Falling in Shardplate

[Patrick Star]

Okay, so there's a big characteristic about Shardplate that's REALLY been bugging me recently.  Or more specifically, some of the stuff that shardbearers do.

 

When Renarin first gets his shardplate, Zahel (Vasher) tells him to jump off the roof of the training yard and land on his head, in order to get Renarin to build trust in the shardplate.

 

However, even though the shardplate wouldn't be affected (much, at least) by such a fall, Renarin should be.

 

Hitting the ground and suddenly coming to a stop should have given Renarin a major concussion, and possibly killed him.

 

Now, I know that Renarin was already a truthwatcher, so he may have stolen some stormlight from the suit's gems.  However, Zahel indicated that this type of training is fairly par for the course, meaning that another non-radiant shardbearer has done the same routine.

 

So, what's the deal with shardplate?  Does it have inertial dampener fabrials, or something?

[Guest]

I don't remember when, but Adolin at one point comments on the Plate's ability to absorb shock

[Sol Invictus he/him]

Keep in mind that, in comic books, physics work very differently; they have to, otherwise no superpowers would work in the ways they are depicted as working. So, in the Cosmere, the Shardplate may well stop kinetic energy to one degree or another. Bulletproof vests stop bullets, but the bullet's kinetic energy still leaves bad bruising and, in some cases, leaves a broken rib or two. So, unless Shardplate wearers still suffer some degree of damage even after getting hit, then kinetic absorption is virtually required.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Sol Invictus

[VindicationKnight he/him]

Given Adolin took a lighting bolt to the face and wasn't deafened or blinded even temporarily Shardplate has to be protecting it's user from negative side effects of an attack, rather than merely being durable in itself.

 

It seems to cushion it's user from all sorts of such side effects and even the Alethi don't know how far that goes. 

[king of nowhere]

either the armor is well padded, or it behaves elastically so it absorbs shock.

also, i remember renarin being dazed after the jump, so he did feel the deceleration.  it was just cushioned enough to make no damage. it's fully realistic to me. it's mostly what would happen if you wore an helmet designed for a motorcycle. except that doindg that jump with just the helmet, it would protect your head but you'd break your neck. shardplate of course covers that too.

[Guest]

We know that Shardplate shapes itself to the requirements of the wearer, so it definitely has elastic qualities.

[VindicationKnight he/him]

We know that Shardplate shapes itself to the requirements of the wearer, so it definitely has elastic qualities.

 

It's also more comfortable than it should be isn't it?

[Oudeis he/him]

I concur with most of the above. Shardplate simply grants strength; we know this. You can leap impossible distances, crush rocks in your hands, and catch Chasmfiends. Renarin apparently has fits, but Dalinar comments that as long as he's wearing Plate, that won't matter. Even with protection, it shouldn't be okay to seize in the middle of battle, but apparently Plate grants you something that fixes that. It probably sucks up Stormlight from the gems faster to do so, but somehow Plate absorbs concussive force, protecting the person inside.

 

In the big Duel in Words of Radiance, someone fights with a hammer, yes? That should damage the person inside, too, yet doesn't seem to, at least not very much.

 

Also, as a far more mundane answer, Adolin talks about all the cushioning you put on, too, right? Though I guess most of it isn't around the head.

[VindicationKnight he/him]

On a similar note, do we know if Plates ability to ignore lighting is down to it being artificial magic blocked by Plate's innate magic resistance or is it the same form of cushioning?

 

Adolin's Plate not only protected him from the bolt, it also shielded his sense, which is a pretty intelligent thing for it to do as an automatic feature.

[Guest]

It's also more comfortable than it should be isn't it?

That could simply be a function of it fitting perfectly, like how Shardblades are said to be "lightweight" but really they are heavy but light by comparison.

[Posaune]

 

 

It's also more comfortable than it should be isn't it?

It might be more comfortable due to the enhanced strength and support, but Adolin does complain about the chafing it causes. So it is not extremely comfortable, but probably more than traditional earth-style plate armor, as that required ridiculous amounts of padding, and they put shardplate on over clothes. 

[Guest]

Hitting the ground and suddenly coming to a stop should have given Renarin a major concussion, and possibly killed him.

 

If someone has a major concussion in book, it is Adolin and not Renarin. Adolin falls twice, hard, on his head without the protection of his Plate. Both times, he nearly passes out and the second time, he spends the remaining of the book complaining about a massive headache.

 

Plate protects the body. When Adolin gets thrown out from Sureblood and tumbleweeds on the rocks, he is completely disoriented, but physically fine. So no worries, Renarin does not have a concussion. Adolin however, most certainly has one.

[natc]

The plate even seems to be somewhat lightning-proof.

