How did Jasnah break?

[Oudeis he/him]

Thank you, Seloun, for finding exactly the passage I was thinking of!

 

 

(there's some implication that she spent most of her youth in politics).

 

Well, she did marry the king of Roshar's America. I guess that could be considered political...

 

Seriously, the Kholins are just the Kennedys.

[02ranger he/him]

I just reread the Jasnah WoR prologue, and I actually think she did break when her father died. She was obviously hurt by it and didn't seem broken to me before, although I know that's not concrete. I know the biggest argument against this is the belief she had already bonded Ivory, but this was clearly the first time she'd visited Shadesmar and the first time she saw the spren, but not the first time her shadow started acting up. The problem with that is she visited Shadesmar just before Gavilar's death, not after. But I'm wondering if the spren are attracted to their people before they're broken. Maybe they're there when the person breaks, ready to bond, and that's how Jasnah visited Shadesmar when she did. This doesn't seem to hold true for Kaladin but there is evidence that Shallan, Jasnah, and Dalinar either had experiences with their spren before breaking or exhibited symptoms of the bond before they were clearly bonded.

Shallan had access to Pattern at a very young age and I "think" the thing that broke her was accomplished with Pattern, but that may not hold true. I don't remember the sequence of events that well.

Jasnah visited Shadesmar before breaking, "if" I end up being right. That ones a big if.

Dalinar experienced quite a few symptoms of the bond before bonding the Stormfather, such as aversion to Blades and using Stormlight to heal during battle before bonding the Stormfather, and one post said losing the Thrill was a symptom of that as well. Dalinar is my strongest example for this theory.

This is only a sort of half theory right now. I wanted to post my thoughts while they're fresh so I don't forget. Any thoughts in support or against?

[kaellok he/him]

It seems to be the case. Someone suggested that Jasnah broke because she was afraid her mother was going to start torturing sentient spren like Ivory... which seems odd, since would she have any personal connection to sentient spren before she broke and attracted Ivory?

If you're referring to me (and I'm the only one I'm aware of who has posted something like that) then I merely think that the bond to Ivory may be what caused the distance between Jasnah and her mother to form--specifically because of fear of testing, trapping, etc.  Which would, obviously, necessitate the bond to have occurred prior to their distance, and having absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with her breaking.  If you're referring to someone else, then that does indeed seem to not track as you say.

 

More quotes from Oudeis below, taken from their response to my post!  (But I failed in the MultiQuote thing, so I just copy/pasted manually.)

 

 

This is a common theory I see floating around that I personally think holds absolutely no water.

 

First, the VAST PREPONDERANCE of spren in the physical realm are like fish; utterly mindless. It's like worrying that a woman is going to resort to slavery because she trains racehorses.

Right.  So, let's say that you go fishing in a lake every day in order to feed your family.  Nothing wrong with that.  You've never caught a sapient fish before, and they provide sustenance that is necessary (or at least damned convenient) for survival.  On your 7,572th fish caught, are you going to notice that it's different than the others and wonder if it's sapient?  Or are you going to wonder about what makes it different and how it tastes?  Although it might make sense that, if Jasnah were actually that worried/concerned, she should probably let people know there are sapient spren to avoid because of said sapiency--with Alethi culture of being more than okay with slavery of sapients, fear that this would lead to deliberate search for these sapient spren seems reasonable. 

 

 

 

Second, we have no reason to assume spren are harmed in the trapping. When you light a fire, flamespren appear. Are they trapped? Do they hate it? Why would being in a gem be any worse? They are provided with a lot of Stormlight, and we know things in the cognitive realm LOVE stormlight.

I also love fire.  I love being near it, and can stand entranced and mesmerized by even small flames for minutes, if not hours, blind to the world.  For some reason, I don't love being in a cage.  And if you put me in a cage, that also happened to have some fire, when I finally stopped staring at it, I'd be pissed.  Even if all of my needs were met and cared for.  Have you ever heard of the term 'gilded cage'?  A prison is still a prison.  And, while this is absolutely fine for the vast majority of the spren (so far as we can tell), it's not at all for the rest.  Further, we know basically nothing about how the spren are captured.  From WoK, we know that the flame spren experienced great distress after it had been measured and could no longer freely change shape.  Is this a necessary step?  If so, would you then consider this to be 'harm' in the trapping?  We simply just don't know.

