A starting point

[cleric]

I have been searching around for the basics to a lot of theories. The Herolds being the main one. People saying that Herolds are in the story as other characters throws me. I accept this as there are Quotes from brandon proving this. However them being people in the series. Are they the Herolds reborn? are they Immortal and just have new names? I have been looking around and would appreciate any info on this. I may add more questions as I explore more and more.

[dj26792]

Brandon has confirmed that there were more heralds in the book than we thought there were (the number we thought being 3, Jezrien, Kalak and Taln.)

This thread contains some discussion as well as several quotes from Brandon on the topic.

Just filling you in a bit on the Heralds, they are immortal, so its the same heralds who walked away from the oathpact still hanging around in Roshar just chilling, or going insane, or maybe even doing stuff, or going insane, we're pretty sure most of them are doing two of those 4 option (going insane). However they would have assumed fake names, and may or may not look like the portraits we have of them in the book, due to inaccuracies brought in over time and also the fact that in 4 500 years a man can grow a pretty awesome beard and shave it off several times over.

The most common theories are that Shallash has been referenced as the lady hiring people to destroy the statues of her, and a tad more controversial, Jezrien being Niter, the head of Dalinar's bodyguards, another fairly common theory is Ishi as the beggar in the prologue.

[ptoss1]

Or maybe Shallan is actually Shallash reincarnated... baseless, but it explains... oh wait, the Shardblade. Dun dun dun...

I don't really think Shallash hiring people to destroy any likenesses of her is plausible. It's been over 4500 years, so any drawings or statues should be reinterpretations at best, plus there's bound to be thousands of art pieces all over the place. Either she can track them down magically, or else it's going to take a hell of a long time.

My theory is that Shallan is Shallash's reincarnation. That's why her father treated her so well over the years, and when he revealed Shallash's Honorblade to her, Shallan kills him out of anger or for whatever reason. Probably also why the Ghostbloods supported Shallan's father. They probably have a few Honorblades, but realized they couldn't be used by anyone except for descendents of the Heralds, thus Shallan. When her father gives her the Honorblade however, a part of Shallash's soul possesses Shallan, killing her father. I bet Shallan is closest living female descendent of Shallash, which makes her able to use the Honorblade, which requires a woman since Shallash is a girl. Or maybe the Ghostbloods are trying to save the world by reviving the Heralds... maybe

Well rant over.

By the way, I don't think the Heralds are immortal in the traditional sense. In my first reading, I thought that wherever they went was a place that reconstructed their bodies, perhaps making them anew for the next Desolation. They got to keep their memories through an extremely painful process, thus Kalak quit, but their descendents still possess some part of the original Heralds' souls. Since Taln never quit the Oathpact, he fought the next Desolation until Odium or the Voidbringers realized the other Heralds had left. They then kidnap Taln, trapping him in a prison or somewhere, waiting until the world forgot them so they can destroy Roshar... but then he escapes.

Edited January 19, 2013 by ptoss1

[Meg]

By the way, I don't think the Heralds are immortal in the traditional sense. In my first reading, I thought that wherever they went was a place that reconstructed their bodies, perhaps making them anew for the next Desolation.

No ranting, but:

Even after all these centuries, Jezrien looked young, like a man barely in his thirtieth year. His short black beard was neatly trimmed. ... Though he hadn't worn a crown in centuries, his royal manner lingered.

I don't have an idea what happened during Damnation, but I'm quite sure the personalities/bodies stay what they were.

An obscure thought: Somewhere Dalinar (or Hoid?) mentioned the Aimians, which could have been disassambled and assembled anew. Maybe in Damnation something similar (but painful) happened to the Heralds. Hmm, no: If I remember right, the "souls" of the Aimians were changed too what surely don't happen to the Heralds.

Another request: How would you define "immortality in the traditional sense"? To live an endless life if not being killed by -- what? Accident? Murder? Or is immortality the possibility to pass one's immortal part (soul) to another body and to live on this way? That would be an incarnation, which would make it possible that Shallan is Shallash's reincarnation. But then: "we" think, Shallash is still around, what contradicts the reincarnation-theory.

[dj26792]

Traditional immortality is the one body living on forever and that body may or may not be invincible as well.

ptoss, I'm really not sure how to respond to your post with concrete evidence I did a quick search and couldn't find anything to suggest either way, apart from that quote from the prologue that Meg quoted, 'even after all these centuries...' That wouldn't be relevant if it was a new body every time. Certainly so far as I can tell no one has ever asked Brandon a question about whether or not the heralds are being reincarnated or traditionally immortal.

What I will say is that I firmly believe your theory is incorrect, even if it is the most interesting theory I've seen on the heralds in a long time, possibly ever.

I'm pretty sure that when the heralds walked away from the oathpact they avoided going to 'damnation' where ever that is (a topic for discussion) by simply walking away and were they to die, I feel that they would probably end up back there rather than reincarnated. That said, as I've already said I have no quotes that really back that up, so take it as you will, and please keep coming with new and original theories, they are always fun to discuss.

[Cayden]

Or maybe Shallan is actually Shallash reincarnated... baseless, but it explains... oh wait, the Shardblade. Dun dun dun...

Pretty sure it is the Anti Art Lady. Shallash's divine attributes are Creativity and Honesty. Add in 4500 Years of self-loathing and a little madness and you might well get someone who's honesty will not permit people to raise her to such lofty heights when the Heralds know exactly what they did and why they did it. Or maybe the face just doesnt match her own or she doesnt want people creating objects with her image.

Either way I think that they are immortal, for as long as Honor has even a touch of power on Roshar, they must have been seriously empowered by Honor in the first place for them to become his Champions.

Also, if Shallan's father had an Honorblade, I very much doubt that he would have kept it gathering dust. Those things are a lot more powerful than a regular Shardblade, I would be more than a little surprised if they could only be used by the bloodlines/reincarnations of Heralds for many reasons, but foremost I think is because I think to use them fully most likely takes something along the lines of the words that the Radiants have to say, except to a much stronger degree. I.e The Oathpact, That in my opinion of what we have seen so far is more important than reincarnation/bloodlines.

[ptoss1]

Traditional immortality is the one body living on forever and that body may or may not be invincible as well.

I'm pretty sure that when the heralds walked away from the oathpact they avoided going to 'damnation' where ever that is (a topic for discussion) by simply walking away and were they to die, I feel that they would probably end up back there rather than reincarnated. That said, as I've already said I have no quotes that really back that up, so take it as you will, and please keep coming with new and original theories, they are always fun to discuss.

While I don't know where/what Damnation is when referring to the place that Heralds go after death or Desolation, I believe that Honorblades are intrinsically tied to the power of the Heralds as well as the source of their supposed immortality. Here are some reasons why:

1) If the Heralds die in every Desolation, then why don't the Voidbringers, assuming they're Parshendi or at least their overlords of some kind, pick up the Heralds' Honorblades and use them themselves? Of course they wouldn't be able to if the Honorblades didn't appear beside the Heralds' dead bodies or if the bodies themselves dissapear/teleport to wherever it is they go after death. So there are some possibilities as to why this is:

a - the Voidbringers and their minions can't use Shardblades

b - the Honorblades disappear after death

c - the Honorblades do appear after death, but besides the Heralds' bodies after they've been teleported elsewhere

d - Honorblades can only be used by Heralds

2) The fact that the Heralds left the Honorblades in the first place probably means they had something to do with the Oathpact. Since I don't see why they HAD to leave them behind, considering they're immensely powerful and all, I believe they were the objects that forced the Heralds to go to damnation. This would fit it in with the fact that Heralds kept their Honorblades after death. So if the Honorblades were the source of all the Heralds' powers, given by Honor, and linked to the Heralds themselves by some Oathpact, then essentially the Heralds gave up their powers when they left the Honorblades behind, leaving them mortal.

