Lin Davar (Spoilers aplenty)

[mirahound]

So, um, is it just me, or did Shallan's father seem pretty messed up even before he took the fall for her? 'Cause, I don't know about you guys, but to me it doesn't seem like normal behavior to just kinda pick your daughter up and sing her a lullaby after she just stabbed your wife, even if said wife was trying to kill her first. I don't know, something about their whole relationship seems a little off to me, right from the very beginning.

[MitchBade]

Perhaps, but at the same time, what are you supposed to do in that situation? Nothing he could have done would have made it better. He was probably wracked with pain and grief himself at the time.

[Oudeis]

Yeah I'm pretty sure he was acting entirely appropriately for someone going through a psychotic break, which I would be if my daughter had just killed her own mother and friend who, moments ago, had been trying to kill the child. The moment when he's on the ground, trying desperately to get away from the man who has him gripped, watching his own wife stride across the room to slay their child, feeling totally helpless in the face of it, is pretty much the kicker to me. If he'd started acting totally normally and calmly right afterwards and behaving rationally, I would be significantly more concerned. As it is, his entire brain has shut down, refusing to process the information, and the one and only thing that matters to him at this moment is that his daughter has just been traumatized and he just wants to do something to make her feel a little bit better.

[Numuhuku]

Pray tell, what's a *normal* reaction to a situation like that supposed to be?

 

 

Do keep in mind that Lin had just killed a man in a violent bare handed struggle in order to protect his daughter. The guy was running purely off parental instincts at that point. It doesn't seem remotely odd that when faced with the aftermath of such a horrible event, he'd hyper focus on trying to comfort his traumatized daughter. 

 

Heck. It's almost as much for his benefit as Shallan's. If he focuses entirely on Shallan, he doesn't need to think about what his wife tried to do.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Numuhuku

[Arondell]

Actually when Shallan speaks her third truth it is strongly implied that it was Shallan that killed both her mother and the man she was with.  Though I agree with the sentiment that both Lin and Shallan were basically suffering from traumatic information overload.  Normal reactions just aren't under those circumstances.

 

 

Her mother’s friend lay on the floor, bleeding from the arm, though that wound hadn’t killed him. Shallan walked to the other corpse, the one facedown in the beautiful dress of blue and gold.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1059). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Her father barging in. Mother’s friend with a knife, the two struggling, the friend getting cut in the arm. Blood spilled on the carpet. The friend had won that fight, eventually holding Father down, pinned on the ground.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1059). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[lidrevan]

sigh.... Lin is radiant bound  and we were all fooled. He is broke and came back to life.  Good game B.S.

[Numuhuku]

Actually when Shallan speaks her third truth it is strongly implied that it was Shallan that killed both her mother and the man she was with.  Though I agree with the sentiment that both Lin and Shallan were basically suffering from traumatic information overload.  Normal reactions just aren't under those circumstances.

Huh. Shallan walking from the man to her mother DOES somewhat imply something like that. Guess I hadn't noticed that detail. Had imagined that maybe the guy was distracted when Shallan killed her mother, allowing Lin to get out from under him.

 

Still. Point remains. Lin would have easily been in a desperate state of mind, where he'd have been focused on nothing but his daughter. 

[mirahound]

Pray tell, what's a *normal* reaction to a situation like that supposed to be?

 

 

Do keep in mind that Lin had just killed a man in a violent bare handed struggle in order to protect his daughter. The guy was running purely off parental instincts at that point. It doesn't seem remotely odd that when faced with the aftermath of such a horrible event, he'd hyper focus on trying to comfort his traumatized daughter. 

 

Heck. It's almost as much for his benefit as Shallan's. If he focuses entirely on Shallan, he doesn't need to think about what his wife tried to do.

I guess I just expected more grief. Some sort of outward acknowledgement that this was a terrible thing to happen. As it is, I think associating a lullaby with the act of killing her mother probably did more damage to Shallan's psyche than actually being upset would have. Honestly, the fact that he could just shut his emotions off like that freaks me out a little, and it makes me wonder if there was more happening in that household even before Shallan started showing signs of being a Surgebinder.

[Arondell]

I guess I just expected more grief. Some sort of outward acknowledgement that this was a terrible thing to happen. As it is, I think associating a lullaby with the act of killing her mother probably did more damage to Shallan's psyche than actually being upset would have. Honestly, the fact that he could just shut his emotions off like that freaks me out a little, and it makes me wonder if there was more happening in that household even before Shallan started showing signs of being a Surgebinder.

 

Actually I'm positive something was happening.  Recall that Pattern was attracted to Shallan before all this went down.  At the moment I'm wondering if Shallan was actually a member of the Davar household.

 

 

“Shallan Davar?” he asked. “Um . . .” Was she? Oh, right.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 440). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

“Mmm. Yes, and you are a lie. A powerful one.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 888). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

“Veil is the false identity, Mraize,” Shallan said. “I am me.” He inspected her. “I think not.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1055). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

It is only a strong suspicion at this point.  Though one with good cause I feel.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Arondell

[Numuhuku]

 

I guess I just expected more grief. Some sort of outward acknowledgement that this was a terrible thing to happen. As it is, I think associating a lullaby with the act of killing her mother probably did more damage to Shallan's psyche than actually being upset would have. Honestly, the fact that he could just shut his emotions off like that freaks me out a little, and it makes me wonder if there was more happening in that household even before Shallan started showing signs of being a Surgebinder.

How can Lin grieve for his wife and comfort his daughter at the same time? A husband wouldn't forgive someone for killing his wife. Yet a father would do anything to protect his daughter. Both self-images are central to the patriarch of a noble family, and yet this incident put them in conflict with each other. It shouldn't be surprising that the strain from this caused a psychological break on Lin's part. This is an incredibly disturbing thing to happen to someone.

 

 

Actually I'm positive something was happening.  Recall that Pattern was attracted to Shallan before all this went down.  At the moment I'm wondering if Shallan was actually a member of the Davar household.

 

It is only a strong suspicion at this point.  Though one with good cause I feel.

 

Interesting theory. Might be a bit tricky to work with though. The Davar's are a notably pure Vedan blood line, and it's expressed in all their appearances (they're paler and more redheaded than most Vedans). If Shallan is illegitimate, it seems like her mother would have had to have an affair with another particularly pure blooded Vedan.

 

Also not sure how meaningful a revelation like that would be. Both the Davar parents are dead. Shallan's status as a radiant is MUCH more important to the Kholin's than her being a legitimate child of some defunct Vedan house. And her surviving brothers are too emotionally indebted and attached to her to care much that she's only a half sister.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Numuhuku

[Arondell]

 

 

Also not sure how meaningful a revelation like that would be. Both the Davar parents are dead. Shallan's status as a radiant is MUCH more important to the Kholin's than her being a legitimate child of some defunct Vedan house. And her surviving brothers are too emotionally indebted and attached to her to care much that she's only a half sister.

 

 

It wouldn't really be about how great a revelation it would be to anybody but Shallan.  Particularly since it involves issues of family which seem to matter a great deal to her.  Yeah its tricky.  We simply don't have enough information yet.  I'm certainly not going to go to any effort trying to convince anybody.  I just think it is an interesting possibility at this point.

[mirahound]

Actually I'm positive something was happening.  Recall that Pattern was attracted to Shallan before all this went down.  At the moment I'm wondering if Shallan was actually a member of the Davar household.

 

 

 

 

It is only a strong suspicion at this point.  Though one with good cause I feel.

I will say, considering how Lin treated her, I think Shallan is definitely of house Davar. Being only half-legitimate, however, would explain why her mother would be so willing to sacrifice her. I'm not sure how I would feel about that, since it would, to a slight degree, lessen the horror of what her mother tried to do, but it would explain a lot of the trouble in the Davar household.

[Numuhuku]

I will say, considering how Lin treated her, I think Shallan is definitely of house Davar. Being only half-legitimate, however, would explain why her mother would be so willing to sacrifice her. I'm not sure how I would feel about that, since it would, to a slight degree, lessen the horror of what her mother tried to do, but it would explain a lot of the trouble in the Davar household.

Wouldn't the illegitimacy of a child matter less to the mother in that situation? Whole pregnancy hormonal bonding and knowing it's still her child and all that. Seems that would have been very little of a motivation to off Shallan, especially if Lin was adamant in thinking and acting like she was hid daughter. Seems like if there was a motivation for lin to kill her own flesh and blood, it'd have more to do with her association with the Ghost Bloods.

