What has Sazed been doing with the extra Ruin?

[yahas he/him]

As you may recall, as part of his plan to defeat Ati, Leras put a little more of Preservation in the humans. Now that Sazed holds both shards, it means that unless he has been siphoning off the extra Ruin somewhere, Harmony is slightly imbalanced.

I've seen Brandon tease a bit about this, but I can't find the source right now.

 

In any case, it seems like Sazed is not doing this by producing more Atium or anything of the sort, going by the lack of Atium in Alloy (although, there's no reason for there to be Atium in Alloy, or even for the main characters to know what Atium is, so maybe this is just wrong).

 

In any case, I have a theory about what he's doing with the extra Ruin: he put it in the Koloss, just like the extra Preservation is in humans.

 

I'm mostly basing this theory off a hunch. We know that Koloss have now become a race that 'breeds true', and the fact that they were originally made from Hemalurgy suggests that they have a little more of Ruin in them anyway. Add to this the fact that Sazed/Harmony seems to have started using the concept of Balance in his worldview, and I find the symmetry of humans having more Preservation in them while Koloss have more Ruin in them oddly pleasing, and a good fit with the whole Balance thing.

What do you guys think?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well, he could just be making atium and hand-delivering it to Marsh to keep him ticking.

 

And since preservation and ruin can fuel both magic systems, boring answer is that he just uses it to give people some extra allomantic power or whatever.

 

Or I guess he could just be like blowing up a moon from time to time.

[skaa he/him]

I like the idea of the true-breeding Koloss being mostly of Ruin. It means that Sazed is serious about his role as the balancer of Ruin and Preservation.

 

If this is the case, Koloss-human offspring would be more interesting than I thought. Did Tarson have equal amounts of Ruin and Preservation in his Koloss-Thug body?

 

I remember that Kandra have always claimed to be of Preservation. I think that's only true for Mistwraiths and that Kandra are "balanced" beings, with their Hemalurgic spikes adding Ruin to their Mistwraith body.

 

I also don't think any new Atium was being made at the time of the Mistborn Adventures, but I'm hoping Sazed would start making Atium and Lerasium again (in equal batches, of course) so that people could prepare for a possible war with Odium's forces in the future.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm pretty sure that's just a statement of their loyalty, nothing more fundamental.

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/272/mistborn-3-Chapter-Eleven
Eventually, I'll explain why the kandra think that they are of Preservation, when the other races are of Ruin. We'll get to that, don't worry. Just watch for it in the text of the book.

HoA 80 epigraph
The kandra people always said they were of Preservation, while the koloss and Inquisitors were of Ruin. Yet, the kandra bore Hemalurgic spikes, just like the others. Was their claim, then, simple delusion?
No, I think not. They were created by the Lord Ruler to be spies. When they said such things, most of us interpreted that as meaning he planned to use them as spies in his new government, because of their ability to imitate other people. Indeed, they were used for this purpose.
But I see something much more grand in their existence. They were the Lord Ruler's double agents, planted with Hemalurgic spikes, yet trusted—taught, bound—to pull them free when Ruin tried to seize them. In Ruin's moment of triumph, when he'd always assumed the kandra would be his on a whim, the vast majority of them immediately switched sides and left him unable to seize his prize.
They were of Preservation all along.

[skaa he/him]

Oh, I wholeheartedly acknowledge that it was TLR's plan for the kandra to remove their spikes once Ruin attempted to "seize his prize". What I'm speculating on is the mechanics of that plan. How could most of the kandra resist the temptation to keep their spikes when we know that Hemalurgy increases Ruin's influence? We also know that humans are mostly of Preservation, and yet they are quite easily transformed into Ruin's puppets even with the smallest of spikes, so that proves just how strong Hemalurgy is. How did the kandra manage to beat that?

 

When I think about it, the only possible explanation is that the mistwraiths had no Ruin in them. They were literally of Preservation. And so the Hemalurgic spikes that created kandra only led to them being roughly half Ruin, half Preservation (perhaps a little bit more Preservation, I don't know). It means that they were completely free to choose which side they would go to. Most of them freely chose to go through with TLR's plan.

Edited May 23, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Oh, I wholeheartedly acknowledge that it was TLR's plan for the kandra to remove their spikes once Ruin attempted to "seize his prize". What I'm speculating on was the mechanics of that plan. How did most of the kandra resist the temptation to keep their spikes when we know that Hemalurgy increases Ruin's influence? We also know that humans are mostly of Preservation, and yet they are quite easily transformed into Ruin's puppets even with the smallest of spikes, so that proves just how strong Hemalurgy is. How did the kandra manage to beat that?

Not really easily transformed.  It takes quite a long time of Ruin working on a guy to succeed at all, and even then his success rate was never very high.  And Kandra are very logical and thoughtful.

 

HoA epigraphs:

Ruin tried many times to get spikes into other members of the crew. Though some of what happened makes it seem like it was easy for him to gain control of people, it really was not.

