20150907 - rohyu - Theavis (Chapter 5)

[rohyu he/him]

I worked on upping the pacing, but I'm not sure if I cut out enough to make it more enjoyable yet. I cut back hard on McTuggard's accent to make it less intrusive, but I kept it in part. 

 

Was this chapter engaging? If you've read the other 4 chapters, is this one more enjoyable?

Was McTuggard's accent still obtrusive to the point of annoyance for most people?

And any other thoughts you have about the chapter in general would be great.

 

Thanks everyone.

Edited September 8, 2015 by rohyu

[Robinski he/him]

Hi Rohyu - can I be a pest (yes, I can!), and request that you tag the topic titles with the chapter numbers each week? Not that I go back and forth between them, but occasionally people post way after the even and it can be a little confusing.

[rohyu he/him]

No problem. Sorry I didn't think of that in the first place. I don't think there is a way to change the title of this post (let me know if there is) but I will make sure to include the chapter numbers from now on.

[Shrike76 he/him]

I don't think there is a way to change the title of this post (let me know if there is) but I will make sure to include the chapter numbers from now on.

 

Yes you can but it isn't obvious. You can edit the first post in the topic, then you have to click "Use Full Editor" and that will allow you to change the Topic Title.

[Asmodemon he/him]

Well, to be brutally honest (and I don’t want to sound harsh, but I think it might come across as such), I didn’t enjoy this chapter any more than I did the last. And that’s because of a couple reasons.

 

Accent: Yes, it’s still annoying to me.  And that’s not going to change, since I hate accents being written out like this. Now, your mileage may vary of course, but that’s how I feel.

 

Past overwhelms the present: There is still a lot of talk about the past and the importance of the past in the first pages of the chapter, but I’m not invested yet in the characters to care. We get yet another name-drop, Katinov. Why should I care that he left the mage-core? Why should I care he thought he had a better plan? And, most of all, why should I care that he has returned? At this point he can enter the stage in chapter 6 and kill everyone and it won’t matter, since I still don’t have a reason to care about any of them. Thankfully the info-dumping is only the first couple pages in this chapter. Unfortunately it’s still half a chapter.

 

Bridge between chapters: I had to look back to chapter three to remember that they were turning back at the end of it. For a moment I couldn’t figure out how the small party suddenly got big again and went from wilderness to slamming on tables. Now, reading this as one sitting would help with that, but another reason I didn’t remember is that I skimmed most of the previous submission because of all the info-dumps.

 

Action: Yes, something happens, and that’s very good. It does mirror the attack in chapter three though when Theavis and the others are attacked. Theavis is being led around by other characters. He doesn’t do anything himself. That is a real liability in getting enjoyment out of the story. If you replace Theavis with, say, a ring of power the bad guys really want you’ll still have essentially the same story. Theavis at this point is less a character and more of a McGuffin. Your main character doesn’t have agency. The other characters do, so maybe one of them should be the main character?

 

POV: Especially in the beginning I’m not sure about whose point of view we’re seeing the scene from. There is nothing there that specifically ties it to Theavis.

 

Magnus: The reference to Magnus was a little confusing, I first thought Magnus was a mage who polymorphed himself into a column. But it’s actually the place they’re all in and not a person.

 

Terminology: For me there are too many new names and terms to remember. Mage Core, Pelegra, Tenglorian, Tenous, Katinov, fatforgs, etc.

 

Reason for the attack: You introduce a bad guy by the name of Katinov and a few paragraphs later his forces apparently attack. Now this may contradict what I’ve said about too much information, but this attack needs more context and setting up to make sense.

[rohyu he/him]

I don't think you were harsh at all. All of your points are very helpful. 

 

I think the world I created could be interesting, but the story I'm telling in it is boring.

 

Most of the rest of the chapters follow the same dull pattern of fight - info dump- fight- info dump. I think I may try writing in a new genre for a bit. 

Edited September 9, 2015 by rohyu

[Shrike76 he/him]

I see a lot of the same things in this chapter which bothered me earlier. Out of curiosity, are you writing these as you go, or have you already finished this novel?

 

You added a lot of action, which is nice, but it's still all happening around Theavis without him doing much about anything. On page 6, your writing was very unclear and I thought Theavis was the first to shout "Ehadiem" and I thought, "Finally, the main character is doing something!" but I was proven wrong, and it was McTuggart who was making things happen with his water-thingies.

And then at the very end, it seems like Theavis does actually do something but you gloss over it and we don't get to see the results. I found it very frustrating.

 

Another thing I'll note: We are now at chapter 5 and I can not think of a single thing that distinguishes Theavis from everyone around him. Aside from being a human (I think?) with no strange features (because everyone else has extra arms or legs or an annoying accent or can merge into stone or can cast spells...). Theavis is by far the most boring character in this story. Whatever other advice you choose to heed or ignore when you continue or when you rewrite this, your main character cannot be this uninteresting and that really needs to change.

 

I'm completely lost as to who/what/where everybody is. We've had a huge press of characters with strange names and of different races, and all the place names. There's been so much exposition in these chapters that I can't keep everything straight. The week-to-week delay isn't helping, but I don't think I'd have grasped it all even if I'd done a straight read-through. I think this story could benefit greatly from cutting down the number of secondary characters, and I say secondary only because Theavis is your point of view character, everybody else has been doing the bulk of moving the story along.

 

General Language:

 - When you pluralize a word, you never need to put an apostrophe (crack's, torso's, etc.)

 

I was hoping to provide some positive feedback but I'm finding it very hard to be drawn into this story and I don't have much to offer. What it feels like is that you've done a lot of worldbuilding and you want to show it all to us, but there's not enough of a story going on for the world and its history to shine through. Even the action sequences seem geared towards showing us more of the world, because it shows us the monsters and how the characters fight them. This is okay to an extent, but it gets to be transparent. Try to make the action sequences more relevant to the characters by having them get in the way of those character goals. I'd love to see what the risks and rewards are for the characters (and especially Theavis) in failing or succeeding in those instances.

[Shrike76 he/him]

I think the world I created could be interesting, but the story I'm telling in it is boring.

 

Most of the rest of the chapters follow the same dull pattern of fight - info dump- fight- info dump. I think I may try writing in a new genre for a bit. 

 

I hadn't read through the entire thread and didn't realize when I wrote my comment that you'd come to more or less the same conclusion as me just above.

If you're genuinely interested in improving the story itself, maybe you could take it back to an outline and get suggestions for improving that before either attempting a rewrite or abandoning the idea for something else?

[Robinski he/him]

Straight into the comments, summary at the bottom.

 

I think using numbers in narrative, certainly in a fantasy story, is disorienting. I guess in SF it’s more in keeping due to the technical aspects, but in Fantasy, it feels out of place to me.

 

Wow, Theavis is sixteen? I did not get that at all – I think he comes across much older, like thirty.

 

There are a lot of characters named at the start here and I really don’t remember that many of them. It might be Weekly Reader Syndrome (WRS), but if there is some way to just tag them with one word or two at most it might help the reader keep track, if it’s an issue for alpha readers. McTuggard and Norlord, I have no issue with, and Sterling is the angry man, hard to forget that, but the others I struggle to remember.

 

“There is not time...” awkward – suggest, “There is no time”

 

Why are they only learning about the black bridge now? Is this not something that would have been conveyed immediately?

 

 “A legion of creatures creature's...” – the apostrophe is possessive.

 

“There was no sign of the other mages Mage's. Theavis's gaze wandered...” – again with the apostrophe, although second use is fine.

 

Yikes, real cliff-hanger ending – but I don’t think that’s out of tone with the story.

 

In summary, I still like the epic scale of the story, huge geological features shifting around. I think that aspect could even be emphasised a bit more. The magic is interesting, unexplained – which I don’t mind. It’s almost like superpowers in the way that it’s used. The characters don’t seem especially deep, maybe a tad one-dimensional at the moment which again, to me, gives the story a blockbuster-y, superhero-y feel. I don’t mind that either. Not everyone should be writing WoT or GoT.

 

The others make some good comments that I will say I tend to agree with in terms of Past vs. Present and Theavis as a character. The addition of more action is good, but it should come with threat, which I think could be accentuated more.

 

Looking forward to seeing if McTuggard gets torched (Nah, it’ll never happen). In that vein actually, not sure that the enemies here feel like much of a threat.

[rohyu he/him]

Asmodemon: My intention was to introduce the idea of Katinov by showing Pelegra a few times. If I made it clearer and earlier on that Katinov created Pelegra would that work? Or would you suggest introducing Katinov himself earlier?

 

Shrike: I am not really sure what the best thing to do is regarding revising,rewriting, or starting on something else.  I am somewhat embarrassed to admit it, but the chapters I am submitting are from my 4th draft.   I don't want to give up on a story just because it needs a lot of work, but I also don't want to spend more time polishing a turd, so to speak.

 

One of the biggest problems I think is Theavis. He isn't interesting or likeable, and is very much a McGuffin. I'm not really sure how to fix any of that while also cutting/fixing all the info dumps. After 3-4 more chapters Theavis has a scene with McTuggard where I try to make him more likeable, but it seems that scene happens way too late, and I think it would seem out of place if shoved in earlier.

 

After this chapter I start to develop all of the characters more, but again I think it's too late.

 

 

 

Robinski: The bridge appeared on the eyni sea minutes before everybody found out about it. I will have to make that clearer. 

 

I cut out a chapter that tells the theogany of the world and how magic works because it was basically one huge info dump. I need to find a way to sprinkle all that info over a lot of chapters without making things boring.

 

Everyone: As far as the action and enemies go, I want the characters to be as confused as the reader about what the motivations behind each odd attack are. But I think the way I did it just makes things seem random rather than confusing. Would it solve the problem if I added in a line of dialogue where someone says something like, "these attacks doesn't make sense, where are they coming from"? Or is it more about the set-up?

 

Regarding McTuggard's accent, I think the story is a YA story, and I think YA likes (or tolerates) accents more. I may be wrong about that though.

 

 

My grammar skills are horrendous. I know the apostrophe rule, but I still mess it up all the time. I'll keep trying to fix the grammar before I submit. Thank you for pointing out the mistakes.

 

 

 Any advice you have about any of the problems of the story are welcome. Starting a new story that isn't so massive in scale might be the way to go though.

[rdpulfer he/him]

- Maybe you should make a little more of the revelation of the character's ages, particularly that Norlord is 432. But I do like that Theavis is only 16. I wonder if he would be glad or disappointed by this fact.

 

- Okay, does "former human member" mean he used to be part of the Mage Core or that he used to be human? You have so many eccentric characters here it's tough to tell. 

 

- It definitely feels like the POV shifts after the focus is on Magnus.

 

- The attack scene is very well-paced and definitely enhances the stakes greatly.

 

- I like the conclusion. My only problem is . . . if Theavis is the POV and unconscious . . . how are we going to know what happened to McTuggard? I suppose my question will be answered next time

[Shrike76 he/him]

Shrike: I am not really sure what the best thing to do is regarding revising,rewriting, or starting on something else.  I am somewhat embarrassed to admit it, but the chapters I am submitting are from my 4th draft.   I don't want to give up on a story just because it needs a lot of work, but I also don't want to spend more time polishing a turd, so to speak.

 

One of the biggest problems I think is Theavis. He isn't interesting or likeable, and is very much a McGuffin. I'm not really sure how to fix any of that while also cutting/fixing all the info dumps. After 3-4 more chapters Theavis has a scene with McTuggard where I try to make him more likeable, but it seems that scene happens way too late, and I think it would seem out of place if shoved in earlier.

 

[...]

 

My grammar skills are horrendous. I know the apostrophe rule, but I still mess it up all the time. I'll keep trying to fix the grammar before I submit. Thank you for pointing out the mistakes.

 

 Any advice you have about any of the problems of the story are welcome. Starting a new story that isn't so massive in scale might be the way to go though.

 

I try to avoid telling people what to do with their writing, but I don't want you to quit because you got some bad feedback, especially if some of it was mine.

 

1) Don't quit!

 

2) I rewrote the same short story 9 times, so I know where you're coming from. I don't know that it's necessarily polishing a turd, but if you don't know what's wrong or what you're trying to fix in rewrites, then I do think that it's wasted effort. You're throwing darts blindfolded and hoping for a bullseye. In my case I got feedback but I wasn't sure how to fix it so I tried something in a rewrite which failed. Then I did it again, and again... If you don't feel this one story is working out and you don't have a fix in mind, put it down and try something else. Maybe you have a good story to tell but your skills aren't up to it yet, and it's okay to admit that and move on to something else for now. Short fiction is great for honing skills, if you have some ideas.