 

 

It is somewhat peculiar though, that Lin's association with the Ghost Bloods would drive her to kill her own child, yet the Ghost Bloods were also willing to associate with Shallan as a grown Surge binder.

[ARARITA]

sometimes it's the little things we gloss over -

I noticed it while taking notes. My mind would vaguely register something strange or interesting or off   and   I would let it go...

..then I'd have to backtrack and write it down

 

upvote for Arondell -- not sure what it means but I see it

[maxal]

 

Wouldn't the illegitimacy of a child matter less to the mother in that situation? Whole pregnancy hormonal bonding and knowing it's still her child and all that. 

 

 

It wouldn't matter one bit. A child is a child and most women develop a bond with the child before it is born. It is why miscarriages, even early ones, are so hard on women: they have the hormonal reaction telling them they are going to have a child and then it is gone. So no, illegitimacy would not explain why Shallan's mother was willing to kill her only daughter. In any advent, I doubt she is illegitimate: too many resemblance between her and her brothers. They all look the same.

 

Most cases of mothers murdering their children are desperate, depressed women who after a break-up decides to take their children with them to death such as to deprive their former spouse from having them. Imo, fathers murder their children for the same reason. 

 

I haven't seen that pattern within the Davar's household... so I am leaning towards the mother being completely brainwashed by a sect having convinced her she needed to kill her daughter for the greater good of humanity. She can't have been a sane and healthy person. She just can't.

 

This therefore implies she was not sane before, which may explain how little Shallan cracked enough to have a Nahel bond: she invented a life where her family was happy, even as a young child. She lived in her imaginary world which was so rich it attracted a Cryptic.

[Numuhuku]

 So no, illegitimacy would not explain why Shallan's mother was willing to kill her only daughter. In any advent, I doubt she is illegitimate: too many resemblance between her and her brothers. They all look the same.

Maybe if it was some extreme situation where the mother felt the father might find out about the illegitimacy, and felt she needed to take *desperate* measures to preserve the family as a whole. I could see *some* unbalanced individuals doing something like this. But that doesn't fit.The men in the Davar family loved and accepted Shallan, to the point of being willing to violently protect her. It doesn't seem a plausible motive.

 

And as you said. Family resemblance is another key issues. Especially since genes for hair color on Roshar are almost never recessive.  If you inherit genes for multiple hair colors, they almost always manifest in some way. Unless Brightness Davar had an affair with someone who had pure red Vedan hair, Just like Lin, it seems like it'd be very unlikely for the infidelity to go unnoticed.

[maxal]

Maybe if it was some extreme situation where the mother felt the father might find out about the illegitimacy, and felt she needed to take *desperate* measures to preserve the family as a whole. I could see *some* unbalanced individuals doing something like this. But that doesn't fit.The men in the Davar family loved and accepted Shallan, to the point of being willing to violently protect her. It doesn't seem a plausible motive.

 

And as you said. Family resemblance is another key issues. Especially since genes for hair color on Roshar are almost never recessive.  If you inherit genes for multiple hair colors, they almost always manifest in some way. Unless Brightness Davar had an affair with someone who had pure red Vedan hair, Just like Lin, it seems like it'd be very unlikely for the infidelity to go unnoticed.

 

Especially since the age difference between Shallan and the twins imply they were babies when she got pregnant. A woman with two young babies and two older young children don't usually have time to take a lover.... However, this makes me wonder about how lighteyed women raised their children... to get pregnant this quickly imply the children most likely got a wet nurse. They don't have milk on Roshar, they have no other alternative.. but if they did, then death rate of young children would be astronomic.

 

I would be interested to see how Rosharian behave with their young children. I hope to see some of it in future books.

 

Though I understand I probably am one of the only one to wonder about these things 

[Numuhuku]

They don't have milk on Roshar, they have no other alternative.. but if they did, then death rate of young children would be astronomic.

Well they do have horses.   Nothing stopping you from getting milk from those, aside from the general rarity of horses on Eastern Roshar. I wouldn't expect that'd be something anyone but more wealthy Light eyes would consume, but it IS an alternative. 