 

 

 

Worrying that Syl is going to end up stuck in a fabrial is like an alien coming to this planet, and worrying I'm going to be tested on in a lab when he hears that it happens to mice. But you're both mammals! There's nothing stopping the scientists from picking you instead of a mouse!

If said alien isn't capable of effective communication, it had damnation well better be concerned about ending up being test on in a lab.  That's how we've learned all that we know about biology, death, etc.  And some people have done so in very, very moral and appropriate ways--and others, within our own lifetime, have had zero compunction with infecting fellow humans with disease or deliberately withholding cures simply based on the color of their skin.  

 

The chances, odds, etc. are definitely minor.  But are they high enough to cause distance between Jasnah and Navani?  I'd say definitely plausible.

[Oudeis he/him]

Possibly valid concerns. I personally feel like it's a stretch to think this is what caused their rift, since much more obvious examples abound, but we know relatively little about them. It could totally be a factor!

[maxal she/her]

One of the reasons I believe a potential Nahel bond did not cause the rift between Jasnah and her mother is the timeline... Navani stated Jasnah grew cold on her during her teenage years, which means 20 years ago. All the spren bonds we have seen started, to the farthest, 6 years ago. To think a spren may have been looking for a knight 20 years ago is a stretch which contradicts our current knowledge: sprens are starting to bond again because of the incoming Desolation. Signs started to appear, to the farthest 10 years ago. Jasnah only started to notice Ivory's presence 6 years ago: I seriously doubt she has been bonding him for 15 years prior to that....

 

I thus think it heavily unlikely Jasnah bonded Ivory during her teen years. The most plausible answer is she started bonding him shortly before Galivar died which implies the event leading her to be a recipient for the bond occurred before.

 

As for Navani and scholarship... She states she is unable, right now, to make diagrams as evolve as their, but she does also state she may have been able to, in another life. In other words, Navani did have potential, once upon a time, but it was left unused. She does seem bitter about it which may have led to the break-up with Jasnah who, as a teenager, would have start to notice these things.

 

These quotes do not disapprove my theory.

[02ranger he/him]

One of the reasons I believe a potential Nahel bond did not cause the rift between Jasnah and her mother is the timeline... Navani stated Jasnah grew cold on her during her teenage years, which means 20 years ago. All the spren bonds we have seen started, to the farthest, 6 years ago. To think a spren may have been looking for a knight 20 years ago is a stretch which contradicts our current knowledge: sprens are starting to bond again because of the incoming Desolation. Signs started to appear, to the farthest 10 years ago. Jasnah only started to notice Ivory's presence 6 years ago: I seriously doubt she has been bonding him for 15 years prior to that....

I thus think it heavily unlikely Jasnah bonded Ivory during her teen years. The most plausible answer is she started bonding him shortly before Galivar died which implies the event leading her to be a recipient for the bond occurred before.

As for Navani and scholarship... She states she is unable, right now, to make diagrams as evolve as their, but she does also state she may have been able to, in another life. In other words, Navani did have potential, once upon a time, but it was left unused. She does seem bitter about it which may have led to the break-up with Jasnah who, as a teenager, would have start to notice these things.

These quotes do not disapprove my theory.

Is there any evidence, WoB or in the books, that says the bond HAS to start or spren have to appear after the breaking event? I posted last night a theory, in this thread, that the spren are attracted to their people before the person is broken and have a little evidence of that in Dalinar and Jasnah, possibly Shallan as well. It would explain why Jasnah apparently had just started experiencing effects from Ivory's presence in the prologue but there is little evidence of her being already broken.

[Ansalem]

Is there any evidence, WoB or in the books, that says the bond HAS to start or spren have to appear after the breaking event? I posted last night a theory, in this thread, that the spren are attracted to their people before the person is broken and have a little evidence of that in Dalinar and Jasnah, possibly Shallan as well. It would explain why Jasnah apparently had just started experiencing effects from Ivory's presence in the prologue but there is little evidence of her being already broken.

 

I would say we have evidence of it with Kaladin as well, although maybe not as strong. But Syl tells him that she was looking for him when he was in Hearthstone and that was before Roshone had even arrived so none of the things that eventually led to his breaking had happened yet. (When he asked her if she was with him when he first picked up the quarterstaff) Of course it might be that she wasn't looking for Kaladin specifically but just looking for anyone to fit the requirements.

[maxal she/her]

Is there any evidence, WoB or in the books, that says the bond HAS to start or spren have to appear after the breaking event? I posted last night a theory, in this thread, that the spren are attracted to their people before the person is broken and have a little evidence of that in Dalinar and Jasnah, possibly Shallan as well. It would explain why Jasnah apparently had just started experiencing effects from Ivory's presence in the prologue but there is little evidence of her being already broken.

 

The evidence is inconclusive. What we do know if the spren needs cracks within the soul in order to kick-start the bonding process. It would thus makes sense the bonding cannot truly start until these cracks appear. Please note the use of word "cracks" as opposed to "breaking" as a complete breakdown does not seem to be a requirement. Whereas it is entirely possible sprens may have looked at potential knights with intact souls, the bonding can't happen until the cracks occur. Syl may have very well "spotted" Kaladin while he was still in Heartstnone, but she did not start bonding him until after Tien's death and without a bond, no stormlight enhancement and no surges.

 

In the specific case of Jasnah, since her "bond" was formed enough to drag her into Shadesmar, I have to assume she was not merely being trailed by Ivory, she was actively bonding him: in the same way Kaladin was bonding Syl while being with the slavers. Based on these clues, I am assuming her "breaking event" occurred before her father's death.

 

The same goes for Shallan. 

 

As I said, the evidence is not entirely convincing or complete, but there is enough for me to be reasonably sure Jasnah's "cracks" were not caused by Galivar's death.

[mirahound she/her]

I just reread the Jasnah WoR prologue, and I actually think she did break when her father died. She was obviously hurt by it and didn't seem broken to me before, although I know that's not concrete. I know the biggest argument against this is the belief she had already bonded Ivory, but this was clearly the first time she'd visited Shadesmar and the first time she saw the spren, but not the first time her shadow started acting up. The problem with that is she visited Shadesmar just before Gavilar's death, not after. But I'm wondering if the spren are attracted to their people before they're broken. Maybe they're there when the person breaks, ready to bond, and that's how Jasnah visited Shadesmar when she did. This doesn't seem to hold true for Kaladin but there is evidence that Shallan, Jasnah, and Dalinar either had experiences with their spren before breaking or exhibited symptoms of the bond before they were clearly bonded.

Shallan had access to Pattern at a very young age and I "think" the thing that broke her was accomplished with Pattern, but that may not hold true. I don't remember the sequence of events that well.

Jasnah visited Shadesmar before breaking, "if" I end up being right. That ones a big if.

Dalinar experienced quite a few symptoms of the bond before bonding the Stormfather, such as aversion to Blades and using Stormlight to heal during battle before bonding the Stormfather, and one post said losing the Thrill was a symptom of that as well. Dalinar is my strongest example for this theory.

This is only a sort of half theory right now. I wanted to post my thoughts while they're fresh so I don't forget. Any thoughts in support or against?

These are actually a few really good points I hadn't considered before. After all, we saw in one of Kaladin's flashbacks that Syl was hanging around before Kaladin was made a slave, even if she was still acting like a windspren at the time. I do still wonder if characters like Shallan and Jasnah would have had to have a stronger bond than spren just hanging around would provide, though. Then again, we don't know too much about their orders at the moment, so maybe I'm wrong.

[02ranger he/him]

The evidence is inconclusive. What we do know if the spren needs cracks within the soul in order to kick-start the bonding process. It would thus makes sense the bonding cannot truly start until these cracks appear. Please note the use of word "cracks" as opposed to "breaking" as a complete breakdown does not seem to be a requirement. Whereas it is entirely possible sprens may have looked at potential knights with intact souls, the bonding can't happen until the cracks occur. Syl may have very well "spotted" Kaladin while he was still in Heartstnone, but she did not start bonding him until after Tien's death and without a bond, no stormlight enhancement and no surges.

 

In the specific case of Jasnah, since her "bond" was formed enough to drag her into Shadesmar, I have to assume she was not merely being trailed by Ivory, she was actively bonding him: in the same way Kaladin was bonding Syl while being with the slavers. Based on these clues, I am assuming her "breaking event" occurred before her father's death.

 

The same goes for Shallan. 

 

As I said, the evidence is not entirely convincing or complete, but there is enough for me to be reasonably sure Jasnah's "cracks" were not caused by Galivar's death.

 

What about Dalinar? He showed signs of using stormlight unconsciously before he bonded the Stormfather. As for Jasnah, when I read the prologue again I just did not see anything to indicate she was broken yet, but I know that's far from conclusive. As for Shallan, didn't she have access to Pattern from a very young age? IIRC, the reason her mother tried to kill her was that she was doing "unnatural" things, things relating to the Heralds. But wasn't her breaking event supposed to be when her mother died? It just seems like we've got two clear examples of surgebinding before the person breaks or bonds, one example of somebody I think is whole being trailed by her future spren, and one who was fully broken to pieces before his spren appeared. Seems inconclusive at best, which I guess is what you said. lol

 

These are actually a few really good points I hadn't considered before. After all, we saw in one of Kaladin's flashbacks that Syl was hanging around before Kaladin was made a slave, even if she was still acting like a windspren at the time. I do still wonder if characters like Shallan and Jasnah would have had to have a stronger bond than spren just hanging around would provide, though. Then again, we don't know too much about their orders at the moment, so maybe I'm wrong.

Actually I think Kaladin is a clear example of breaking then the spren shows up. Pretty much everybody agrees his breaking point was when Tien died and that was years before Syl ever appeared. I think everything that happened as a slave was just the pieces getting stomped, so to speak. He was definitely broken by Tien's death.

[maxal she/her]

 

What about Dalinar? He showed signs of using stormlight unconsciously before he bonded the Stormfather. As for Jasnah, when I read the prologue again I just did not see anything to indicate she was broken yet, but I know that's far from conclusive. As for Shallan, didn't she have access to Pattern from a very young age? IIRC, the reason her mother tried to kill her was that she was doing "unnatural" things, things relating to the Heralds. But wasn't her breaking event supposed to be when her mother died? It just seems like we've got two clear examples of surgebinding before the person breaks or bonds, one example of somebody I think is whole being trailed by her future spren, and one who was fully broken to pieces before his spren appeared. Seems inconclusive at best, which I guess is what you said. lol

 

Actually, clues indicate Dalinar has been bonding the Stormfather for several years: he just has not said the oaths yet. There seem to be phases in the Nahel bond process. The first phase is went the bond is early. The knight does have the requisite cracks and the spren moves in, but he is not aware of the process. In this phase, Radiants seem to be able to draw on stormlight, though not consciously and are able to access to a lesser form of their surges. Dalinar has been unconsciously drawing on stormlight for years and Kaladin was able to draw arrows away from him and suck in stormlight before he said the first oath.... This lingering period between the bonding and the first oath can last a few years as we saw with most of our Radiants.

 

However, it is clear Dalinar started bonding the Stormfather sometimes after Galivar's death and present time. Again, bonding occur before oaths are said.

 

Jasnah is another example and I do agree she does not sound "broken", but "broken" is not a requirement. "Crack in the soul" is. At that point in time, we have seen so little of Jasnah it is hard to extrapolate how she may have cracked, but I doubt it is linked to Galivar's death as it happened after the bond formed.

 

Shallan bonded Pattern as a young child, so surely something happened. We just did not see it yet. Killing her mother is what nearly killed her bond, not what kick-started it.