Sticking the metal in just the right place—at the right time—was incredibly difficult, even for a subtle creature like Ruin. For instance, he tried very hard to spike both Elend and Yomen. Elend managed to avoid it each time, as he did on the field outside of the small village that contained the next-to-last storage cache.

Ruin did actually manage to get a spike into Yomen, once. Yomen, however, removed the spike before Ruin got a firm grip on him. It was much easier for Ruin to get a hold on people who were passionate and impulsive than it was for him to hold on to people who were logical and prone to working through their actions in their minds.

 

 

Above him, TenSoon jerked. Something within the kandra seemed to be fighting—tradition and a lifetime of training warred against the control of an outside force. TenSoon released Sazed with one hand, but kept choking him with the other. Then, with his free hand, the kandra reached toward his own shoulder.

They had just two spikes, only needed to resist for a few seconds, had trained themselves over a long period for just this circumstance, and not all of them succeeded, either. Edited May 23, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[skaa he/him]

Not really easily transformed.  It takes quite a long time of Ruin working on a guy to succeed at all, and even then his success rate was never very high.  And Kandra are very logical and thoughtful.

 

Okay, agreed. Many of the kandra had their spikes for longer than the span of a human life, though. I'd bet even Yomen (who was probably spiked for just a short while) won't be able to fight Ruin off in that situation.

Edited May 23, 2013 by skaa

[Kadrok she/her]

Well, he could just be making atium and hand-delivering it to Marsh to keep him ticking.

 

And since preservation and ruin can fuel both magic systems, boring answer is that he just uses it to give people some extra allomantic power or whatever.

 

Or I guess he could just be like blowing up a moon from time to time.

Dammit Phantom, stop bewitching upvotes out of me with your humour and easy charisma!

 

On the topics, the Kandra also had the advantage of being in a metal rich area meaning that even if Ruin could use their Hemalurgy to slightly influence them, it would be mitigated by the fact that unless they're on assignment, they're largely concealed from his view.

 

As for the other topic, the Koloss... one thing bothers me about the Koloss being changed to breed true... I was under the impression it was mostly male prisoners who got the four iron spike treatment, though I suppose there could be plenty of girl-koloss, and we just can't tell under their rippling muscles and skin tearing... but if there weren't many or any female koloss... did Sazed... gender-swap a bunch of them? 

 

(I haven't finished Alloy yet, so perhaps this is explained...)

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kadrok

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Okay, agreed. Many of the kandra had their spikes for longer than the span of a human life, though. I'd bet even Yomen (who was probably spiked for just a short while) won't be able to fight Ruin off in that situation.

Yeah, but Ruin was ignoring them. He assumed he could get the kandra on a whim, without any effort on his part - and with his hands tied by grappling with preservation, there was no need of him to waste power taking control of something that was pretty useless

Ruin must have noticed what she was studying, or perhaps he sensed her smugness. You think you've won? he asked, sounding amused. Why, because you managed to stop a few kandra? They were always the weakest of the minions the Lord Ruler created for me. I have made a habit of ignoring them. Either way, Vin, you cannot really think that you have beaten me.

 

"We have more independence of will than the other two," TenSoon said. "We only have two spikes in us, while the others have more. An Allomancer can still take control of us, but free we remain more independent of mind than koloss or Inquisitors, who are both affected by Ruin's impulses even when he isn't directly controlling them. Did you never wonder why both of them are driven so powerfully to kill?"

 

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh�s viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that�s partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she�d continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin�s pressure wasn�t enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

 

 

There's another quote that says something along the lines of 'ruin didn't care about the kandra because they were useless for killing things', but I can't find it atm.

 

 

As for the other topic, the Koloss... one thing bothers me about the Koloss being changed to breed true... I was under the impression it was mostly male prisoners who got the four iron spike treatment, though I suppose there could be plenty of girl-koloss, and we just can't tell under their rippling muscles and skin tearing... but if there weren't many or any female koloss... did Sazed... gender-swap a bunch of them?

Interesting question.  I'm leaning towards koloss being effectively genderless, since they can only breed through spiking people.  I know there are female inquisitors as well, but...

Edited May 23, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[skaa he/him]

Phantom, you do realize that the quotes you gave do not refute the theory that mistwraiths are of Preservation, right? Those quotes all suggest that the kandra are less susceptible to Ruin. This fact may be explained by your theory of sheer luck (i.e. the kandra were just very lucky to be ignored by Ruin after so many years) or it could be explained by my theory of the kandra being more balanced than normal humans on account of the mistwraith's extreme Preservation alignment. Or it could be both.

 

In the end, we'll just have to agree to disagree until Brandon clarifies the issue. Personally, I prefer Cosmere theories that actually involve thinking about Realmatics and Shardic Theory (e.g. how the Shards interact Realmatically with the other beings in Cosmere). But I know that's not all there is to it, so I may still be wrong.

