Rating the metal arts

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Seeing the moons of Jupiter is not something that most want to do on a regular basis. You could do that by saving up for a few hours anyway. It's a fairly weak situation ability at best, and in game there's little reason to regularly be staring at the stars.

 

It was an example of 'crazy things you can do'.  Would you prefer 'able to hear the tumblers clicking in a safe two miles away and learn the combination' instead?  Or 'can identify everyone you've met yesterday by scent'.  Or 'know the exact location of every human inside a building, along with their general level of awareness by hearing their heartbeats'?

 

Having feruchemy and allomancy tin together is useful for the reason you describe, but you don't need to compound it to gain that benefit.

 

You could use flared tin and hearing tin minds together without compounding. And you'll be able to hear a lot with them working together.

Burning metalminds is probably better for getting super high levels of an ability than just storing and later tapping.  After all, retrieving from your metalminds gives you diminishing returns (because you have to expend more power to retrieve more). 

 

 

This is for the mistborn rpg. There aren't that many situations where you need to use flared tin and lots of feru tin together for a long period of time, enough that you'd need compounding.

Is it for the RPG?  The OP didn't say anything about that.

Regardless, if you're on a stakeout or spying on someone's private business, you may have to spend days or weeks finding the info you need. 

 

You can solve the issues of being a tin savant with tin, but you can also save it with pewter, or gold likely- the third column is about the benefits of compounding.

Not to the same extent.  Even with pewter, spook still had issues with extremes - he still used the blindfold to manage daylight, for instance.  Not sure how useful gold would be, either.

 

Having feruchemy and allomancy tin together is useful for the reason you describe, but you don't need to compound it to gain that benefit.

That's nitpicking.  You still have to be a compounder.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Nepene he/him]

It was an example of 'crazy things you can do'.  Would you prefer 'able to hear the tumblers clicking in a safe two miles away and learn the combination' instead?  Or 'can identify everyone you've met yesterday by scent'.  Or 'know the exact location of every human inside a building, along with their general level of awareness by hearing their heartbeats'?

 

I doubt being able to hear the tumblers clicking on a safe two miles away would be an especially good idea, since you take damage if your senses are too sensitive.

 

You can do the other two things with tin allo alone. With feru and allo tin you can probably do them quite easily.

 

Thinking about it, it might be useful as a sniper. Nighttime shots. You'd need to do a lot to need compounding though.

 

Burning metalminds is probably better for getting super high levels of an ability than just storing and later tapping.  After all, retrieving from your metalminds gives you diminishing returns (because you have to expend more power to retrieve more). 

 

The issue is more, how often do you need super high levels of tin? Above your already exceptionally high levels.

 

Is it for the RPG?  The OP didn't say anything about that.

Regardless, if you're on a stakeout or spying on someone's private business, you may have to spend days or weeks finding the info you need.

 

 

 

I would eventually like to plug these values into a Mistborn RPG, but I will need to redesign a decent amount of character creation before I get there.

 

I suppose it may be useful for a reporter or some such character as well.

 

Not to the same extent.  Even with pewter, spook still had issues with extremes - he still used the blindfold to manage daylight, for instance.  Not sure how useful gold would be, either.

 

 

That's nitpicking.  You still have to be a compounder.

 

The original post was assigning values to allomancy, feruchemy, and compounding. If you have feruchemy and allomancy you do get additional value from both powers and points. Almost any set gives you benefits if you combine them. I would prefer some power other than double tin if I had the choice, incidentally.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Nepene

[Phantom Monstrosity]

You can do the other two things with tin allo alone. With feru and allo tin you can probably do them quite easily.

Tin allomancy only goes up to hearing heartbeats from a few feet away on a still day. 

 

I doubt being able to hear the tumblers clicking on a safe two miles away would be an especially good idea, since you take damage if your senses are too sensitive.

 

Feruchemy generally does a better job of protecting you from the effects of your own enhancements, though. 

Thinking about it, it might be useful as a sniper. Nighttime shots. You'd need to do a lot to need compounding though.

The RPG lists '90 charges' for tin feruchemy as "hear well enough to hit someone with an arrow through a wall at five hundred yards in complete darkness."

