DeployParachute Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) Just want to point out that there is already a lot of content and discussion on the Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin dynamic over in the Shallan's Relationship thread, and I'd seriously recommend moving some of that discussion over there. I know I've had a lot of good back and forth with others while on the good old S.S. Shalladin, which can be found starting here. Maxal: I'll just take an eensy weensy moment to say that a lot of your new points concerning Shallan/Adolin and Shallan/Kaladin intrigue me, and I can't help but post some kind of rebuttal . You say that it is unfair to assume that Adolin would be unable to understand Shallan or connect with her at a deeper level regarding her pain, because they haven't had the opportunity for her to share with him that side of herself, that they haven't been together long enough for that to happen. Just because it hasn't happened yet does not mean he isn't capable of bonding with her in that way. That being said, I would use that same logic to say that it is unfair to assume that Kaladin is incapable of appreciating Shallan's art in a way that would make her feel like that aspect of her life and personality was valued by him. He certainly admired her work during the chasm scenes (if mostly for their usefulness in rescuing them), but again, he hasn't had much opportunity in which to admire her work in situations that didn't also require him to view her with mistrust and great scrutiny. Now that their relationship and understanding of one another has changed, is it not possible that Kaladin could have more of those opportunities in which to demonstrate his appreciation, if not for art in general, but for her art in particular? Some further thoughts: Adolin - background of privilege, wealth, and prestige, which has shaped many of his positive traits, and some negative. He was raised in a caste of society to appreciate finer things not normally reserved for those whose day to day is more focused on survival. This lifestyle also made it more difficult for him to have any sort of encounters that would leave him broken in the same sense as Shallan and Kaladin, so it may be harder for him to understand pain of that level. Does this make him incapable of it in the future? No, I don't think so, and he most certainly will get better acquainted with such pain over the next few books. Something he can relate to both Shallan and Kaladin in the future, you betcha. Kalladin - background of a somewhat comfortable poorer class. From a small town, mostly made up of the working class in Alethkar. Does Kaladin have to work in the fields for his family's survival? No. Does he still have responsibilities and training that would make leisurely pursuits of the finer arts a luxury of time he does not have? Yes. Does this mean that he, or anyone else of said lower class are incapable of appreciating art? Absolutely not, and in fact, I'm pretty sure WoK flashback scene has something about Tien creating carvings while at his carpentry apprenticeship that Kaladin certainly admired for their beauty, if not for their practicality. I believe Kaladin has it within him to appreciate art enough that he could share it with Shallan. He's just been conditioned by his background to see fine art as something frivolous only enjoyed by the wealthy. I'm sure Shallan's enthusiasm will help undo some of that conditioning. Edited June 2, 2015 by DeployParachute 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1empyrean Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 I think Laral's story is to dependent on the rest of hearthstone for any easy speculation on her future, but I also think that she could potentially be a radiant. Lets face it. We know ALMOST NOTHING about Kaladin's parent's past, and I think that there are factors unknown pertaining to Kaladin and Laral being promised. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emilylime she/her Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 I'm really interested in how she'll react to seeing Kaladin again. I thought about her either crushing on Kaladin as was discussed already (I mean, he's technically lighteyed now, and also veeery muscular ) or despising him. I'm kind of leaning more towards her despising him, to be honest. It would be easy to dislike someone for escaping a bad situation and leaving you stuck there, even if they had no way to help you. And- correct me if it's already been stated in the books somewhere- but she might blame Kaladin and/or Lirin for Rillir's death. Plus, the spheres Lirin took would have belonged to her. All in all, though, I agree with 1empyrean. I feel like we don't know enough about Laral and her personality to do any more than speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Just want to point out that there is already a lot of content and discussion on the Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin dynamic over in the Shallan's Relationship thread, and I'd seriously recommend moving some of that discussion over there. I know I've had a lot of good back and forth with others while on the good old S.S. Shalladin, which can be found starting here. Deploy, I do not think we should revive the old thread... It was closed by moderation as it derailed towards the end. I can take the full blame for this as it was my personal strong dislike of non-canon shipping that caused the discussion to heat up. In any advent, I think it should remain close. I certainly do not want to add to this one... Maxal: I'll just take an eensy weensy moment to say that a lot of your new points concerning Shallan/Adolin and Shallan/Kaladin intrigue me, and I can't help but post some kind of rebuttal . Of course, you are throwing back my argument right at me, now aren't you? You say that it is unfair to assume that Adolin would be unable to understand Shallan or connect with her at a deeper level regarding her pain, because they haven't had the opportunity for her to share with him that side of herself, that they haven't been together long enough for that to happen. Just because it hasn't happened yet does not mean he isn't capable of bonding with her in that way. That being said, I would use that same logic to say that it is unfair to assume that Kaladin is incapable of appreciating Shallan's art in a way that would make her feel like that aspect of her life and personality was valued by him. He certainly admired her work during the chasm scenes (if mostly for their usefulness in rescuing them), but again, he hasn't had much opportunity in which to admire her work in situations that didn't also require him to view her with mistrust and great scrutiny. Now that their relationship and understanding of one another has changed, is it not possible that Kaladin could have more of those opportunities in which to demonstrate his appreciation, if not for art in general, but for her art in particular? For the same reason Adolin will never be able to interact with Shallan on a more intellectual level: he is an illiterate fashion duelist boy who understands nothing of high research. How can he ever rival with Kaladin, the dark and mysterious Kaladin who has proven to be one of the smartest men in the series? How can Adolin stand even the glimmer of a chance? He is, essentially, a superficial capricious jock whose reasoning is completely useless outside the scope of a battle. How could Adolin ever win this one? Well, I feel I may be beaten at my own game Adolin has absolutely nothing to offer to Shallan besides a good name and wealth, which never stands for good long-term relationships. After all, didn't Hollywood made a fortune on selling us the idea the only viable relationships are those sprouted out of deep passion between a feisty girl and a poor introspective bad boy? And doesn't those generally starts by furious hate and endless bickering as the two individuals from far-away world clash until circumstances put them in harms way where they are finally able to see each other's worth? Adolin is doomed. He is even more doomed Brandon will most probably kill him or send him away on a goose hunt via banishment. In any advent, he will never be a predominant character such as Kaladin, so why do I lose my time trying to endlessly defend him? I wonder myself at times. What does Adolin thus have to offer besides wealth and good look? A good heart, a kind and generous spirit, a playful but emphatic personality, an easy laughter, loyalty, a certain taste when it comes to anything artistic inclined and potential... but these things do not matter in front of melodramatic dark and broody Kaladin... They never do: the good nice guy never gets the girl because he is too nice to be interesting. So yes, I agree with your argument. Kaladin can totally learn to appreciate Shallan's art and can totally grow to even moderately like being dragged from one exhibit to the other by enthusiastic Shallan who will never care if her husband does not get it because at least, he can say a quip. Some further thoughts: Adolin - background of privilege, wealth, and prestige, which has shaped many of his positive traits, and some negative. He was raised in a caste of society to appreciate finer things not normally reserved for those whose day to day is more focused on survival. This lifestyle also made it more difficult for him to have any sort of encounters that would leave him broken in the same sense as Shallan and Kaladin, so it may be harder for him to understand pain of that level. Does this make him incapable of it in the future? No, I don't think so, and he most certainly will get better acquainted with such pain over the next few books. Something he can relate to both Shallan and Kaladin in the future, you betcha. Of course, Adolin will never manage to understand Shallan as profoundly as Kaladin because he does not share a tortured childhood with them His mother absolutely did not die when he was a child and his father did not also went to a period of intense grief which lasted for years and years where young Adolin took upon himself to "fix his father" by "becoming a soldier and killing Parshendi". He, of course, did not spend the last 6 years following a ridiculous code which prevented him from following his passion and had for effect of him becoming the laughing stock of the war camp. And of course, the fact the every single young woman he has dated has rejected him: no a single one of them had wanted to go forward and marry Alethkar most eligible bachelor. Not one at all. Of course, we should not forget the fact his "friends" have teamed up to have him killed... So yes, I would say Adolin is a perfectly happy young man who has never endured any hardships at all since he was never physically tortured (being beaten down in a duel does not matter as he was wearing a Plate, so lame) and never had to kill his parents. Little Renarin broke down over being too sick to embrace the Alethi ideal and potentially over having lost his mother, scholarly Jasnah broke down for being a self-asserted atheism, Dalinar broke down because his brother was assassinated while he was drunk, but Adolin does not even have the glimmer of a scratch on his utterly perfect soul. After all, who cares if he is completely unable to develop lasting relationships with his peers? Who cares if the mother he clearly loved died? Who cares if nobody likes him enough to be a true friend or even date him for more than a few weeks? He sure does not care behind his uncaring outside persona, strength and bravado... I do in retrospect agree with you. Adolin cannot understand the pain Shallan (or Kaladin) lived through. Perhaps if he had killed Sadeas as a 10 years old child, he would have stand a chance... Kalladin - background of a somewhat comfortable poorer class. From a small town, mostly made up of the working class in Alethkar. Does Kaladin have to work in the fields for his family's survival? No. Does he still have responsibilities and training that would make leisurely pursuits of the finer arts a luxury of time he does not have? Yes. Does this mean that he, or anyone else of said lower class are incapable of appreciating art? Absolutely not, and in fact, I'm pretty sure WoK flashback scene has something about Tien creating carvings while at his carpentry apprenticeship that Kaladin certainly admired for their beauty, if not for their practicality. I believe Kaladin has it within him to appreciate art enough that he could share it with Shallan. He's just been conditioned by his background to see fine art as something frivolous only enjoyed by the wealthy. I'm sure Shallan's