Edited May 23, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I wouldn't exactly say 'luck'.  The Lord Ruler made the kandra and wrote up the Resolution as part of Preservation's master plan.

 

Ruin was perfectly accurate in thinking he could take over any kandra in a few seconds if he wanted to.  They were just too useless for him to bother with.  After all, for the price of a kandra, it'd be far easier for him to control several koloss, and giant deadly ogres are way more destructive.

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/341/mistborn-3-Chapter-Sixty-Six

Ruin has generally ignored the kandra. He doesn�t see them as all that useful. They can�t kill people, and they are too thoughtful and quiet to be destructive in the way he wants. He considers them a much inferior creation to the koloss and the Inquisitors.

 

And I mean, Brandon says in the annotations that the kandra only had a few moments before being taken over, and that's with being shielded by metal.

[skaa he/him]

I wouldn't exactly say 'luck'.  The Lord Ruler made the kandra and wrote up the Resolution as part of Preservation's master plan.

 

Ruin was perfectly accurate in thinking he could take over any kandra in a few seconds if he wanted to.  They were just too useless for him to bother with.  After all, for the price of a kandra, it'd be far easier for him to control several koloss, and giant deadly ogres are way more destructive.

 

And I mean, Brandon says in the annotations that the kandra only had a few moments before being taken over, and that's with being shielded by metal.

 

Good points. I was under the impression that Ruin was never really a threat to most of the kandra, but apparently I was wrong.

[Pechvarry]

I'm with skaa on this. Even without Ruin's control, the koloss and inquisitors were bloodthirsty. Saying "kandra could resist because they were logical" doesn't explain the fact that they SHOULDN'T have been calm, logical creatures to begin with. Pair this with the fact that they're the longest-lived of all 3 hemalurgic species (giving Ruin a very long time to corrupt them), and Ruin's excuse of them not being worth the effort just falls flat.

Ergo, I don't think he could slowly corrupt them. If he were only able to assume direct control, allomancy style, that would explain why he felt they weren't worth the effort. Plus, I don't think he had the power to control them until the final days.

How does this tie into sazed's excess ruin? Sorry, I have no clue.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Pechvarry

[skaa he/him]

How does this tie into sazed's excess ruin? Sorry, I have no clue.

Ah, yeah, sorry if my tiny, technically unnecessary remark spawned an off-topic discussion.

Basically, I just thought I'd mention the Kandra because they'd also affect the overall distribution of Ruin and Preservation on Scadrial. If humans are mostly Preservation, and Koloss are mostly Ruin, I was thinking perhaps Kandra would have to be somewhere in between.

If Kandra aren't as balanced as I think they are, then either Koloss aren't mostly of Ruin, or Sazed is hiding an extra bit of Ruin or Preservation somewhere.

Edited May 23, 2013 by skaa

[Senor Feesh]

I'm with skaa on this. Even without Ruin's control, the koloss and inquisitors were bloodthirsty. Saying "kandra could resist because they were logical" doesn't explain the fact that they SHOULDN'T have been calm, logical creatures to begin with. Pair this with the fact that they're the longest-lived of all 3 hemalurgic species (giving Ruin a very long time to corrupt them), and Ruin's excuse of them not being worth the effort just falls flat.

Ergo, I don't think he could slowly corrupt them. If he were only able to assume direct control, allomancy style, that would explain why he felt they weren't worth the effort. Plus, I don't think he had the power to control them until the final days.

How does this tie into sazed's excess ruin? Sorry, I have no clue.

 

Koloss were actually designed to be aggressive, it's not just a function of the spikes. TLR wanted them to fight with each other and kill themselves off if they ever got out of control (alas, he didn't predict that they'd figure out how to harvest spikes). Inquisitors I think were heavily influenced by Ruin even before TLR's death, as they made great tools (being all Allomantically powered killing machines and all).

 

Hemalurgy doesn't automatically make you irrational, rage-filled creatures. It just opens you up to Ruin's influence - and he chose to ignore the Kandra, thinking they weren't worth his time as a tool. Silly Ruin.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm with skaa on this. Even without Ruin's control, the koloss and inquisitors were bloodthirsty.

 

That's explained in my quote above.  Koloss and Inquisitors have four and over a dozen spikes, respectively.  As such, they've always got ruin influence even when they're not doing anything.  Kandra only have two, so they're less vulnerable.

 

I mean think about Vin - she never got hijacked by Ruin.  He could mess with her emotions and talk to her, but he couldn't actually ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL.  Same with Spook, Citizen USSR, and Penrod - they were being manipulated, but they weren't being puppeteered. 

 

The Koloss, on  the other hand, get puppeteered easily, but Ruin still has a hard time keeping a grip on them when they're in the middle of a rage (but hey they're killing things anyway, so who cares).  Kandra are actually a little more vulnerable than I'd expect them to be.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity