Where does Feruchemy come from?

[natc]

You can literally have magic systems manifested from two shards that are dead, like AonDor, that ends up being so complicated that even the people able to use it barely understood it, and is basically a programmer's wet dream.

I'd think aligning to intent automatically is far from the strangest bit of realmatics out there.

I also don't see how your interpretation involves any less deliberate design, tbh. If anything, like Harmony himself, storing feruchemical charges basically stops you from doing much of anything effectively.

Preservation is a very active drive to maintain order in a universe of ever-increasing entropy, the opposite of Ruin trying to accelerate it. Large amounts of external power being applied to something to keep it intact is totally in line with Preservation, possibly the one intent among the 16 that basically seeks to overcome nature's providence with all its might.

[Yata he/him]

You know I have heard that reasoning as for why the Systems are aligned like that and even if it's true for me that only really makes sense if they were actively crafted by the Shardholders but as far as we know they weren't, they were created in an almost mechanical way.

 

Well a shard with or without holder, carry a Colossal amount of Investiture with Intent, the magic are just an collateral effect.

The Magic system are only a way to "Manifest the Investiture" in the Physical Realm.

They exist without any Shardholder will, but like we could see in mistborn, a Shard could bend a little the "Manifestation of His Investiture" for his purpose (Ex. Preservation and the atium misting, Ruin and the crafting of Spike by unwilling peoples").

The fact that a magic system exist without any active creation. It don't mean that a Shard could not push the things, as preservation giving at the humans the "potential's allomancy" (and from a my theory also indirectly the feruchemy)

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

I posted a new theory on this point, given that my post was quite long and we are already on page 2 of this thread.

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/43322-theory-origins-of-feruchemy/

[Oudeis he/him]

Feruchemy: neutral and works by putting something into a stasis, which fits rather well with the pure Intent of the Shard of Preservation. (Something that isn't inherently positive and if left unchecked would like nothing more than to put the entire world in a stasis.)

Allomancy: positive, takes energy from somewhere else. Which I have to say fits best with the combination of the Shards, as it fits with both the "ruin something to preserve something else" theme 

 

I feel like people are missing a point here. The underlying assumption (not to pick on Edgedancer, a lot of people are thinking this way) is that the natural state of the world is one of stasis. It's not, it's of decay. Feruchemy, in and of itself, is somewhat static, but within the context of a system of decay (by which I mean, a person slowly dying, as we all are) is doing nothing to prevent this decay. It doesn't help the broader picture remain more static, but it also doesn't cause it to decay any faster.

 

Hemalurgy, obviously, casuses things to decay faster. Allomancy is powered by the infinite power of Preservation, so nothing is being lost in the power transfer, but the end result is more stasis. A person isn't using up their own body's resources, they are getting benefit, putting energy into the world, without cost. Keeping things more stable by fighting against entropy.

 

I think that's what confuses people. They are missing the context that the systems exist within. Feruchemy seems like "Preservation" because it's not changing anything, itself, but it's also within the context of a body dying, and doing nothing to keep that body stable. It's not Ruining it, but it's not Preserving it. Hemalurgy ruins it. Allomancy preserves it.

[Edgedancer he/him]

Snapping is also something to consider, the point is to consider how you receive the power rather than what the power itself does. Hemalurgic power is only received by bringing ruin upon other creatures. Allomancy is only brought about as an act to preserve your own life.

Or if you swallow a bead of metal.

Anyway, there is a completely unrelated reason for snapping, in that there needs to be a crack for foreign Investure to enter. If you want a philosophical argument, it could also be laid out that Allomancy depends on ruin to happen, while Feruchemy can take place in an undamaged system without ruin.

 

You can literally have magic systems manifested from two shards that are dead, like AonDor, that ends up being so complicated that even the people able to use it barely understood it, and is basically a programmer's wet dream.

I'd think aligning to intent automatically is far from the strangest bit of realmatics out there.

I also don't see how your interpretation involves any less deliberate design, tbh. If anything, like Harmony himself, storing feruchemical charges basically stops you from doing much of anything effectively.

Preservation is a very active drive to maintain order in a universe of ever-increasing entropy, the opposite of Ruin trying to accelerate it. Large amounts of external power being applied to something to keep it intact is totally in line with Preservation, possibly the one intent among the 16 that basically seeks to overcome nature's providence with all its might.

Not really, as you point out the magic on Sel is created by two Shards intermixing, so it makes sense the Intent of a single isn't 100% clear. If we on the other hand look at something like BioChroma, which can clearly be conected to a Shard the connection becaomes apparent.

 

It's not about my design not being deliberate, it is about the criterias used to interpret the systems.

 

I feel like people are missing a point here. The underlying assumption (not to pick on Edgedancer, a lot of people are thinking this way) is that the natural state of the world is one of stasis. It's not, it's of decay. Feruchemy, in and of itself, is somewhat static, but within the context of a system of decay (by which I mean, a person slowly dying, as we all are) is doing nothing to prevent this decay. It doesn't help the broader picture remain more static, but it also doesn't cause it to decay any faster.

 

Hemalurgy, obviously, casuses things to decay faster. Allomancy is powered by the infinite power of Preservation, so nothing is being lost in the power transfer, but the end result is more stasis. A person isn't using up their own body's resources, they are getting benefit, putting energy into the world, without cost. Keeping things more stable by fighting against entropy.

 

I think that's what confuses people. They are missing the context that the systems exist within. Feruchemy seems like "Preservation" because it's not changing anything, itself, but it's also within the context of a body dying, and doing nothing to keep that body stable. It's not Ruining it, but it's not Preserving it. Hemalurgy ruins it. Allomancy preserves it.

Oh I'm aware of it and it is a perfect explanation for why Leras would like this system as would Ruin but it can also be taken as an argument why Allomancy should be the middle one. As you point out Allomacy is preservation within the context of ruin, an intersection of the both, it holds back the effect of entropy but at the same time allows more entropy to happen. Feruchemy on the other hand is just preserving something without context. Now what sounds more like pure preservation, the one that exsists within the context of what it got presumably mixed with and creates a balance not giving either universal force an edge or the one that ignores the context and just moves towards the static world without entropy that would happen if Preservation were the ruling force of the system?

 

Let me refer you back to the creation of life on Scardrial. Preservation needed Ruin's help, because on his own he was not able to give something to the system and create, instead of just letting things stay as they are. Ruin agreed because that means there would later be more for him to destroy, pointing towards his primary directive is causing entropy itself not the end result in form of the heat death of the universe, at which point he would eradicate himself. Creation, a movement towards the positive so to speak, has been shown to be the balance between them, not neutrality.

You do an excellent of pointing out why there is Preservation in Allomancy but I never said there wasn't, only that there is also Ruin.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Oudeis he/him]

As you point out Allomacy is preservation within the context of ruin, an intersection of the both, it holds back the effect of entropy but at the same time allows more entropy to happen. Feruchemy on the other hand is just preserving something without context.

 

You are missing 100% of my point. They are happening within the same context. If allomancy is taking place within the context of "the universe", how can you possibly justify comparing it to feruchemy taking place without the context of the world it is within?

 

All things are decaying, all of the time. Every body is dying. Every stone is degrading. Every metal is rusting. The world marches towards heat death. That is the context. Allomancy is within this context. Feruchemy is within this context. Hemalurgy is within this context.

 

In this context, hemalurgy speeds up the decay. It wastes things faster than entropy is.

 

In this context, feruchemy is neutral. It doesn't take anything permanently out of the system, and it doesn't add anything new to the system. All checks are balanced. At the end, it's a zero-sum. The world is exactly as it would have been if there had been no feruchemy; no energy is either added or lost.

 

In this context, allomancy is a force for stasis. The world is in a state of ruin; it is losing energy. That is the case, regardless of whether allomancy is being used. Allomancy tried to balance this loss by adding energy; saying that allomancy is "an intersection of ruin" because it's occuring within a decaying system is like saying that slowing your car from 50mph to 45mph is like saying the change is an equal mix of slow-and-fast, because the car already had speed to begin with. The whole system has both slow and fast; the actual change of speed, however, is purely slow.

