Wit's Story Parallels the Recreance

[Leuthie]

Quick and dirty (quoteless) OP to get discussion started. Post quotes later.

Wit/Hoid tells Kaladin a story. An explorer sails East (West?) Toward the source of the Storms. At the source he finds an island. Idyllic. Problem is they kill people for the darnedest reasons. They explain their actions by claiming their Emperor says it must be so. The explorer goes to find this emperor and discovers that he's been dead for quite a while. This knowledge causes such hysteria that the explorer must leave. He takes with him his guide on the island, who explains to him the whole mess.

Okay. Much speculation about what Hoid was trying to hint Kaladin about. My quick and dirty speculation:

-The Island is metaphorical. It represents a people who follow Honor, represented by the long dead emperor.

-The discovery and following hysteria represents the Recreance. The Lost Radiants discover that it wasn't Honor that set them on their present course since he's been dead a while without them knowing, so they disband, probably with much fighting.

-The explorer could be anyone, but might be Hoid on a previous visit to Roshar.

-The guide is a Herald, still hanging around after ending the Oathpact. Total speculation.

So what I'm saying is that Honor dies long before the Recreance. Odium takes advantage of his death to seed The Knights Radiant with bad juju that makes the world much dislike them. When someone finally discovers that Honor is dead (quite possibly a visiting Hoid lead by a Herald), the KR turn on each other and disband (The Recreance proper).

I'll head off one argument by pointing out that Dalinar's Honor vision of the Recreance was the most surreal of them not counting the one where Honor actually showed up. It ended with a KR talking to Dalinar in a way that really seemed like Honor answering his question. It took place at a fort that didn't exist (at least Dalinar can't find any mention of it ever existing). And the way the KR just ran up to a fort in force and dropped their stuff just doesn't jive with other descriptions of the Recreance.

In other words, the vision Honor gives Dalinar of the Recreance is one that Tanavast guessed at. While he says Cultivation is better at telling the future, he doesn't say that he can't do it. Honor was long dead during the Recreance.

[Meg]

Or that dead king had been Tanavast and when the sailor returned and told that story, the KR lost their believes (-> Recreance) and the people lost their believe giving room for the Hierocracy to develop. 

 

That said with a half-smile. 

 

I, personally, don't see that the Recreance-vision and also the Honor-vision are "more surreal" than the others. They all have sort of a "surreal" feeling, which fits with being visions. That Dalinar didn't know about that keep is insignificant (did he ever really search for clues about Feverstone Keep? I don't think so, IIRC he waits for Jasnah after asking Navani, who herself didn't know) . 

 

Furthermore you're implying that Honor/Tanavast died before the Last Desolation. But you're only "evidence" is that story Hoid told Kal. 

 

I read that story that it shows what might happen if people are too obedient. Blindly following any other person is, uhm, stupid and sometimes deadly. 

 

 

[Leuthie]

It's a bit too complicated a story with too many parallels to have such a simple moral lesson as its purpose. And such a straightforward purpose isn'tHoid's style.

And was the Recreance before the Last Desolation? I was postulating that Honor died before the Recreance.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Leuthie

[cem he/him]

It also parallels the modern Vorin Kingdoms. Or at least Alethkar.

 

Tanavast is dead, Honor is Splintered and the Heralds are deserters, if you will. But we see a lot of "you become soldiers so you can help the Heralds claim the Tranquilline Halls when you die" stuff thrown around to justify the constant infighting. Plus the whole lighteyes-darkeyes class system. Vorin people are doing an awful lot of bad stuff in the name of their dead god and absent Heralds.

[Meg]

“Derethil fought the Voidbringers during the days of the Heralds and Radiants,” Hoid said, eyes still closed, flute just below his lips, the song echoing in the chasm and seeming to accompany his words. “When there was finally peace, he found he was not content. TWoK Ch. 57

 

I read the emphasized part as being after the Last Desolation. 

[hoser he/him]

Leuthie, on 17 Jun 2013 - 10:37, said:

So what I'm saying is that Honor dies long before the Recreance.

Seems quite possible particularly without the word "long".

Leuthie, on 17 Jun 2013 - 10:37, said:

Odium takes advantage of his death to seed The Knights Radiant with bad juju that makes the world much dislike them. When someone finally discovers that Honor is dead (quite possibly a visiting Hoid lead by a Herald), the KR turn on each other and disband (The Recreance proper).

I'll head off one argument by pointing out that Dalinar's Honor vision of the Recreance was the most surreal of them not counting the one where Honor actually showed up. It ended with a KR talking to Dalinar in a way that really seemed like Honor answering his question.

Looking forward eagerly to evidence that much of the world hated them before the Recreance. The Recreance vision suggests otherwise, but you clearly don't accept that. There is that epigraph about the taxes through Urithiru, but the person being quoted seems like a real jerk.

Leuthie, on 17 Jun 2013 - 10:37, said:

It took place at a fort that didn't exist (at least Dalinar can't find any mention of it ever existing).

The fort would presumably not have been in Alethkar. After 3000 or so years, it could have been forgotten or not exist anymore. Not very strong evidence.

Leuthie, on 17 Jun 2013 - 10:37, said:

And the way the KR just ran up to a fort in force and dropped their stuff just doesn't jive with other descriptions of the Recreance.

Looking forward eagerly to quotes about the other inconsistent descriptions of the Recreance.

I like the theory, actually, and I appreciate your offering it. But without more evidence, it seems mostly speculation.

Edited June 17, 2013 by hoser

[Leuthie]

I'm not in a position to look for quotes, but PM just posted a relevant one in another thread.

“Urithiru was said to be the center of the Silver Kingdoms, a city that held ten thrones, one for each king. It was the most majestic, most amazing, most important city in all the world.”“Really? Why hadn’t I heard of it before?”“Because it was abandoned even before the [bold]Lost Radiants turned against mankind.[/bold] Most scholars consider it just a myth. The ardents refuse to speak of it, due to its association with the Radiants, and therefore with the first major failure of Vorinism. Much of what we know about the city comes from fragments of lost works quoted by classical scholars. Many of those classical works have, themselves, survived only in pieces. Indeed, the single complete work we have from early years is The Way of Kings, and that is only because of the Vanrial’s efforts.”

The bolded line is consistent with how many speak of he Radiants. No specifics are given, but "turn against mankind" is kind of strong if all the Radiants are accused of doing is putting their weapons down at the wrong time. They did something prior to the Recreance that made them hated but still needed. They put down their weapons for another reason which I'm guessing is discovery of the death of Honor and that they were tricked...consistent with the story given by Hoid to the first known new member of the Knights Radiant.

[Morsk he/him]

Wit's story fits Szeth perfectly, with him committing atrocities because he thinks he has to, when he almost certainly doesn't. (I don't think permanent death exists in the cosmere. Brandon likes writing corrupted religion as much as he likes writing benevolent religion, and "Murder or face annihilation!" sounds awfully suspicious of being one of the corrupted religions, not the legitimate ones.)

I could never understand why Wit bothered telling a story about Szeth to Kaladin though! That the story is really about the Radians fits better. But what if it's about both, and Szeth's enslavement to a corrupted honor code is similar to what happened to the Radiants?

[hoser he/him]

I'm not in a position to look for quotes, but PM just posted a relevant one in another thread.

The bolded line is consistent with how many speak of he Radiants. No specifics are given, but "turn against mankind" is kind of strong if all the Radiants are accused of doing is putting their weapons down at the wrong time. They did something prior to the Recreance that made them hated but still needed. They put down their weapons for another reason which I'm guessing is discovery of the death of Honor and that they were tricked...consistent with the story given by Hoid to the first known new member of the Knights Radiant.

It is an interesting quote.  Your interpretation certainly seems possible to me. 

I would like to politely beg to differ about what it proves.  All I get from "turn against mankind" is repetition of "betrayed mankind".  I see no indication that the hatred began before the Recreance.  Desertion ("putting down weapons at the wrong time") is a big deal in military terms. 

I do see support in this quote for another part of your theory.  Urithiru, which had been originally placed closer to Honor and may have been the hub of a set of Oathgates, was abandoned before the Recreance.  Was Urithiru abandoned because of Tanavast's death?  Did the Oathgates cease to function without an intact Honor?  Apparently it takes time to splinter a Shard. 

Consider the following timeline:

1. Tanavast dies
2. Radiants abandon Urithiru
3. Honor splintered
4. Recreance

This fits your theory well.  It also seems largely speculative to me without more support. 

 

As I said, I like your theory. I would like to espouse it if I could find more supporting evidence.  If there is none, it is still a fine theory.  Your post suggested that there is more evidence, which excited my curiosity, but perhaps I misunderstood.