correctly interpreting the WoB should go down, as he may be slightly off/simplifying/etc.
• That said, the evidence is extremely strong and overwhelming for the burn rate of metals simply being increased rather than being nigh-instantaneous. I find your position agreeable.
• I am not attributing the idea of aluminum and duralumin burning at the same rate to you. I was just bringing up the burn rate of aluminum and extrapolating it to the uncertain burn rate of duralumin-boosted metals, since the mechanics should be similar (much like all the base-alloy pairs).
• Pewter might seem like it runs out instantly normally when you end it, but a duralumin burn should cause you to have a greater amount of Investiture in your system at any given time. I find no contradiction between the idea that pewter-power will linger in your system for a few seconds after a duralumin burn, but be gone almost instantly otherwise. Imagine a partially filled balloon being vs. a full balloon and how long it takes for air to escape when you untie the end - or, to bring it back to Stormlight, how long it takes Kaladin to run out of Stormlight when he breathes in from one gem vs many. Again, I point to Stormlight as one of the many, many examples we have of how Investiture takes its time in leaking out of people.
• I am not particularly sold on my analysis, but I feel you're slightly overconfident given that, to my knowledge, this one WoB is all we have in relation to duralumin. I will not be surprised if you're right, but there is room in my mind for doubt because of how much intuitive sense the WoB makes to me. (I've been playing with the Dirac delta function a lot recently.)

Other than that, I really have little else to add to this discussion. Again, I wish to repeat that your position has an overwhelming amount of evidence and makes sense, even if it is possibly contradicted by WoB. Our main difference seems to be the differing amount of faith we have in the WoB in question. I would heartily support someone asking a question re. duralumin during the SoS tour and clearing things up.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Moogle