Discrepancy with Hemalurgy

[Vortaan he/him]

I was reading through the known Hemalurgic effect, or what they steal recently, and there's a pattern that gets broken in the Enhancement metals. All the pulling metals steal a basic human attribute, like strength, senses, mental fortitude... except for aluminum. For some reason, it steals Allomantic Enhancement abilities.  It stands to reason that chromium would then take Feruchemical Enhancement abilities.

 

The question is does the pattern hold true in the Time metals? I've heard the theory that gold spikes were what bestowed Feruchemical healing, which would hold to the reversed pattern, which leaves us with cadmium taking Allomantic Temporal powers and the other pushing metals being unknown. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Feruchemy is divided based on physical/cognitive/spiritual realm, which is different than how allomantic powers are divided.

There isn't really an 'enhancement feruchemy', and pewter spikes can steal eight different kinds of feruchemical powers.

IIRC, it's actually a bit of a retcon - warmth got messed up on an early version of the table, and if feruchemy were the same as allomancy heat would have been classified as a 'mental' feruchemy. Brandon revised the rest of feruchemy and hemalurgy offscreen to change that.

I'm having trouble finding the quotes on this - it seems like a good mistborn FAQ entry.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Vortaan he/him]

Feruchemy is divided based on physical/cognitive/spiritual realm, which is different than how allomantic powers are divided.

There isn't really an 'enhancement feruchemy', and pewter spikes can steal eight different kinds of feruchemical powers.

IIRC, it's actually a bit of a retcon - warmth got messed up on an early version of the table, and if feruchemy were the same as allomancy heat would have been classified as a 'mental' feruchemy. Brandon revised the rest of feruchemy and hemalurgy offscreen to change that.

 

Huh. Seems to break the otherwise good balance of the table. The reverse order split makes sense, in a way, since the Time and Enhancement sets seem a bit odd compared to the Physical/Mental sets, but breaking them off into Spiritual and what the wiki calls Hybrid... eh.

 

I'd even be happy if Chromium took Feruchemical Spiritual abilities and Gold took Hybrid Feruchemical abilities then, but I guess we'll have to see. Probably one or the other will take other magic systems.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well, coppermind is wrong, then. And somebody with an account should fix it.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=689

Are the usual quadrants (Physical, Mental, Temporal, Enhancement) preserved in Feruchemy and Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson.

No. In Ferchemy, it is based Realmatically. There is a quadrant of Spiritual, a quadrant of Cognitive and two quadrants of Physical.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=839

SATSUONI

2. How is heat a mental attribute in Feruchemy?

BRANDON SANDERSON

2: Because I messed up. I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but that power was supposed to be swapped with another one. (You might be able to guess which one.) However, by the time I realized my mistake, it had already been canonized in print in the trilogy, so I was stuck with it. I've been tempted to go back and correct the error, but it reaches pretty far back. People drawing upon warmth is mentioned in the first book. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that in general the 'physical, mental, etc' things are applied by people--they are boxes that people investigating the magic have used to describe it.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Windrunner he/him]

You don't need an account to alter the wiki. I don't understand the problem you're seeing, so I'm afraid I can't help at all.

[Voidus]

The problem is what to do about Bronze and Electrum, what are classified in the wiki as 'hybrid' metals should really be physical but Electrum and Bronze should really be swapped (Warmth should be classified as physical, Determination as Cognitive)

[Windrunner he/him]

I don't think that we should change that. It's my impression that the "Hybrid" category was created to replace the second group of physical metals. I believe the interview Phantom quoted about the two categories of physical comes from before Brandon discovered the issue with the metal groupings. At the very least, I don't think we should change anything until we consult with Eric. I myself am not nearly as knowledgeable about the Metallic Arts as he is.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I don't think that we should change that. It's my impression that the "Hybrid" category was created to replace the second group of physical metals. I believe the interview Phantom quoted about the two categories of physical comes from before Brandon discovered the issue with the metal groupings. At the very least, I don't think we should change anything until we consult with Eric. I myself am not nearly as knowledgeable about the Metallic Arts as he is.

The thing is, it's canon in HoA that pewter steals feruchemical gold.

Spikes made from other metals steal Feruchemical abilities. For example, all of the original Inquisitors were given a pewter spike, which—after first being pounded through the body of a Feruchemist—gave the Inquisitor the ability to store up healing power.

[Windrunner he/him]

Dunno man, we may be getting into some retconning here. I don't think Brandon would let the creators of the MAG to make up their own category name. Good thing we're not really supposed to understand too much Hemalurgy yet XD

[Voidus]

Yeah I'd say leave it until we can get some harder confirmation from Brandon, it's at the top of my list for any future Q&A's, as it is we have a fair bit of canon that's all contradictory so It's probably best to leave it as is until we can get a more accurate confirmation

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Dunno man, we may be getting into some retconning here. I don't think Brandon would let the creators of the MAG to make up their own category name. Good thing we're not really supposed to understand too much Hemalurgy yet XD

I believe it got confirmed that pewter spikes stealing gold wasn't a mistake.

They're only called hybrid metals in the RPG once. The exact quote is:

There are four Temporal Metals: Gold, Electrum, Cadmium, and Bendalloy. These change perception of time, and how time affects people and the world.

Feruchemists call these Hybrid Metals because they balance the four essential elements of life: health, breath, nutrition, and the will to live

So I think that this is a case of in-universe quadrant titling - feruchemists call them 'hybrid metals', but there isn't really a fundamental difference.