Thing is, that'd take way too long to accumulate to be super useful on a pure tin feruchemist.  As would trying to track by smell (incidentally - 20 charges to track like a bloodhound?  That's CRAZY low).

 

Almost any set gives you benefits if you combine them. I would prefer some power other than double tin if I had the choice, incidentally.

True, but I think double tin offers significantly more synergy than, say, double electrum or double bendalloy.  Trying to draw a line between 'has both abilities' and 'is an ability compounder' seems kinda pointless.  It should at least be a +2, and I can make an argument for a tin compounder's total ability being about even with an iron compounder.

 

 

Bronze might warrant a bump to +2 for compounders as well.  While feruchemial bronze alone is one of the least useful abilities (since you only get 8 hours of awake time for every 8 hours spent in a trance, instead of 16 hours like you'd do sleeping without feruchemy), copmounding is pretty nice.  Having an effective lifespan 50% longer than anyone else probably translates to an overall increase in skill and experience. 

 

And that's without any 'more awake than awake' benefits... I'd assume that compounding wakefulness is exactly opposite sleep deprivation, and sleep dep causes all sorts of problems.  You would probably get a nice grab bag of stuff... faster reflexes, better awareness, higher strength, disease resistance, etc, combined with pretty much unlimited endurance.  It's not pewter, but still probably a +2.

[Nepene he/him]

Tin allomancy only goes up to hearing heartbeats from a few feet away on a still day. 

 

You can get blindsight, which lets you hear where people are through walls. As such you can know their exact location. This can be boosted by your feruchemy.

 

Feruchemy generally does a better job of protecting you from the effects of your own enhancements, though. 

The RPG lists '90 charges' for tin feruchemy as "hear well enough to hit someone with an arrow through a wall at five hundred yards in complete darkness."

Thing is, that'd take way too long to accumulate to be super useful on a pure tin feruchemist.  As would trying to track by smell (incidentally - 20 charges to track like a bloodhound?  That's CRAZY low).

The rpg lists similar problems for feruchemy and allomancy.

 

How often do you need to hear well enough to hit someone with an arrow through a wall at five hundred yards in complete darkness? You can store 50 charge in a short breather, 150 in a long breather. So long as you only do it rarely you're probably fine. Once every three sessions maybe.

 

With scent, a more useful power, you don't actually need a sense of smell for most adventures so you can store a lot of it. Especially with tin boosting your scent.

True, but I think double tin offers significantly more synergy than, say, double electrum or double bendalloy.  Trying to draw a line between 'has both abilities' and 'is an ability compounder' seems kinda pointless.  It should at least be a +2, and I can make an argument for a tin compounder's total ability being about even with an iron compounder.

 

Double electrum grants you immunity from flared emotional allomancy since it boosts your willpower, a useful power. It's like gold compounding for the mind. Very useful in more social oriented campaigns. I'd probably bump that up to 2.

 

Bendalloy is a fairly weak one to compound. Could be used for disguises, but not much else. Feru Bendalloy is in general a rather weak power. Expensive too.

 

There is a point to drawing a line- if we are talking about the strength of the power, unless compounding grants you extra strength it shouldn't be mentioned. Though I am convinced that tin is worth 1 point at least.

 

Edit. Another point. Brass compounding should be higher. "For every 10 charges of

warmth you tap, everyone within 10 paces (Close Range) suffers 1 less damage

from ice and cold. Additionally, attacks you make against living creatures inflict

+1 damage per 20 charges tapped, so long as you attack with your bare hands (or

another exposed part of your body) and you can reach an exposed patch of your

target’s skin."

 

You can literally melt people to death with it. You can't do that much with normal brass feru. It takes a while to store it. But with compounding? Every blow you made could be powerful enough to melt and kill someone. You could set fires with your hands. It's got some tight requirements, so it's not a 3, but it could be very useful to someone. Something a full feruchemist would wish he had.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Nepene

[Pechvarry]

Stopping in real quick -

While I intend to plug this stuff back into an RPG at some point, I actually wanted genuine opinions from a fiction standpoint. I'm trying to avoid gameplay constructs - like the penalties for burning gold - while focusing on the objective (Lurchers can kill themselves quite accidentally).

