Kadrok she/her Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Imagine my joy as, reading the Treatise Metallurgic (the section of the MAG detailing metals) some time ago, I discovered that Atium formed a kind of master-spike, one which could steal any power without degradation for the low low cost of an extra spirit point. I could use this to steal ANYTHING!!!Imagine my horror as, rereading the Treatise Metallurgic for the billionth time, I discovered that Atium only worked for Allomantic powers... "Depending on where the spike is driven in, it steals, stores, and transfers a single Allomantic Power — that of Atium or any other metal" (MAG 374). ... how disappointing. I suppose it makes sense. Atium is of Ruin, Preservation's opposite, and so to have the substance of his body by a focus for his enemy fits (if it must have limitations). To me this raises the question: What about Feruchemy? Hemalurgy can theoritically be used to steal any manifestation of investiture as BS has often hinted, but we know for a fact that it can steal both Allomancy and Feruchemy, so let's just roll with that for now - there's a master-spike for Allomancy, surely there's one for Feruchemy. Perhaps arbitrarily, given we know only 2 alloys for Atium, I would suggest that Malatium is that master-spike. This seems to make some sense, as Gold on it's own (the metal Atium is alloyed with to make Malatium) is the Hemalurgic spike for the Hybrid Feruchemical powers, and it's not difficult to imagine that Atium, carrying the master-spike trait, could merge with Gold, carrying the Feruchemical state, to make a Feruchemical master-spike. Indeed, Hybrid Feruchemy is a match for the grouping Allomancers call Temporal... Atium is kind of Temporal/Mental to match Lerasium being kind of Physical/Enhancement... I can see the "temporal feruchemy" Hemalurgic spike being combined with the Hemalurgic master metal to create the Feruchemy master-spike. Another point in favour of this is that Marsh was spiked for Feruchemical Atium... it would seem odd Ruin pulling out a whole new metal we hadn't seen before to accomplish this. Malatium being the Feruchemical Masterspike fits this well narratively. The other alloy for Atium, a fusion between Lerasium and Atium suggested in the Lerasium section of the MAG, would seem to make more sense given that feruchemy is the power of balance between Preservation and Ruin, but I am disinclined to suggest it as the Feruchemical master-spike, as I suspect that a spike composed of an alloy of two god metals would do something a tad more powerful than merely act as a wild-card for spiking one magic system. Indeed, perhaps a Lerasium/Atium alloy could function as a Master master-spike, allowing for any power to be stolen. This is of course, like the rest of this post, speculation.There is on flaw to all this I can think of: if Malatium is the Feruchemical master-spike, why is it not mentioned in the Treatise? Surely a tidbit like that couldn't spoil any significant plot developments. Edited June 6, 2013 by Kadrok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) That's not what my MAG says Regardless, I trust the WoB on this (wildcard, any other spike) over the adventure game. The game gets inquisitor spikes wrong, for instance. Edited June 6, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadrok she/her Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) That's not what my MAG says Regardless, I trust the WoB on this (wildcard, any other spike) over the adventure game. The game gets inquisitor spikes wrong, for instance. Page number please? Is that 374? Is yours an earlier version? Because mine marks it as a universal spike for Allomancy. How does it get Inquisitor spikes wrong? I heard that they changed something about the way Inquisitor spikes are done in the MAG at some point to bring them in line with the books, so perhaps the discrepancy is due to yours being an earlier version of the MAG. Edited June 6, 2013 by Kadrok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Page number please?372. I think you might have a different version, since malatium is on 374 for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadrok she/her Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 372. I think you might have a different version, since malatium is on 374 for me. Yep. And given what I said above I am inclined to think mine is the later version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 The MAG is wrong in this case, atium can be used to steal any trait. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Does your version list inquisitors as having a gold spike for feruchemical health instead of their canonical pewter? Mine does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadrok she/her Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Chaos2651 Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy. Brandon Sanderson Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here. Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically. Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well. As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood. But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time. Let's break this down: "That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically. Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers." Do you see that? He's talking about Allomantic Temporal powers... he then says it can be used to steal ANY of THE powers... any of which powers, the Allomantic ones, or the powers overall? This fits with the conversation being about Allomancy. "Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well." Granted, that is compelling. But using an alloy of Atium is still using Atium in a sense... the "right knowledge" could very well mean not just spike placement but alloying Atium correctly. I'll admit this isn't an ironclad argument, but nerfing Atium spikes to not steal Feruchemy hardly seems like a change that would improve the game, especially in the absence of an in-game "Feruchemy Masterspike". It's such an obscure nitpicky thing to be deliberately done, and add the fact that they have changed it before to bring it more in line with the books (as evidenced by the discrepancy between my and Phantom's versions of the MAG), it seems odd to have deliberately changed it to be inconsistent with the books without any conceivable gain game-play or story wise, especially considering how comprehensive the MAG is in every other area (for example, including rules for Feruchemical Nicrosil, and other poorly understood metals, some of which are pretty much unavailable until the Alloy of Law era). Does your version list inquisitors as having a gold spike for feruchemical health instead of their canonical pewter? Mine does. Yes. To be honest, I suspect Gold will wind up being the canonical one. Otherwise Pewter steals 8 different powers, which seems odd. And if they aren't spiked with Gold, how can the Inquisitors use their spikes as metalminds (given they are usually only spikes for Feru-Gold)? Furthermore that is a big divergence, and if they were going to diverge that much from the canon, why not just switch the Feruchemical effects of Brass and Electrum back so they make sense? Edited June 6, 2013 by Kadrok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Yes. To be honest, I suspect Gold will wind up being the canonical one. Otherwise Pewter steals 8 different powers, which seems odd. And if they aren't spiked with Gold, how can the Inquisitors use their spikes as metalminds (given they are usually only spikes for Feru-Gold)? Brandon doesn't like retcons (which is why the determination/warmth thing is still around), and he's already put pewter as healing spikes in several places in canon. And they just keep some gold around for a goldmind. Edited June 6, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadrok she/her Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Brandon doesn't like retcons, and he's already put pewter as healing spikes in several places in canon. And they just keep some gold around for a goldmind. I was kind of hoping you'd bust out that quote where Brandon says they use their spikes as metalminds since you're Captain Quote-a-zor. Now I'll have to go looking for it myself... *grumble* *grumble* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) I was kind of hoping you'd bust out that quote where Brandon says they use their spikes as metalminds since you're Captain Quote-a-zor. Now I'll have to go looking for it myself... *grumble* *grumble* He's said that they *can* use spikes as metalminds, but I don't remember any reference to them using them as healthminds. Marsh has tapped speed from a spikemind, yeah, but not health. HoA 42 It was harder than it seemed. He had to make sure to strike with the axe in ways that Penrod could block. Several times, he had to tap speed from one of his spikes—which doubled as a Feruchemical metalmind—to suddenly inch his axe in the right direction, lest he accidentally behead the king of Luthadel. HoA 36Spikes made from other metals steal Feruchemical abilities. For example, all of the original Inquisitors were given a pewter spike, which—after first being pounded through the body of a Feruchemist—gave the Inquisitor the ability to store up healing power. (Though they couldn't do so as quickly as a real Feruchemist, as per the law of Hemalurgic decay.) This, obviously, is where the Inquisitors got their infamous ability to recover from wounds quickly, and was also why they needed to rest so much. Edited June 6, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Yeah, pure Atium is the "Master master spike" and can steal any power (depending on the bind points used). I think I read somewhere that the Inquisitors didn't fully understand the Hemalurgic properties of Atium. Maybe they thought it was just for Allomantic powers, and perhaps the MAG rules simply reflect the Hemalurgic knowledge of the Steel Inquisition during the Final Empire. Anyway, that doesn't really disprove the theory that Malatium is a Feruchemy master spike, so it's still possible. But I don't think we have enough clues to decide yet. Personally, though, I kind of like this theory because of my own theory about gold. Edit: Alright, it looks like a full-blown discussion has taken place while I was typing this (God I'm slow!). The thing about Inquisitors and Atium was already mentioned, it appears. Sorry for this totally unnecessary post. Edited June 6, 2013 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadrok she/her Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Yeah, pure Atium is the "Master master spike" and can steal any power (depending on the bind points used). I think I read somewhere that the Inquisitors didn't fully understand the Hemalurgic properties of Atium. I'm pretty sure I just quoted where you probably read that. Also... my now the tables have turned! I'm you, and you're me! Maybe they thought it was just for Allomantic powers, and perhaps the MAG rules simply reflect the Hemalurgic knowledge of the Steel Inquisition during the Final Empire. The knowledge of the Steel Inquisition during the Final Empire was that it was the Temporal Spike only. MAG has it as the Allomancy Master-Spike. Anyway, that doesn't really disprove the theory that Malatium is the Feruchemy master spike, so it's still possible. But I don't think we have enough clues to decide yet. Personally, though, I kind of like this theory because of my own theory about gold. Another option (one