 

Let's extend the analogy. Preservation, Stasis, we're going to call it Stop. It's Intent is that the car cease moving. It wants the MPH to be 0. Ruin is now Go. It wants decay to happen at the fastest possible rate. It wants the MPH to be infinite.

 

The world is decaying; this is fact. If there were no arcana, the car is moving. It's not going 0, and it's not going infinite speed. Let's say it's going 50mph right now. Hemalurgy makes things worse. It causes things to decay faster; energy is lost. The MPH rises to 60. Clearly, this is of ruin.

 

Nothing changes in hemalurgy. Things stay exactly as they're going... but that means the car is still moving. It is still going from point A to point B, and will get there someday. Traveling at 50mph is not a stop. Feruchemy doesn't change the mph. Nothing, at the end of the day, is lost or gained. Things are still changing, at exactly the same rate as before. Nothing is being preserved any more than it was before, and nothing is being ruined any faster. We are no closer to 0 or infinite mph than we were before.

 

Allomancy does change it. Allomancy, by adding energy to a system losing energy, slows the car. Now we're at 40mph. It's not perfect, and hasn't managed to stop the car. But now we're closer to 0, and further from infinite. It will take us longer to get to Point B (Point B is the heat death of the universe). And the "energy" being added to slow the car comes from the infinite power of creation, so it's not being used up.

 

I can see where the confusion comes from; feruchemy changes nothing about itself, and looks like stasis, if you're the person inside the car. But a car isn't static, and the world isn't static. Preservation's Intent isn't to let things keep decaying at their current rate, it's to stop decay altogether. Feruchemy lets things keep decaying; allomancy seeks to arrest the trend.

[natc]

Finally, someone else brings up entropy.

Car analogies are always nice. They work with anything.

[Edgedancer he/him]

You are missing 100% of my point. They are happening within the same context. If allomancy is taking place within the context of "the universe", how can you possibly justify comparing it to feruchemy taking place without the context of the world it is within?

 

All things are decaying, all of the time. Every body is dying. Every stone is degrading. Every metal is rusting. The world marches towards heat death. That is the context. Allomancy is within this context. Feruchemy is within this context. Hemalurgy is within this context.

 

In this context, hemalurgy speeds up the decay. It wastes things faster than entropy is.

 

In this context, feruchemy is neutral. It doesn't take anything permanently out of the system, and it doesn't add anything new to the system. All checks are balanced. At the end, it's a zero-sum. The world is exactly as it would have been if there had been no feruchemy; no energy is either added or lost.

 

In this context, allomancy is a force for stasis. The world is in a state of ruin; it is losing energy. That is the case, regardless of whether allomancy is being used. Allomancy tried to balance this loss by adding energy; saying that allomancy is "an intersection of ruin" because it's occuring within a decaying system is like saying that slowing your car from 50mph to 45mph is like saying the change is an equal mix of slow-and-fast, because the car already had speed to begin with. The whole system has both slow and fast; the actual change of speed, however, is purely slow.

 

Let's extend the analogy. Preservation, Stasis, we're going to call it Stop. It's Intent is that the car cease moving. It wants the MPH to be 0. Ruin is now Go. It wants decay to happen at the fastest possible rate. It wants the MPH to be infinite.

 

The world is decaying; this is fact. If there were no arcana, the car is moving. It's not going 0, and it's not going infinite speed. Let's say it's going 50mph right now. Hemalurgy makes things worse. It causes things to decay faster; energy is lost. The MPH rises to 60. Clearly, this is of ruin.

 

Nothing changes in hemalurgy. Things stay exactly as they're going... but that means the car is still moving. It is still going from point A to point B, and will get there someday. Traveling at 50mph is not a stop. Feruchemy doesn't change the mph. Nothing, at the end of the day, is lost or gained. Things are still changing, at exactly the same rate as before. Nothing is being preserved any more than it was before, and nothing is being ruined any faster. We are no closer to 0 or infinite mph than we were before.

 

Allomancy does change it. Allomancy, by adding energy to a system losing energy, slows the car. Now we're at 40mph. It's not perfect, and hasn't managed to stop the car. But now we're closer to 0, and further from infinite. It will take us longer to get to Point B (Point B is the heat death of the universe). And the "energy" being added to slow the car comes from the infinite power of creation, so it's not being used up.

 

I can see where the confusion comes from; feruchemy changes nothing about itself, and looks like stasis, if you're the person inside the car. But a car isn't static, and the world isn't static. Preservation's Intent isn't to let things keep decaying at their current rate, it's to stop decay altogether. Feruchemy lets things keep decaying; allomancy seeks to arrest the trend.

The funny thing is, you are also missing my point. (pratially maybe because I've been making it badly.) First to keep with you analogy, no Allomancy doesn't change the long run, because it wouldn't "slow" the car it would make the distance longer, which in turn would prolong reaching point B but Ruin is about entropy aka the journey to point B not reaching it and Preservation is not about not reaching point B but about not making the journey there (in a way the heat death is actually the ultimate expression of Preservation as nothing changes anymore), still zero sum, just of a different kind.  The thing is (and this is the part I probably expresed badly) because of that neither Allomancy nor Feruchemy can be can be without doubt be defined as the one purely of Preservation or as the one that's a mix, at least not without outside sources like WOB.

Your reasoning may be the "right" one, because that's what Brandon intended, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it as the only logical one. (which might just make another one of the people searching to much for a completely logical/satisfying answer in Brandon's work and as such overthinks everything. Guess I'll have to live with that.)

 

...Or and that's just a thought I had just now and may be completely destroyed by a WOB out there but could the assumption one Ruin one Preservation and one a mix may be slightly faulty and it's more one mostly of Ruin and one mostly of Preservation. Because if we really dig into it Hemalurgy preserves something within ruin, afterall for ultimate ruin just stabbing someone to death and letting everything they have disapear at once causes much more ruin that to capture someting for who knows how long in a metal spike.

Now excuse me while I search for a spot in the crazy conspiracy corrner.

[Oudeis he/him]

I don't think anything you say here is fully accurate.

 

1. How does allomancy make the distance "longer"? Point A is the moment of creation. Point B is the heat death of the universe. The world loses energy at a certain rate (this is the MPH in the example). Allomancy, by adding energy, briefly changes the rate at which energy is lost, slowing it.

 

There's a big hill on my way to work. I bike up it to get to work. I bike down it to get home. Due to that hill, my commute in is 45 minutes, and out it's 30 minutes. The hill doesn't make my route in physically longer, it just changes my speed.

 

Allomancy isn't providing some shortcut, or making you take a detour, or making the "distance" between the two locations any different. Point A is n units of energy, point B is 0 units of energy. The distance between them is n. Adding energy to the system after the fact does not change how much energy the system had in the first place, and that's "distance" in this analogy.

 

2. Ruin is not about "the journey." Vin knows, when she first becomes Preservation, that if Ruin had the power to, he would simply snuff the world out like a candle. That's what he needs the atium for; to overpower Preservation and destroy the world. He certainly enjoys the act of ruination, but he's all about the ending. If he could have that this instant, he would.

3. The epigraphs of the Hero of Ages tell us that "there being nothing" isn't Preservation enough; there has to be SOMETHING to preserve or it doesn't count. A universe entirely devoid of energy might be static, but it's not Preservation. This might seem counter-intuitive, but we have the actual Hero of Ages's word on it from the epigraphs of the book.

 

4. Again, the epigraphs. Yes, they can both be defined as a mix, or of one, because God said so. Allomancy draws all of it's power directly from Preservation. It was gained via nuggets of pure Preservation's power, used to rewrite your spiritweb to more closely have a direct link to Preservation. It is of Preservation. There's no debating this point. Feruchemy neither adds power to the system nor loses it. It does not affect the world's natural slide towards heat death. It is of balance.

 

5. I'm not really sure where you're trying to go here. I've been discussing the official definition, per Harmony. If you instead want to talk about how, if you think about it, there are aspects of allomancy that in a vague, philosophical kind of way that might be sorta like ruin... well, I guess I can't prevent you. But comparing them while putting allomancy in the context of the real world but feruchemy entirely devoid of context and expecting people to think you're drawing logical conclusions... that, I believe, is inaccurate. And I simply have no idea what you mean when you say allomancy isn't slowing the rate of energy loss in the universe, it's "making the distance longer". That just makes no sense.