theory: skyeels are chasmfiend sperm

[ecohansen]

So, this topic evolved from my CO2 thread, but I thought I'd bring it out here to stand or fall on its own merits.

Shallan's illustration of the chasmfiend asks if the chasmfiends' spren are the same as the skyeels' spren.  So, we know that their spren are at least very similar.  The easiest explanation for this is that skyeels ARE chasmfiends. And if that's the case, maybe larkin ARE greatshells. 

 

 

I can see two ways this could work:

 

Either

1. Skyeels and larkin are early lifestages (larvae) of chasmfiends and greatshells, respectively. (this is not the sperm option)

 

Or

 

2. (this is the sperm option.  See my more detailed description downthread if it's confusing here) There's alternation of generations, like with moss.  There's a haploid generation and a diploid generation, each having a completely different life strategy.  Imagine that egg cells and sperm cells had long and fullfilling independent lives before uniting to become humans.  Skyeels are thus haploid chasmfiend sperm.

 

Related to this, if cremlings have terrestrial and marine forms, as proposed in my CO2 thread,  (2) could be extended into a lifecycle similar to rust fungi.  Cremlings on land reproduce clonally, like the uredinial stage in the magnificent lifecycle of rusts.  If they happen to come near water, they switch to a telial stage, and produce offspring completely unlike themselves. 

 

Any of the above speculations could be a nod to Orson Scott Card's Lusitanian ecosystem, where all organisms have a vegetative lifestage and an animal lifestage.  Since Card has blurbed Sanderson, I'd assume Brandon has read Card.  And of course, there's the similarity in their biographies.  I can't imagine Sanderson having a system as biologically-challenged as Card's, but I can definitely see it as providing an initial idea.

Edited June 12, 2015 by ecohansen

[Surgebound Rainspren he/him]

We already know some information about the life cycles of Chamfiend's and I'm fairly sure (but not certain) that it rules out the first proposal. However we know very little about the life cycles of Skyeel so there might be a chance. 

 

There is the option that the two species evolved from a common ancestor. This might explain why they have similar spren but completely different body types.

[ecohansen]

We know that an earlier lifestage forms the chrysalis that results in the mature adult chasmfiend, but I definitely don't remember encountering where or how chasmfiends lay eggs, or what sort of critter emerges from the egg.  Maybe the pre- and post-chrysalis forms are just different adult instars, and skyeels are the true larvae.

[natc]

It's much simpler to just assume that the spren in question are all just gravityspren and/or some air pressure related spren. Even for the 0.7g gravity chasmfiends and greatshells are described as being way too massive and need some form of spren symbiosis to survive, and skyeels . . . well eels shouldn't fly. That's probably the obvious problem with skyeels from the Earth/Scadrian perspective.

Any further speculated connections would just needlessly complicate the problem. And I find it odd biologically for an eel to develop into a crustacean.

[Tyson]

Upvote for the title.

 

Interesting theory, but i can't see it myself. I agree with the above post.

[ecohansen]

Ah well.  It was a beautiful dream.

[CabbageHead he/him]

Interesting idea, and I do recall the mention of the same/similar spren, which was hardly a random fact thrown in by Brandon. It is probably implying some kinship, whether distant evolutionary relatives or different stages in the life cycle of a single species. Skyeels are extremely common compared to the chasmfiends, but it is common in certain ecological niches on Earth for species to have a shotgun approach to reproduction, producing thousands of offspring per mating and leaving them by themselves, with only a few individuals reaching maturity. If that was the case here though, I think you might more accurately classify the skyeels as something akin to nymphs or tadpoles, rather than sperm. Sperm are not a complete organism capable of survival themselves, they are specialised cells for delivering a DNA package for fusion with an egg. Of course, that is on Earth... Roshar's lifeforms could be far more complicated than we think. Even here on earth, the organisms with the most sophisticated genetic blueprints are those we would think of as simple, like trees.

[ecohansen]

Oh yeah, option 1 was not the inspiration of the title.  In option 1, they'd be larvae rather than nymphs, since nymphs are by definition fairly similar to adults in general morphology.