Re: Compounding column. If it would help, I could rename this "double-born" or something similar. For example, you could have a double-Tin character who never compounds -- he still has a power no one else possesses. I can't say "It's 0 points for double tin but only if you promise not to compound!"

Btw, note that burning Feruchemic Tin would give a very large burst of only a single sense. This would be best done off-scene to store the incredible burst in new Tinminds. Compounding during a fight, for example, would take a ridiculous amount of skill to know how much of the attribute you were about to get, how much you'd actually want to expose yourself to, and how much you'd want to Store.

EDIT:

*Thank you for the input on Brass, Nepene, I upped the compound value by 2, for a total cost of 6. (Personally don't think Brandon ever intended this, but I'll keep my bias out of my list).

*Adjusted Tin to 6 (for those keeping score, it has gone from an erroneous 7 to a 5 to a 6).

*Upped Bronze by a point because of the sheer utility Phantom pointed out.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Going by the RPG, brass can't set things on fire ever, which I think is kind of dumb.  I assume that's just game balance, though.

 

One of my headcanon things is that the Lord Ruler signed the Kandra Contract by compounding brass and literally melting his fingerprint into the metal plate.

 

Btw, note that burning Feruchemic Tin would give a very large burst of only a single sense. This would be best done off-scene to store the incredible burst in new Tinminds. Compounding during a fight, for example, would take a ridiculous amount of skill to know how much of the attribute you were about to get, how much you'd actually want to expose yourself to, and how much you'd want to Store.

During a fight it's probably better to limit, yeah.

[Nepene he/him]

On the gold, the penalties aren't just roleplaying. Take this exchange say from house of ashes.
 

"ghost of his potential was taller, more fit, with a lordly posture and a
richly textured coat with patterned lining. A gold brooch gleamed on his chest
emblazoned
with the emblem of Bylerum in gold. This incarnation of Tieran
exuded
an easy confidence, made eye contact with the real Tieran, and smiled
comfortably. Then it looked out the window of the coach and its smile faded…
“What are you doing in there?” demanded Burgh Bylerum, slapping a hand
down on the coach door.
Tieran started and his Gold-induced vision faded away. “Father, I was… I’m
just—”

 

You get to see how much better your life could be and how useless you are. You get distracted by your vision of hope.

 

Or.

 

Vin was both. She stood in two places, moving both bodies, being both girl and woman. She reached out with
hesitant, uncertain hands—one each—and touched herself on the faces, one each.
Vin gasped, and it was gone. She felt a sudden rush of emotions, a sense of worthlessness and confusion. There
were no chairs in the room, so she simply squatted to the ground, sitting with her back to the wall, knees pulled up,
arms wrapped around them.

 

Hence why it's seen as rather useless. Who can resist asking if your life could have been better? You get to see what a horrible person you are.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

House of Ashes has some fairly serious issues (though I appreciate the effort that went into it), so I don't like to use it for a reference.

In particular, when you burn gold you should immediately see from both perspectives (see: Vin's use of it).

A new metal reserve appeared within her—unfamiliar and different from the nine she knew. She looked up at Kelsier, took a breath, and burned gold.

She was in two places at once. She could see herself, and she could see herself.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[SwiftSteel he/him]

There are probably some unknown uses for gold that we haven't figured out yet.  I think gold is kind of like aluminum and duralumin: everyone thinks they're useless so they don't study them Allomantically

[Nepene he/him]

House of Ashes has some fairly serious issues (though I appreciate the effort that went into it), so I don't like to use it for a reference.

In particular, when you burn gold you should immediately see from both perspectives (see: Vin's use of it).

 

Has that been confirmed as a general rule for gold? It could just be due to her inexperience with it.

[skaa he/him]

Has that been confirmed as a general rule for gold? It could just be due to her inexperience with it.

 

Miles seemed to have the same experience when burning gold:

 

He could see through both pairs of eyes, think both sets of thoughts. He was two people at once, and each one loathed the other.