 

I'd expect the only people on Roshar to have dairy as a regular part of their diet would be the Shin.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Numuhuku

[WeiryWriter]

Especially since the age difference between Shallan and the twins imply they were babies when she got pregnant. A woman with two young babies and two older young children don't usually have time to take a lover.... However, this makes me wonder about how lighteyed women raised their children... to get pregnant this quickly imply the children most likely got a wet nurse. They don't have milk on Roshar, they have no other alternative.. but if they did, then death rate of young children would be astronomic.

 

I would be interested to see how Rosharian behave with their young children. I hope to see some of it in future books.

 

Though I understand I probably am one of the only one to wonder about these things 

 

Actually they do get milk from pigs (but they don't really have an extensive array of dairy products like cheese/butter).

[maxal]

Actually they do get milk from pigs (but they don't really have an extensive array of dairy products like cheese/butter).

 

Yeah but the modern human being I am has some issues imagining this...   Anyway, without pasteurization, feeding the kids with milk directly from pasteurization would yield a high mortality rate due to sickness such as diarrhea. Feeding the kids by natural means would normally end up in larger age difference between the siblings which is effectively what we see among Alethi. It makes me wonder about Veden because the small age difference between children kind of implies other feeding methods were used... and since Shallan's family was not wealthy, a wet nurse seams not likely... but alternative feeding methods would yield in an increased death rate.

 

So I wonder. Simple curiosity.

[+Wax]

It wouldn't matter one bit. A child is a child and most women develop a bond with the child before it is born. It is why miscarriages, even early ones, are so hard on women: they have the hormonal reaction telling them they are going to have a child and then it is gone. So no, illegitimacy would not explain why Shallan's mother was willing to kill her only daughter. In any advent, I doubt she is illegitimate: too many resemblance between her and her brothers. They all look the same.

Most cases of mothers murdering their children are desperate, depressed women who after a break-up decides to take their children with them to death such as to deprive their former spouse from having them. Imo, fathers murder their children for the same reason.

I haven't seen that pattern within the Davar's household... so I am leaning towards the mother being completely brainwashed by a sect having convinced her she needed to kill her daughter for the greater good of humanity. She can't have been a sane and healthy person. She just can't.

This therefore implies she was not sane before, which may explain how little Shallan cracked enough to have a Nahel bond: she invented a life where her family was happy, even as a young child. She lived in her imaginary world which was so rich it attracted a Cryptic.

Interesting that you mention a sect. Hallaran also tried to join skybreakers apparently.

I wonder if Shallan's mother was part of the skybreakers... And tried to kill Shallan to avoid a desolation.

Edited August 16, 2015 by axcellence

[mortalcoil]

Interesting that you mention a sect. Hallaran also tried to join skybreakers apparently.

I wonder if Shallan's mother was part of the skybreakers... And tried to kill Shallan to avoid a desolation.

This is my thoughts, I know that at least one of the wiki's represents Shallan's mother as being a Ghostblood. But I wonder if the current "skybreakers" are really more about putting down budding surgebinders when they can find them. and if this is what happened with Shallan, and Helaran had no idea what she was as he may of tried to stop his mother at the time rather than support the removal of a surgebinder.

[vegasdev]

"Mother died in that rock-string contraption," Teft said. "She really believed, Sig. That she had it in her, you know? The powers? That if she were about to die, they'd come out of her, and she'd save herself..."

 

 

Those sects be crazy

[gbazz4]

So i haven't ready WOR in a year and a half, so i might be way off. But people are speculating Shallan could possibly be illegitimate. But everyone is asking about the mother. Could it not be possible that her Father was the one who had an affair and Shallan was of a different mother? Would that not play into how her mother tried to kill her, why her father treats her a bit different, and would also account for the closeness in age between her and other siblings?

 

Just thought i would throw it out there. I am not sure there is anything to back it up since i haven't read the book in a while, but given how people were talking it seemed on the surface there could be a different approach to how people should look at the situation.

[Awesomness]

Actually I'm positive something was happening.  Recall that Pattern was attracted to Shallan before all this went down.  At the moment I'm wondering if Shallan was actually a member of the Davar household.

 

 

 

 

It is only a strong suspicion at this point.  Though one with good cause I feel.

 

I´m sure you´re into something here.

Shallan is a very unreliable narrator, so I woudn´b be surprised if some weird fact about house Davar shows up seemengly out of nowhere in the next books.