The whole thing seems to enhance the body itself. It's not just power armor.

[Patrick Star]

I concur with most of the above. Shardplate simply grants strength; we know this. You can leap impossible distances, crush rocks in your hands, and catch Chasmfiends. Renarin apparently has fits, but Dalinar comments that as long as he's wearing Plate, that won't matter. Even with protection, it shouldn't be okay to seize in the middle of battle, but apparently Plate grants you something that fixes that. It probably sucks up Stormlight from the gems faster to do so, but somehow Plate absorbs concussive force, protecting the person inside.

 

In the big Duel in Words of Radiance, someone fights with a hammer, yes? That should damage the person inside, too, yet doesn't seem to, at least not very much.

 

Also, as a far more mundane answer, Adolin talks about all the cushioning you put on, too, right? Though I guess most of it isn't around the head.

 

What I'm saying is that absorbing the force of the ground isn't enough to stop a concussion.  It's not the force that would cause the concussion, it's that the shardplate exerts a force on the wearer's skull, but not on the brain.  Because of this, the brain sloshes around inside the skull, causing the concussion.

 

For shardplate to protect against the fall, it would have to exert a force directly on the wearer's brain and other internal organs to prevent injury.

 

Here's what I'm talking about, only with Tony Stark inside the Iron Man suit:

 

Edited July 4, 2015 by Patrick Star

[Guest]

 

 

 

What I'm saying is that absorbing the force of the ground isn't enough to stop a concussion.  It's not the force that would cause the concussion, it's that the shardplate exerts a force on the wearer's skull, but not on the brain.  Because of this, the brain sloshes around inside the skull, causing the concussion.

 

For shardplate to protect against the fall, it would have to exert a force directly on the wearer's brain and other internal organs to prevent injury.

 

If Plate was this feeble, then Adolin has a seriously messed up head, much more than Renarin with his few controlled jumps. I am with Oudeis on this one: Plate cushioned the hits. Adolin gets hammered quite solidly by the warhammer and yet he does not complain of headaches afterwards nor does he get dizzy/confused and nor does he black-out. When he lands on his head twice while fighting Szeth he is barely conscious for a few seconds, he is dizzy and he complains his head hurts. THAT's a concussion.

Edited July 4, 2015 by maxal

[Oudeis he/him]

I'm not just saying the Shardplate is strong, I'm saying the Shardplate makes the wearer strong. It makes your muscles, organs, and bones strong. You're not shaking around inside the armor like a ball bearing in a sardine tin. I wouldn't be surprised if it does actually have a field inside that keeps your body stable, but whether or not it does, it makes your body strong.

 

Mistborn

...like someone burning pewter.

 

You don't suffer a concussion because your brain, and all the stuff that's supposed to keep your brain and your body more-or-less in-sync, are all strong enough to shrug off concussive force. Also, it's possible the armor negates it.

[natc]

Mistborn spoilers:

 

Vin survived blowing herself off a roof with that super-jump without much trouble too.

I guess a lot of magic involving enhanced movement and such have concussion failsafes.

Edited July 4, 2015 by WeiryWriter
when discussing non-stormlight books in the stormlight forum please use spoiler tags

[Patrick Star]

If Plate was this feeble, then Adolin has a seriously messed up head, much more than Renarin with his few controlled jumps. I am with Oudeis on this one: Plate cushioned the hits. Adolin gets hammered quite solidly by the warhammer and yet he does not complain of headaches afterwards nor does he get dizzy/confused and nor does he black-out. When he lands on his head twice while fighting Szeth he is barely conscious for a few seconds, he is dizzy and he complains his head hurts. THAT's a concussion.

 

I'm not saying that the plate is feeble.  It cushions the external blows fine.  The hammer is a non-issue.

 

What I'm saying is that such a concussion would not be caused by the force of hitting the ground.  It would occur because some parts of the shardbearer (like the skull) would be stopped by the shardplate.  However, other parts (such as the brain) would keep moving, as they are not being directly acted on.  The brain hitting the skull (since the skull was stopped, but the brain wasn't) would cause the concussion.  It has nothing to do with how strong the shardplate is.

 

In order for shardplate to work, it would definitely need some sort of internal force field to act as a damper.  Again, it is in no way an issue with how strong the shardplate is.  I think the video I posted explains the problem fairly well.

[Oudeis he/him]

A field is possible, but I think it's covered by the enhanced physical attributes Plate grants your body. Your whole body is stronger in Plate, as has been shown frequently. It's easier for Eshonai to walk around in her Plate with her wounded leg than out of it. Whatever is artificially strengthening your body could also easily account for keeping your brain unconcussed.

