Shardlet he/him Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 The Jasnah quote is definitely very suggestive. But many of us have been quick to discount Jasnah's belief that the parshmen are are the voidbringers saying that while she believes this she is incorrect. And that is about a subject which is Jasnah's prime focus of study. Also you and others have said that you believe that the Cryptics live in Shadesmar, but I do not understand why. Clearly they can grant access to Shadesmar, but we have never seen a Cryptic in Shadesmar. I am not saying this to be hostile. I just don't understand why you believe this but I would like to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 I suspect the Cryptics live in Shadesmar based on very flimsy evidence: Jasnah's comment in the above quote hints that she has previously seen Cryptics during her exploration of Shadesmar, or at least would expect to find them there. There are also some interesting tidbits that make me suspicious of a link between cryptics and the cognitive realm: It communicates directly into Shallan's mind rather than talking aloud like Syl does. It strengthens the bond with Truth, Secrets and Knowledge, all of which are purely intellectual in nature. Syl's bond in contrast is strengthened by Honorable Physical Actions. It is completely invisible at all times even to Shallan implying a more intangible nature compared with Syl who always is visible to Kaladin and sometimes visible to everyone. It is somehow able to provide access to Shadesmar. I see these differences as evidence that Cryptics are more cognitive in nature, and would assume the Surges associate with them would also be cognitively based. Memory and access to Shadesmar both have strong ties to the cognitive and seem to fit well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedMisting she/her Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 At the moment I'm not 100% convinced that Shallan has formed a Nahel bond. We know that Szeth is somehow capable of surgebinding without having bonded with a spren. Also, Brandon has never confirmed that the Cryptics are in fact spren. Yes, I know Jasnah believes them to be spren, but I've read enough Steven Erikson books to be familiar with characters who state something as fact turning out to be dead wrong. Brandon himself has never confirmed this, and has been very reluctant to give any hint about it. He refers to them as Cryptics and not Truthspren, as some readers have referred to them. So I'm really withholding judgement on this for the moment, but I'm looking forward to Words of Radiance which will hopefully give us more on Shallan, what her powers are and whether she is on the path to becoming a KR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 One thing Brandon has repeatedly confirmed is that his in-world characters are fallible and often make incorrect assumptions. I can see lots of other possible explanations for Shallan's powers and indeed I was convinced for years that her Memory power was not a surge. She could be on the path to Voidbinderhood, KnightRadianthood, or something completely unrelated. From what I have read the main theories are: 1) Memory is a surge linked to a KR order (and by association a spren) 2) Memory is a gift from cultivation and not directly related to the KR orders 3) Shallan's powers come from the same place as Szeth's (presumed to be Odium related) 4) Memory is a Calling 5) Memory came from the Old Magic. 6) Memory is non-magical and just a very cool talent she has Knowing Brandon's track record the right answer is something we haven't yet fathomed. For now however we are left to use our limited information to see which option has the most evidence. We have gathered the following hints: - the word Cultivation is conveniently tossed into a description of her Memory power in action - Shallan is developing a bond (temporary or otherwise) with a creature associated with cognitive stuff like Truth, Secrets, Knowledge, and Sadesmar - this bond grows stronger when Shallan shares deep secrets about herself with the Cryptic - Jasnah hints that cryptics are associated with a Knight Radiant Spren-bond - there are two powers associated with each Order - Shallan has demonstrated two magical abilities: Soulcasting and Memory-Cultivation. So using a well known razor, I come up with the following conclusion: Shallan is bound to a Cultivationspren associated with an order of Knights Radiant that has access to the surges of Memory and Soulcasting. Are there holes in this theory? Sure, lots of them. But I don't see any other theories that have less holes. If Shallan suddenly develops a third magical power then we have some room to work with, but I feel it makes no sense to go looking for more complicated solutions when a simple one is dropped in your lap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysanja Posted July 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 if there is something like a truth spren it would be fitting for Szeth to have lost his. what happens when you loose youre spren bond? this could fit Szeth. maybe you keep the powers or some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedMisting she/her Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 @ Isomere, sorry I think my post wasn't clear enough. When I said Brandon hadn't confirmed this, I wasn't referring to the fallibility of his characters, but to the idea of the cryptics being spren. From what I've seen, he's hedged a bit on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 It occurred to me that maybe the Cyrptic/Creation Spren that Shallan sees are Scholar Spren. It would make sense why Jasnah and Shallan have both seen them,. It also falls in line why Shallan started seeing them after starting to study to be a scholar and being able to soulcast. The Parshendi, I think would also be intertested in these "Scholar spren" from the preview I read of the second book. That would come full circle rather nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Welcome Random. Just a couple of reminders, though. We know that Jasnah knows of the cryptics, but we do not yet know that she has seen them. Since the cryptic enabled Shallan to enter Shadesmar, and Jasnah can also enter Shadesmar, then I would suspect that she can see/interact with them. But we don't know that for sure yet. Also, Elhokar apparently can see them as well and it doesn't appear that he has a scholarly bone in his body. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysanja Posted August 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 we dont know much at all about Elhokar. more or less hes afraid of assasins. can fight with sword+plate (powerless) king easy to manipulate not much about things he does, or did in his youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) Welcome Random. Just a couple of reminders, though. We know that Jasnah knows of the cryptics, but we do not yet know that she has seen them. Since the cryptic enabled Shallan to enter Shadesmar, and Jasnah can also enter Shadesmar, then I would suspect that she can see/interact with them. But we don't know that for sure yet. Also, Elhokar apparently can see them as well and it doesn't appear that he has a scholarly bone in his body. Thanks and good point: one other thing occurs to me though concerning the genetics of the Alethi, since their hair takes on different traits at the same time, as with some lighteyes having blonde hair with sprinkles of black, and so on, I would think genetic aren't passed on in the same way as ours. Edited August 6, 2013 by Random 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 You know, to my knowledge, nobody has mentioned the quirkiness of the hair color. It is definitely not typical for the cosmere (in that we have not heard of it except on Roshar) and does not even appear typical for Roshar. I think there may be something to it of greater significance. It was certainly frequently mentioned throughout TWoK. I can't even begin to hypothesize a particular effect or indication of a trait. But, I have added this to my mental list of things to pay attention to during future rereads as well as in WoR and beyond. Good thought, Random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junior Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 You know, to my knowledge, nobody has mentioned the quirkiness of the hair color. It is definitely not typical for the cosmere (in that we have not heard of it except on Roshar) and does not even appear typical for Roshar. There's one other place in the Cosmere where we know that hair is important, though it's difficult to find a connection. The sign of the Royal House in Warbreaker is the ability to change hair color. iirc, at one point it's suggested that this is due to a Returned ancestor, indicating a connection to the local magic system. It's not clear how a Returned ancestor might affect the hair color of descendents, or that there's anything that might indicate a connection to Roshar's exotic hair colors. But it might be worth leaving a footnote in the Roshar file just in case it turns out that there really is a connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted August 7, 2013 Report Share Posted August 7, 2013 The Cryptic's repeated "What are you?" does seem odd. It could be confusion, as you say. Another possibility I see is that the Cryptic (with its cognitive focus) needs her cognitive identity, how she sees herself. When she states her feelings (afraid) and a hidden identity (murderer) it seems to be enough. The "What" could be the Cryptic's way of focusing on identity rather than what she knows, believes or has done. Syl is very different from the Cryptic. I assume that Jasnah is dealing with a different type of spren from either of the other two. On the model in my head, Jasnah's bond is established, so she doesn't need to reveal more of herself each time to soulcast. Venturing wildly afield, I see both of Shallan's divine attributes as cognitive (assuming Shash order). When I assume that Jasnah is in the Palah order, I see her divine attributes as cognitive (Learned) and spiritual (Giving), so I imagine her spren will be strongly cognitive like the Cryptics, but somehow not quite as cognitive and more spiritual. Jasnah's spren might have needed to bond with a somewhat different aspect of her. The Crytic (I still think Scholar) Spren might not have known or remembered much without the bond with Shallan, like Syl could not remember much until she took something from Kaladin and gave him the abilities of a Windrunner in turn. Maybe the Cryptic didn't know what was going on until Shallan gave it a truth (something a Scholar Spren would be interested in), and in turn the Spren gave Shallan the ability to Soulcast. The truth was powerful and in turn gave her a more powerful bond. Kaladin's powers came slower I would think because he wasn't trying to gain any ability. Syl just took what was there and gave more and more as Kaladin needed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted August 7, 2013 Report Share Posted August 7, 2013 I think it would be awesome if it is Shallan who finally takes out Szeth-son-son-Vallano, maybe saving Kaladin during an epic battle using her Soulcasting and Shardblade. Well, one can dream. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Posted August 9, 2013 Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 dited to add: Also, the fact that Elhokar had begun seeing cryptics has suggested to a few people that he might (somehow) also have begun bonding a spren. We just don't know enough. I wouldn't use it as a counter-argument against Shallan's bonding, though. Just a guess, but do you think that Elhokar can see the Cryptic spren, not because he's a soulcaster, but because he's potenially from another order? Sanderson was asked if other orders could see other spren and gave a RAFO answer, but it doesn't rule out the possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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