 

It was option 2 that was the sperm thing, and that was a stretch to get a nice title.  I was comparing chasmfiend/skyeels to organisms like mosses, which have alternation of generations.  That means the diploid phase--the generation with two sets of DNA--the green fuzzy part of the lifecycle that you think of as moss--doesn't directly create another organism like itself.  Instead, it spawns the haploid phase, which is a whole separate organism with a whole separate metabolism that is just as large as the diploid phase but only has ONE set of dna.  Just like our sperm cells and egg cells.  The haploid generation is made up of those big candy-cane-looking thingums that grow above a moss carpet.  The haploid phase then makes a whole mess of spores which are genetically clones of itself.  It sends the spores to the wind, and two haploid spores have to meet up and combine to arrive back at the diploid phase of the lifecycle.  So each generation of moss is the same sort of critter as its grandparents, but looks and acts vastly different from its parents.  That is the sort of cycle I was suggesting.

Edited June 11, 2015 by ecohansen

[CabbageHead he/him]

You obviously have an incredibly superior knowledge of biology than I do, and I shall bow to your wisdom.

[InstantWalrus]

Are there any organisms that use the haploid/diploid split lifestage you describe that arnt plants/fungi?

 

Im pretty sure it doesnt occur in "higher" organisms not even insects (although i could be wrong... animals as far as my biological expertese goes are test subjects and theoretical models and thats about it)

 

im trying to think of a biological advantage to a haploid/diploid lifestage and cant think of one...

 

im pretty sure whatever hatches from a chasmfiend chrysallis is the mating stage of the chasmfiend... otherwise why bother going through the enormous amount of energy required to metamorphose?

 

Are sky eels pre or post chrysallis stage in your theory?

[ecohansen]

One big advantage of having a haploid stage is that it weeds out harmful recessive traits. Since there isn't another gene at the same locus to cover up the bad effects, there are no haploid "carriers" of recessive diseases like cystic fibrosis.  So if you just mutated up a diseased gene, a few of your many many skyeel children will die off, but all of your chasmfiend grandchildren will be completely healthy. A second benefit is the same as the benefits of metamorphosis: it allows your population to utilize a wider range of habitats and resources, making you more resilient to any given perterbation.

 

No earth animals have full-on alternation of generations, but male bees, ants, and wasps are haploid.

 

My basic idea was skyeel--->pre-chrysalis chasmfiend--->post-chrysalis chasmfiend--->skyeel, with the transition from skyeel to pre-chrysalis chasmfiend being either metamorphosis or reproduction, and the transition from full chasmfiend to skyeel being reproduction.

[StormingTexan he/him]

So which came first the  skyeel or the chrysalis? 

Edited June 12, 2015 by StormingTexan

[InstantWalrus]

Ants and bees interesting. So presumably the recessive genes are weeded out through selection. I.e. the cystic fibrosis haploid offspring dont survive long enough to pair with another recessive gened haploid skyeel.

 

I dunno, i think its a cool idea. Certainly if its indicative of an inside reference in the books. But i doubt that BS thought through it that deeply.

 

However i do like the cremling to greatshell multistage theory, i think it gives the highstorms an even more interesting role in the rosharan ecosystem. If the highstorms carry cremlings around who then grow into specialised greatshells/shells based on environment they land in. Would explain why shinovar isnt over run by them at least.

 

It would be good if we knew more about other shelled creatures breeding like domesticated chulls or axe hounds. AFAIK axehounds are reared from pups but i dont remember if it was mentioned whether they were hatched or birthed live. Im pretty sure most great shells and shelled animals on roshar are related... like theyre all mammals except obviously not mammals but in their own group. And as large complex animals id imagine they shared simmilarities in development.

 

Do all shells have gemhearts? Or just Greatshells? Or do greatshells have really big valuable gemhearts whereas smaller shelled animals like chulls are just more valuable than their tiny gem hearts.

 

edit: im an audiobook listener (and insomniac so big fat and fun books are not conducive to me sleeping) which makes it difficult to reread specific bits to look stuff up, but i just thought of an interesting question. Are any of the domesticated shells ever refered to by gender? For example is whats his faces, Shallans brother whos cruel to animals, axehound ever refered to as male or female? Same for chulls? Im pretty sure theyre always described as gender neutral. Sigh going to have to look up gender specific morphology of crabs now thanks op

Edited June 13, 2015 by InstantWalrus

[ecohansen]

Intantwalrus:

Great question.  Nan Balat's axehound is a "she".  I hadn't thought of that.