The RPG is based off in-universe knowledge in other areas - it also includes Atium being strictly a temporal allomancy stealing metal. That's confirmed by Word of Brandon as an in-universe misconception (due to atium being too expensive to test thoroughly).

IN HEMALURGY

Atium spikes are incredibly expensive to create, but are also highly versatile.

Depending on where the spike is driven in, it steals, stores, and transfers a single Allomantic Power — that of Atium, or a Power derived from any one of the four Temporal Metals (e.g. the ability to see one’s past, see one’s future, slow time, or accelerate it). Each spike may store only one Power.

Atium Spikes:An Atium spike grants you a single Allomantic Power — Atium, Gold, Electrum, Cadmium, or Bendalloy — with a rating equal to that of the spike. Each spike reduces your Spirit by 1, as normal

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=428#82

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Chaos he/him]

I'm almost absolutely positive that a reliable, very canonical source that gold can in fact steal Feruchemical health, and I know I was the one who asked Peter if it was a mistake about pewter stealing health instead. He said it was not an error. So, I am fairly sure that both can steal it. I could be like 5% wrong because I don't remember where I got that idea about gold stealing it, but I do remember being very surprised that two different metals could steal the same Feruchemical attribute, which I would not have thought if I wasn't absolutely sure gold also could steal health.

 

EDIT: That said, I'm totally okay with the change on the Coppermind that pewter steals health until we figure out exactly where that gold citation came from, as pewter is HoA canonical. Once we can cite it, we'll add that gold does as well.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Chaos

[Phantom Monstrosity]

The only reference I found for gold stealing gold in an interview was from here, and it's kinda indecisive.

 

https://sites.google.com/site/brandonothology/brandonothology/part-3

 

17th Shard: I was trying to write Hemalurgy articles and…we're assuming that gold steals Feruchemic gold just so we can use that as a goldmind…

Brandon: Right, right.

17th Shard: But we don't know. That's why I asked, so, um…

Brandon: That's a PAFO for sure.[/size]

 

 

Did anyone from the interview ever get a chance to ask Peter for clarification on that? 

Actually... *waves arms frantically* Hey Peter, do you have any comments?

 

 

I mean, if pewter and gold work identically, you'd obviously want to use pewter in all your inquisitors since it's cheaper, lighter, and less malleable.

 

There's another passage from HoA that details inquisitor spikes, but it's a little weird in that it can be read either as saying that having any pewter spikes is new, or as having spikes in the heart is new.  But this is an inquisitor with feruchemical speed (which is an inquisitor feruchemical power upgrade), so who even knows. 

 

Maybe it's possible to double up on a spike and the inquisitor didn't have a fresh one handy (i.e. a feruchemist was seconds from dying while right in front of him, might as well steal the power with what you've got)?  Or Ruin could be playing tricks with the system and know how to steal 'human speed' with bronze spikes or some other thing like that. 

Elend glanced back. The Inquisitor had the standard spikes—three pounded between the ribs on each side of the chest. But . . . there was another one—one Elend hadn't seen in any other Inquisitor corpse—pounded directly through the front of this creature's chest.

Lord Ruler! Elend thought. That one would have gone right through its heart. How did it survive? Of course, if two spikes through the brain didn't kill it, then one through the heart probably wouldn't either.

Vin reached down and yanked the spike free. Elend winced. She held it up, frowning. "Pewter," she said.

"Really?" Elend asked.

She nodded. "That makes ten spikes. Two through the eyes and one through the shoulders: all steel. Six through the ribs: two steel, four bronze. Now this, a pewter one—not to mention the one he tried to use on you, which appears to be steel."

 

Actually... in context of what it was trying to do, and what we saw of it... I think this particular inquistor might have lacked feruchemical health entirely (which makes it irrelevant to the question at hand). On a quick skim, I don't see any reference in the preceding battle to it using healing at all. 

Ruin knew this particular inquisitor was disposable; the point was to get Elend spiked and complacent, so having the mook die and let Elend 'win' would make sense. No reason to waste a healing spike, right?

Edited April 26, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Voidus]

Hmm, I was doing a web search in case it was in the annotations or something and the wikipedia entry lists Inquisitors as using gold spikes but no source, I'm sure that someone got confirmation of all the Inquisitor spikes at some point but I can't remember where, was there anything in the MAG?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Hmm, I was doing a web search in case it was in the annotations or something and the wikipedia entry lists Inquisitors as using gold spikes but no source, I'm sure that someone got confirmation of all the Inquisitor spikes at some point but I can't remember where, was there anything in the MAG?

I'm pretty sure wikipedia was copying from coppermind.

Anyway, I found my source

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1729-a-late-breaking-report/

As it turns out, there is an error in the Feruchemical table when Brandon put it in Mistborn 2. If you look closely, Determination (insert metal) doesn't belong in its group. The group that it is in is obviously more physical powers. Determination was supposed to be a mental metal, and Warmth was supposed to be in that Physical group. He just made a mistake originally. But it turns out that Feruchemy obeys different rules than Allomancy, so Brandon isn't retconning it, but saying that Feruchemy works differently now. Apparently there was going to be a table of Feruchemy at the end of Alloy of Law, but it wasn't ready because Isaac kept thinking like an Allomancer. Feruchemy has its own rules (for example, Brandon confirmed that pewter does steal Feruchemical health, probably because that second group of physical Feruchemical powers are also "physical", so pewter can steal them.) Hemalurgy also obeys different rules.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity