Jasnah Has Visions From Cultivation

[Isomere]

I have no good evidence to support this theory, but I think it would be fun for a Prophet to be Atheistic. I came up with it because I think Dalinar will become a Skybreaker (Ishi) and Jasnah is a SpiritWalker (Palah) the two of them would form the two pupils of the dual-eye. Dalinar sees Honor, so Jasnah should see Cultivation. This may explain why she became so interested in researching the Voidbringers.

 

The Spirit Head in between the Greatshells in the knights radiant table is a beautiful representation of two physical objects linking together to create a single spiritual union. Ishi is associated with guidance and piety, and resides in the third eye focus of the spiritual union of Honor and Cultivation. This represents future sight and can warn us of dangers in the future and help us find the most beneficial paths. Palah represents past-sight, growth, spirit and nourishment as it resides in the mouth focus of the spiritual union of Honor and Cultivation. By learning of the past we gain the spiritual nourishment we need to grow and attain wisdom. This, combined with the guidance of Ishi, is the origin of the double-eye symbols so prevalent in the book, and show us the way to enlightenment. 

 

Edited April 25, 2013 by Isomere

[dj26792]

The biggest problem that comes with that theory is that that order theoretically specialises in organic soulcasting, something Jasnah states she is terrible at.

[KChan]

We've seen nothing in the book to indicate that Jasnah has received visions from Cultivation, nor that she ever will. Perhaps her atheism will be central to her storyline; perhaps it's just an interesting part of her character. It's impossible to say more at this point.

Also, as fun as speculation is, it's difficult to consider a theory to be plausible when it not only has no evidence to support it, but is also based on a theory with very little evidence. Speculation is fun, but this is a rather hard sell for me.

Edited April 27, 2013 by KChan

[Shivertongue]

You had me at "atheistic prophet."

 

You lost me with everything else.

[Yados]

Well Jasnah could have visions from Cultivation and still be an atheist. 

 

Cultivation isn't god. It's a space alien whose consciousness was grafted onto a metaphysical force that was either created or worshipped by another alien culture before it broke.

 

Jasnah might be very aware of that fact if she's getting visions from it. 

 

I'm reminded of "Radio Free Albemuth."

 

This isn't to mention that, as a fully intact and alive Shard, Cultivation could probably just show up and talk to Jasnah if she wanted. 

[Observer]

Do we know that She's alive? In-book there's a pretty big stretch of time in which we know nothing about her condition.

[Yados]

Well, that's a good point. Didn't Honor make reference to her in the present tense in Dalinar's last vision? 

[dj26792]

He did, however many years ago the visions were recorded but that could be a thousand years ago or more. Just because Cultivation was alive then doesn't mean she is now.

[Isomere]

I actually disagree with this theory too, after thinking about it more. I have been looking at the table and if my organization is correct Cultivation deals mostly with perception. It doesn't make sense for her to be Sending visions.

The biggest problem that comes with that theory is that that order theoretically specialises in organic soulcasting, something Jasnah states she is terrible at.

This organic soulcasting idea is new to me, and is worth looking into. Two thoughts come to mind:

1) Jasnah is not Palah. She really does seem to be linked strongly with Smokestone, so maby she is really Nan and I have the surges wrong.

2) Being Palah only let's you easily create one bland but very healthy substance. She could then be Palah and still have trouble creating very complex stuff like strawberry jam.

Just because Cultivation was alive then doesn't mean she is now.

There really isn't enough evidence to know where Cultivation is. If they did merge into one Shard with two intellects then she probably died during the shattering too.

[KChan]

I honestly don't see any evidence that Honor and Cultivation merged at all. Remember, Honor is Splintered. Logic would dictate that the Shard would have to be made whole again before it could merge with another one.

[sonNeturo]

I think it unlikely that they merged as I think that only the shard can merge no the people holding them (Harmony). Although the Knights Radiant could be a 'merge' of Honour and Cultivation as I'm sure I remember a quote from BS or a 17th Sharder (I think but am not certain) that some Spren are of Honour and others of Cultivation 

[Isomere]

There is no direct evidence for the merger, just my interpretation of some pictures and relationships in the book:

1) A single eye with two pupils is a strong indicator of two conscious minds looking out through the same eye.

2) Two physical bodies creating a single larger form between them is a strong suggestion of some type of spiritual or cognitive connection.

3) We have WoB that the Spren have varying degrees of Investiture from both Honor and Cultivation, and it seems these Spren existed before the shattering. That means the two Shards probably created "Honorspren" together.

4) The Highstorms seem to have components of both Honor and Cultivation in them.

5) The name of the Almighty is "He who Transforms", which could be a hint that he metamorphed. Also, Transformation is very strongly associated with the Intent of Cultivation.

Are these coincidences? Am I reading too much into this? I'll leave that up to you.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

3) We have WoB that the Spren have varying degrees of Investiture from both Honor and Cultivation, and it seems these Spren existed before the shattering. That means the two Shards probably created "Honorspren" together.

But there were new spren that only existed after the shattering.

Honorspren could be some of those.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[darkanimereal1]

But there were new spren that only existed after the shattering.

Honorspren could be some of those.

 

Hmm, you think Honorspren weren't until after Honor shattered? I kind of assumed they were around during the desolations, since the KR existed then. This is all assumption, but from what we've seen of Dalinar's visions it would appear that Honor was alive up until at least until the Recreance. I also assumed that Honorspren were of Honor (seems pretty logical). If I'm reading what you said correctly, you think that Honorspren came into existence after Honor was shattered? Maybe the better question to ask is: when do you think Honor was shattered?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Hmm, you think Honorspren weren't until after Honor shattered? I kind of assumed they were around during the desolations, since the KR existed then. This is all assumption, but from what we've seen of Dalinar's visions it would appear that Honor was alive up until at least until the Recreance. I also assumed that Honorspren were of Honor (seems pretty logical). If I'm reading what you said correctly, you think that Honorspren came into existence after Honor was shattered? Maybe the better question to ask is: when do you think Honor was shattered?

That was badly phrased. What I meant was that if new spren types suddenly came into existence after Honor shattering, we can assume that they're made only out of honor. And if you've got spren that are pure honor, why would the honorspren be a mix with cultivation?

[Isomere]

if new spren types suddenly came into existence after Honor shattering, we can assume that they're made only out of honor.

If my theory is correct, Honor and Cultivation were merged and both shattered together. I would expect all spren to have a mix of the two shards.

[Senor Feesh]

If my theory is correct, Honor and Cultivation were merged and both shattered together. I would expect all spren to have a mix of the two shards.

Forgive me for not digging the quote out right now as I'm on my mobile, but we actually have WoB that SOME spren are a mixture, whilst others are of Honor OR Cultivation

[Windrunner]

Here you go.

4. Zas: A question related to that. There’s an ideagoing around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called Honorspren, and then Nohaden talks specifically about Honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

Brandon: I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.

Zas: Nohaden mentioned that “All the spren aren’t as discerning as Honorspren.”

Brandon: So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves Honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know “This is what defines an

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).
Source

[Isomere]

"All Spren are pieces of the one who has gone". All spren are pieces of either Honor or Cultivation or some mixture between the two." That sounds very interesting indeed. You can definitely read this to mean some Spren only have one type of investiture, but regardless of which shard they come from they are all from the ONE who has gone... Seems to overall support the idea that they became a single shard at some point.

[darkanimereal1]

"All Spren are pieces of the one who has gone". All spren are pieces of either Honor or Cultivation or some mixture between the two." That sounds very interesting indeed. You can definitely read this to mean some Spren only have one type of investiture, but regardless of which shard they come from they are all from the ONE who has gone... Seems to overall support the idea that they became a single shard at some point.

 

Well, either that, or (in the case that Cultivation has also been shattered by Odium) that they all come from the one who has gone, which could then be either Honor or Cultivation.

[Arondell]

In Dalinar's vision of Nohodon honorspren are specifically mentioned.  So they existed before the Radiants were around.

 

During Dalinar's last vision Tanavast spoke of Cultivation as a separate entity.  "I cannot see the future completely.  Cultivation, she is better at it then I."  So up until that point, which was long after the creation of the Radiants, there had been no merging between the two shards.  Also it is safe to assume that Honor was shatterd shortly after he finished making his vision so I can't see Cultivation wanting to merge then either.

 

Since it is reasonable to conclude that most if not all the symbols of the Radiants were made between those two points whatever they represent it isn't a merging of shards.

 

I just figured Honor and Cultivation had some mutual goals that cooperating helped them achieve.  Heck even Preservation and Ruin were able to work together early in their relationship.

[Isomere]

The timeline does seem confusing. We know Cultivation and Honor we on Roshar long before Odium came. My thoughts are the Merging took place in a previous Epoch, and the Honorspren have been around for a very long time. Odium came later and Desolations started. The nohadon vision happened. The people gathered together, formed the Knights Radiant and the current KR table was incorporated into a stained glass window somewhere. At some later point, Tanavast separated from Cultivation, watched the fall of the Heralds and the KR, formed his Journal and then died. I'm not sure where the Shattering fits into this. Could be before or after Tanavast separated, or the shattering could have caused the separation.

[Arondell]

I think it is only confusing if your working with the premise that Honor and Cultivation actually merged at some point.  I guess I just don't see what merging would be able to do that simple cooperation could not.  Especially since it is well established that even diametrically opposed shards are perfectly capable of working together without merging.  e.g. Ferochemy is a complete magic system combining traits of both Preservation and Ruin.  My take on it from an "Occam's Razor" perspective.

[Senor Feesh]

I think it is only confusing if your working with the premise that Honor and Cultivation actually merged at some point.  I guess I just don't see what merging would be able to do that simple cooperation could not.  Especially since it is well established that even diametrically opposed shards are perfectly capable of working together without merging.  e.g. Ferochemy is a complete magic system combining traits of both Preservation and Ruin.  My take on it from an "Occam's Razor" perspective.

 

Agreed. In the nicest possible way, your theory of Honor and Cultivation merging is, as I understand it, based on your interpretation of the Knights Radiant diagram. Sadly, I just don't buy what you're selling here. The 'eye with two pupils' is a total stretch; I don't see that at all when I look at the image. I don't even really see a face; it's just not there in the negative space between the winged creatures.

 

Having formally studied art and design in university, I'm very much aware of how images can be interpreted to have meanings that the artist never intended, and on the other side of the coin, I saw plenty of people in my class effectively crem dung 'meaning' into their work that was never really there - hell, I even did it myself on occasion.

 

Beyond this questionable reading of the KR diagram, we really have no good reason to assume the two ever joined.