 

3) If you think you have some idea of what is going wrong with the structure, take a step back. Reduce it to a detailed outline and see if you can get feedback on that (I'm up for it if you want help, you can message me directly if you don't want to submit an outline to the group). Then start back on the novel. It's a lot easier to get advice on fixing the structure in a 500-1,000 word detailed outline than it is in a 50-80,000+ word novel. 

 

4) If you KNOW you have something that needs work (you said grammar), then you owe it to yourself to work on that, but realize that it is work and that it sucks and it can take a very long time. I spent 3 years reading and rereading a grammar reference and it was worse than eating my vegetables, and I still get some of it wrong but I keep working at it. Pick one grammar book up and commit to reading a chapter or two a month so you make fewer of those mistakes, and so that it doesn't take up too much of your time.

 

5) General Feedback for Improving this particular Novel: A.) Theavis is a boring character. Take some time on a separate paper to describe him to yourself and focus on what makes his personality different or interesting, then make sure he always acts in character (and I don't mean an accent or a limp or an eyepatch, I mean personality). Make sure he's got a stake in the story as well, rather than just being a passenger on a train of events. B.) The story is very much plot-driven rather than character-driven. Sometimes you can get away with this if you're very good, but I'd say most people prefer books where the characters make choices and have to live with them, rather than only ever having the world throw junk at them and watching how well they dodge. C.) What would help with both of the previous points is Theavis having a clear goal. It's okay if those goalposts get moved mid-novel, but he should be working towards something. D.) If the answer to any of these points lies in chapter six or ten or twelve, consider cutting out everything before that point and dropping us into the thick of the interesting action. If that's impossible, consider reducing the front matter to a single chapter, by the end of which we should have an idea what the goal might be. 

 

5) Don't quit!

[Kammererite]

your specific questions:

 

Yes this is my favourite of the chapters to date. it is more engaging to me at least. i was very happy to start getting some answers.

 

The accent was never too bad for me.

 

Other comments: 

 

Not a bad thing more of an FYI but for some reason when i see fatforgs my brain reads fart-frogs. it cause me to double take a few times when reading.

 

I was lost with the whos who at the counsel.

 

Personally and i know many disagree but i would love to be info dumped on (in an interesting way) at this point or earlier. I feel quite lost with all the terms, and races and am having trouble keeping it straight. I imagine Theavis would as well having lost his memory. 

 

That being said you still have a really cool world, i want to know more about it. 

I am wondering if Magnus died when they shattered his rock column

 

The action was nice but i wish Theavis joined in/did more.

 

[rohyu he/him]

I didn't mean to sound defeatist. I'm not going to quit . I just am not positive whether to move on or not from this story.

I think you know this already, but I don't think any of the criticism was harsh or unfounded. It was all helpful. Of course I would have loved to have written a classic in 3 drafts, but I'm fine with the fact that I didn't.

 

I think it starts to get more interesting the next few chapters, but I'm still not sure how to get to those chapters without a lot of infodump-filled setup. There is a lot I need to introduce, even with cutting out a lot of world building so far. I guess I can let you guys tell me if the next chapters are interesting .

 

I think Relvaris is far more interesting and well developed than Theavis, but the story surrounding Theavis is much more interesting and goes deep into the lore of the world. I might have to switch main characters. I've tried to think of a way to make Theavis more proactive, and I think he is in later chapters, but I'll have to keep thinking about him.

Edited September 12, 2015 by rohyu

[Robinski he/him]

Shrike forgot a couple of rules:

 

6) - Don't quit!

 

and

 

7) - Don't you dare quit!!

 

Glad to hear you've no intention of it.

 

 

I really don't think it's a bad story. There is lots of action (I'm guilty of too much sequel, and prequel for that matter), and a number of different characters that seem to have scope to develop. Theavis does too, but these events are so compressed that he's not going to have time of character development, but he could still be more convincing. Shrike makes a good point (one of many) that it may be something you need some distance from, and to develop your skills then come back to it. There's no reason that you can't continue to submit and complete submitting it here even if you've started planning something else.