enthusiasm will help undo some of that conditioning. Yes I do agree. Kaladin can learn to appreciate art even if it represents everything he has spend a lifetime hating, but true enough he was able to marvel in front of the carved horse his baby beloved brother made. Kaladin can thus appreciate enough art to work with Shallan whereas Adolin will sure never be smart enough to interest Shallan on the long run. Kaladin will thus ban away his depressive mood in order to follow gleefully over-eager Shallan into any of her endeavor. I can happen. Brandon can make everything happen and if wants Kaladin and Shallan to happen, there is no argument I can bring forward to refute it. I just hope I managed to write the story in a different way to steer some spirits. Sarcasm was fully intended with the objective of being funny is not reflective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeployParachute Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Oh. I did not realize that thread was closed down? Bummer, because I thought that despite what may have happened with respect to some of the more heated posts, the thread itself contained a lot of good, well thought out content on the subject from a variety of members and perspectives. Seems a shame that all of that is discounted due to a few mispoken or heated words. And I certainly had no intention of causing anyone to relive bad memories regarding a thread, I was just trying to point someone towards a thread that was more dedicated to a topic they seemed interested in contributing to. Sorry if my comments on the old thread seemed insensitive to that. As for the rest of the post, I did get a little concerned about the sarcastic tone until I saw your last line. I thought my post had communicated my openness to both possibilities of Shadolin and Shalladin, and thought for a moment that I was losing my touch. I am, however, left thinking that maybe your sarcastic humor response is a signal that you're tired of beating this dead horse, which I can understand and respect. Just want you to know that I don't respond to your comments on this topic because I'm looking to rub your face in anything, or give the impression that I know more about what is to come in the books. It is always because I find your posts to be very civil, respectful, thought provoking, and fun to engage in. Edited June 4, 2015 by DeployParachute 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 Oh. I did not realize that thread was closed down? Bummer, because I thought that despite what may have happened with respect to some of the more heated posts, the thread itself contained a lot of good, well thought out content on the subject from a variety of members and perspectives. Seems a shame that all of that is discounted due to a few mispoken or heated words. And I certainly had no intention of causing anyone to relive bad memories regarding a thread, I was just trying to point someone towards a thread that was more dedicated to a topic they seemed interested in contributing to. Sorry if my comments on the old thread seemed insensitive to that. Oh gee no. Don't worry about me. You absolutely do not need to apologize for anything. The old thread derailed. Perhaps it was not closed, but it was moderated and since then, everyone has avoided it. I didn't think there was a need to bring it back. Besides, I also felt there currently is quite a few new comers and I do know it may be tedious to go through an old 26 pages thread without being able to add to it. My personal feelings on the matter absolutely did not come into play on my previous response, so again, I have to apologized for making you think you had caused me harm in any way. As for bad memories, I am sadly old enough to take full amend of what I have said and how I have said it. It was badly received and whereas I cannot control how my interlocutors will interpret my posts, I should be wise enough to stay away from troubled discussions. Alas, I have yet to figure out this one out. As for the rest of the post, I did get a little concerned about the sarcastic tone until I saw your last line. I thought my post had communicated my openness to both possibilities of Shadolin and Shalladin, and thought for a moment that I was losing my touch. I am, however, left thinking that maybe your sarcastic humor response is a signal that you're tired of beating this dead horse, which I can understand and respect. Just want you to know that I don't respond to your comments on this topic because I'm looking to rub your face in anything, or give the impression that I know more about what is to come in the books. It is always because I find your posts to be very civil, respectful, thought provoking, and fun to engage in. I thought sarcasm could help fuel my point, but it perhaps was not the wisest choice and it was not an attack nor an insult to your openest. If you take an old argument, you shake it around and turn it upside down, you may get a new perspective, so it is what I was trying to do. It is always risky business to use such a tool on the Internet (or even in real life for that matter) as not everyone respond positively it, but I thought it was a nice post. I hope some people thought it fun to read. I had used the same arguments over and over again, so I tried for different ones. Nothing pertaining Adolin will ever be a dead horse for me, though I am saddened by the thought my love of this character may not be shared by the author (not to say Brandon does not love the character, but just circumstances and stuff... I feel I am investing myself in a character doomed to remain the side-kick to the true heroes). I have been annoyed by a certain number of things pertaining Adolin lately and none have to do with future relationship... so there was an inherent background to the sarcasm as well. Provoking? Me? Never Provoking is a tool, a dangerous one, but a tool nonetheless. It makes people think twice. It makes people read me. It makes them read twice perhaps. It fuels discussions, but it also makes people fear me or hate me or whatever, which I sometimes deal with nicely and sometimes not. Still, I should be wiser, but it was too fun to write So feel free to respond, should you wish to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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