[king of nowhere]

if the plate can absorb the shock elastically, then it means that it gives way gradually instead of blocking immediately. which means that your brain decelerates more gradually, gradually enough to avoid harm. that's the principle of cushioning. that's why a motorcycle helmet is filled with some foam that can deform on impact. It just is a matter of prolonging the distance over which the motion is stopped, so that the acceleration can be smaller.

 

As for the lightning thing, I assumed the plate is simply acting as a faraday's cage. It's not magic, it's science.

[Turos]

Three words: 0.7Gs

 

Haha. I don't know if that is enough difference to save you, but gravity is lower on Roshar.

[natc]

The cage working to repel lightning is science, yes.

Turning the plate into one of those on a without so much as a natural source of electricity probably won't be. Not with how long that suit has existed anyway, and how much entire suits of plate are demolished and regenerated on a regular basis.

Three words: 0.7Gs

Haha. I don't know if that is enough difference to save you, but gravity is lower on Roshar.

When you hit the ground like that, you're still going from somewhere kind of close to terminal velocity (I would say? Never tried to skydive before, can't be sure how fast freefall at terminal velocity would be) to flat 0 m/s, so it probably doesn't really matter much. Gravity really only affects how long it takes to get that fast, and it doesn't take very long once you jump off the edge.

The gs represent acceleration. Which means when you fall you just keep going faster until you physically can't go faster from air resistance. It's pretty damnation fast. And it's not the speed that kills you, it's when the speed disappears and your brain smashes into your skull in a spectacular fashion.

Edited July 4, 2015 by natc

[king of nowhere]

The cage working to repel lightning is science, yes.

Turning the plate into one of those on a without so much as a natural source of electricity probably won't be. Not with how long that suit has existed anyway, and how much entire suits of plate are demolished and regenerated on a regular basis.

I don't see how that affects whether or not the armor is conductive. If it is made of conductive material, then it will act as a faraday cage and protect you from lightning. and given that voidbringers can shoot lightning, it makes sense for it to be.

 

When you hit the ground like that, you're still going from somewhere kind of close to terminal velocity (I would say? Never tried to skydive before, can't be sure how fast freefall at terminal velocity would be) to flat 0 m/s, so it probably doesn't really matter much. Gravity really only affects how long it takes to get that fast, and it doesn't take very long once you jump off the edge.

The gs represent acceleration. Which means when you fall you just keep going faster until you physically can't go faster from air resistance. It's pretty damnation fast. And it's not the speed that kills you, it's when the speed disappears and your brain smashes into your skull in a spectacular fashion.

Sorry, you are spectacularly wrong in this. first of all, to reach terminal velocity you need at least a hundred meters of freefall, possibly more. renarin was falling from 3-4 meters, top.

but second, and most important, gravity does matter because terminal velocity is the balance between gravity and air resitance. air resistance increases with the square of your speed, and as you accelerate for gravity air resistance increases until it becomes equal to it.

to go in detailed calculation, it means m*g=k*d*v^2, where m is mass of the person, g the gravity, k the friction coefficient, d the air density, and v the terminal velocitu. on earth, for a person falling terminal velocity is about 200 km/h. rearranging, you get v=squareroot(m*g/k*d), and for earth 200=squareroot(g*R), where R is m/k*d. so, since both the mass of the person and the friction coeficient are unchanged, and as far as we know the atmospheric pressure on roshar is equal to that of earth (there is more oxygen, so there must be less nitrogen). by applying proportionality, you get that the terminal velocity on roshar is equal to the terminal velociity on earth divided by the square root of 0.7, which gives you 167 km/h. A moderate decrease.

However you also have to take into account that a man in shardplate is heavier than a man without, but his friction is mostly the same, sso his terminal velocity will be greater. luckily, you don't have to take into account terminal velocity, so you don't need to figure out how much shardplate wheights.

 

Edited July 4, 2015 by king of nowhere

[VindicationKnight he/him]

if the plate can absorb the shock elastically, then it means that it gives way gradually instead of blocking immediately. which means that your brain decelerates more gradually, gradually enough to avoid harm. that's the principle of cushioning. that's why a motorcycle helmet is filled with some foam that can deform on impact. It just is a matter of prolonging the distance over which the motion is stopped, so that the acceleration can be smaller.

 

As for the lightning thing, I assumed the plate is simply acting as a faraday's cage. It's not magic, it's science.

 

The issue is not just that he was immune to lighting, but that the plate also shielded his eyes and ears from the light and sound. Lighting tends to be fairly bright and loud after all but Adolin wasn't even a little bothered.

[natc]

Okay, guess I was misremembering it for a different cage.

As mentioned though, the visual and auditory shielding definitely isn't something that just happens.