which solves the problem of assigning properties to all the Atium alloys) is that Atium is the master-master-spike, and two of its allows steal Allomancy and Feruchemy (that is, the Allomancy master-spike is an atium alloy, as is the Feruchemy master-spike). However I think I have given sufficient reason to at least consider the possibility that Atium isn't the master-master-spike everyone thinks it is, and that the true master-master-spike is the Atium-Lerasium alloy. Edited June 6, 2013 by Kadrok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 I'm pretty sure I just quoted where you probably read that. Also... my now the tables have turned! I'm you, and you're me! The knowledge of the Steel Inquisition during the Final Empire was that it was the Temporal Spike only. MAG has it as the Allomancy Master-Spike. Another option (one which solves the problem of assigning properties to all the Atium alloys) is that Atium is the master-master-spike, and two of its allows steal Allomancy and Feruchemy (that is, the Allomancy master-spike is an atium alloy, as is the Feruchemy master-spike). However I think I have given sufficient reason to at least consider the possibility that Atium isn't the master-master-spike everyone thinks it is, and that the true master-master-spike is the Atium-Lerasium alloy. I would highly doubt that an atium-lerasium alloy would be better in hemalurgy then the undiluted essence of Ruin itself. I don't think you've argued sufficiently enough to convince me that "atium isn't the master-master-spike everyone thinks it is" The Brandon quote I linked to above proves that atium can steal anything not just allomancy. Brandon has said things in the MAG have been changed to promote a better gaming experience and this is one of those things. I would also doubt that Malatium would be the "feruchemy-master-spike." Why the atium-gold alloy and not any of the other metals that steal feruchemical powers? I would think the aforementioned atium-lerasium alloy would be a better fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) I'm pretty sure I just quoted where you probably read that. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. Someone interrupted me while I was typing that, so it took me a while to finish and I wasn't able to read the new posts in the meantime. I'm pretty sure Brandon would still want to assign properties to all Atium alloys. Yeah, I know it'll be hard, especially since Atium alloys would have to be more powerful than normal metals, but I think Brandon can pull it off. Perhaps some Atium alloys steal non-Scadrial powers (*evil laugh*). I agree with WeiryWriter that Lerasium-Atium can't be better than pure Atium in Hemalurgy. Here's my guess on what it might do: steal another person's age. For example, if you kill a 21-year old guy with a Lerasium-Atium spike and then spike yourself with it, you'll look like your 21-year-old self (or a bit older, depending on how much the spike has degraded). I would also doubt that Malatium would be the "feruchemy-master-spike." Why the atium-gold alloy and not any of the other metals that steal feruchemical powers? I would think the aforementioned atium-lerasium alloy would be a better fit. Well, okay, maybe another God metal would be a better fit. But I think, in that case, pure Lerasium should be the Feruchemy master spike. You're using Preservation's body in Ruin's system, so it's a balance of Ruin and Preservation just like Feruchemy is. Using Lerasium-Atium in Hemalurgy would still be more Ruin than Preservation overall. Or... I dunno, maybe you're right and Lerasium-Atium is the Feruchemy master spike, while Lerasium is the Allomancy master spike. *sigh* We just don't have enough clues, do we? Edited June 6, 2013 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni he/him Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 We don't. We do know that Hemalurgy can be used to steal anything encoded in soul, including Shardblades, for instance. Maybe some Atium alloys steal Health, making your healing speed 1.8 times faster, or longevity, making you age 1.8 times slower. The other Shardic powers, of course And atium can steal everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Oh! How about this: Atium = Steals any attribute in Cosmere (Rationale: WoB) Atium alloys = Steals Cosmere-wide attributes, depending on the metal alloyed with (Rationale: Atium alloys need to be awesome ) Malatium (Atium-Gold) = Steals any Hybrid power in Cosmere (arguably including Feruchemy itself, since it's a hybrid of Ruin and Preservation; Rationale: Gold steals Hybrid Feruchemical powers.) Atium-Aluminum = Steals any End-Positive/Enhancement power in Cosmere (arguably including Allomancy itself; Rationale: Aluminum steals Enhancement Allomantic powers) Lerasium = Steals Scadrian Hemalurgic bindpoints (changes a non-Scadrian's spiritweb to gain Hemalurgic bindpoints; Rationale: Lerasium is known to change the spiritual aspect of a person) Lerasium alloys = Same as Lerasium, except the bindpoints will only accept spikes made from the metal Lerasium was alloyed with. This creates "Hemmings". (Rationale: just mirroring the Allomantic effect of Lerasium alloys) Lerasium-Atium = Same as Lerasium, except the bindpoints will only accept Atium spikes afterwards (which is okay, since this is Atium we're talking about; it can steal anything). This creates an Atium "Hemming". (Rationale: just mirroring the Allomantic effect of Lerasium-Atium) Edited June 7, 2013 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Atium+Gold obviously steals the target's identity. Not like, mystical identity or anything, you just get their credit cards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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