Chapter 15, the Alloy of Law

[Kadrok she/her]

In the MAG you can attempt to view a specific life. What I want to know is... do you know while burning what your double knows? Because if so I'd like to go to the possible life where I became an obligator and learned the secrets of the Steel Ministry. If not... I'd like to view the possible life where I became an obligator and learned the secrets of the Steel Ministry... and tattooed them on my arms for the benefit of an alternate timeline self.

[skaa he/him]

...and tattooed them on my arms for the benefit of an alternate timeline self.

 

Or, if you were a Augur/Archivist Twinborn, just store the memory of that experience in a Coppermind.

[Kadrok she/her]

Or, if you were a Augur/Archivist Twinborn, just store the memory of that experience in a Coppermind.

The tattoos are for if you don't share knowledge in the process of burning and need to convey it visually. I couldn't remember if knowing what they know is part of the 'Gold experience' (sounds dirty). But yeah, coppermind the hell out of the shadow's knowledge if you do... which leads to an interesting question. Are the Gold-selves shadows of possibilities or connections to altenate selves which actually exist in a multiverse... because if so you're effectively stealing the memories of other selves and it's probable they would do it to you, or else it's probable they've also thought of this and store all interesting memories in copperminds.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Kadrok

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Aluminum is probably a better choice for storing an alternate identity.

[skaa he/him]

The tattoos are for if you don't share knowledge in the process of burning and need to convey it visually. I couldn't remember if knowing what they know is part of the 'Gold experience'.

 

Well, yeah, having the person's actual knowledge is better than just seeing visions of his life, but I was under the impression that you could still store visual memories in a Coppermind.

 

 

Aluminum is probably a better choice for storing an alternate identity.

 

Depends. Tapping from an Aluminummind changes your personality as well, right? If the alternate Identity's personality sucks and you only want his knowledge anyway, Aluminum might not be the best choice.

Edited June 2, 2013 by skaa

[Kadrok she/her]

Aluminum is probably a better choice for storing an alternate identity.

Yeah Phantom, we know

 

Recently in a topic connecting Gold Allomancy to identity I speculated thus:

"Also, with regard to the theory connecting Gold to identity, while it is true that Gold is a temporal metal, I wonder if Aluminium Feruchemy could be used to store these shadow identities. A Gold/Aluminum Twinborn might actually be really interesting, able to have several different versions of themselves 'living' in different Metalminds able to be drawn in appropriate situations... or you could tap them all at once and have multiple personality disorder..."

 

Whoa! This sounds exactly like my own theory about Aluminum and Identity. I thought I was the first to think of that, but apparently not. I should have read more threads before starting my own.

 

 

Depends. Tapping from an Aluminummind changes your personality as well, right? If the alternate Identity's personality sucks and you only want his knowledge anyway, Aluminum might not be the best choice.

As skaa points out, I'm not interested in gaining their personality/identity, I'm interested in pillaging the knowledge of my alternate selves. Could you imagine gathering all the knowledge I might have had?!

[Isomere]

The Alloy of law strongly implies that burning gold does indeed allow you to gain information from the other self. How else would Miles know about the men of Red and Gold who I presume are on the other continent. I bet one of his possible past selves crossed the Ocean.

This could be a very powerful tool. For example, you could have an augur "scout" for you and get the report instantly. Just have him burn gold to see past selves that went scouting in different directions a few hours earlier. You could do all sorts of illegal things to get information without having to actually torture anyone or sneak anywhere.

[Kadrok she/her]

This could be a very powerful tool. For example, you could have an augur "scout" for you and get the report instantly. Just have him burn gold to see past selves that went scouting in different directions a few hours earlier. You could do all sorts of illegal things to get information without having to actually torture anyone or sneak anywhere.

Exactly!

 

The Alloy of law strongly implies that burning gold does indeed allow you to gain information from the other self. How else would Miles know about the men of Red and Gold who I presume are on the other continent. I bet one of his possible past selves crossed the Ocean.

 

That's a very interesting theory! Is it a topic somewhere?

[Pechvarry]

Yeah so... even if it's not an extremely tangible benefit. Still planning to leave Gold at 1.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Chromium Feruchemy: You're doin' it right.