[Meg]

While I don't know where/what Damnation is when referring to the place that Heralds go after death or Desolation, I believe that Honorblades are intrinsically tied to the power of the Heralds as well as the source of their supposed immortality. Here are some reasons why:

1) If the Heralds die in every Desolation, then why don't the Voidbringers, assuming they're Parshendi or at least their overlords of some kind, pick up the Heralds' Honorblades and use them themselves? Of course they wouldn't be able to if the Honorblades didn't appear beside the Heralds' dead bodies or if the bodies themselves dissapear/teleport to wherever it is they go after death. So there are some possibilities as to why this is:

a - the Voidbringers and their minions can't use Shardblades

b - the Honorblades disappear after death

c - the Honorblades do appear after death, but besides the Heralds' bodies after they've been teleported elsewhere

d - Honorblades can only be used by Heralds

Please don't feel offended when I reply with a quote:

Honorblades are technically a type of Shardblade but are likely more powerful. Honorblades can also be summoned and dismissed like a Shardblade. However, if the Herald holding the blade dies, the weapon itself vanishes too. It also doesn't automatically vanish when the holder accidentally lets go of it. One does not need to be a Herald in order to use an Honorblade either.

(source: Honorblade)

So there is no real answer to your possibility a. But b, c and d are replied to, I think.

2) The fact that the Heralds left the Honorblades in the first place probably means they had something to do with the Oathpact. Since I don't see why they HAD to leave them behind, considering they're immensely powerful and all, I believe they were the objects that forced the Heralds to go to damnation. This would fit it in with the fact that Heralds kept their Honorblades after death. So if the Honorblades were the source of all the Heralds' powers, given by Honor, and linked to the Heralds themselves by some Oathpact, then essentially the Heralds gave up their powers when they left the Honorblades behind, leaving them mortal.

Interesting thought about leaving the blades means giving up (some of their) powers. But as the Heralds are said to be immortal (and stroll around nowadays), I think they didn't lose their immortality too.

If so, they would have died around 4,450 years ago. I don't think the image of being immortal would last that long.

[Dros]

Someone , I believe it may have been dj, made a great point in another thread about this. If the Heralds are still around, they're probably carrying around quite a bit of guilt and after enduring hell, literally hell, they've probably got a nasty case of PTSD and a dose of madness. So destroying statues and images celebrating your visage might easily be something a guilt-ridden, half-crazed person might be driven to.

[Meg]

Someone , I believe it may have been dj, made a great point in another thread about this. If the Heralds are still around, they're probably carrying around quite a bit of guilt and after enduring hell, literally hell, they've probably got a nasty case of PTSD and a dose of madness. So destroying statues and images celebrating your visage might easily be something a guilt-ridden, half-crazed person might be driven to.

I knew I've read the referred posting, but couldn't find it when I read this here first; now I found it Crazy Heralds or Heralds with PTSD.

[Dros]

I knew I've read the referred posting, but couldn't find it when I read this here first; now I found it Crazy Heralds or Heralds with PTSD.

Yes! That's it exactly!

[Cheese Ninja]

The most common theories are that Shallash has been referenced as the lady hiring people to destroy the statues of her, and a tad more controversial, Jezrien being Niter, the head of Dalinar's bodyguards, another fairly common theory is Ishi as the beggar in the prologue.

I haven't seen any theories that the beggar is Ishi, besides my tiny add-on to my slightly crazy theory that Thaidakar is Ishi/Ishar. A few of us like the idea of the beggar as a Herald, but we haven't got anything narrowing it down to any of the four male Heralds besides Taln. Also, I like the idea of Shalash meeting with another Herald while she was in town.

Or maybe Shallan is actually Shallash reincarnated... baseless, but it explains... oh wait, the Shardblade. Dun dun dun...I don't really think Shallash hiring people to destroy any likenesses of her is plausible. It's been over 4500 years, so any drawings or statues should be reinterpretations at best, plus there's bound to be thousands of art pieces all over the place. Either she can track them down magically, or else it's going to take a hell of a long time. My theory is that Shallan is Shallash's reincarnation. That's why her father treated her so well over the years, and when he revealed Shallash's Honorblade to her, Shallan kills him out of anger or for whatever reason. Probably also why the Ghostbloods supported Shallan's father. They probably have a few Honorblades, but realized they couldn't be used by anyone except for descendents of the Heralds, thus Shallan. When her father gives her the Honorblade however, a part of Shallash's soul possesses Shallan, killing her father. I bet Shallan is closest living female descendent of Shallash, which makes her able to use the Honorblade, which requires a woman since Shallash is a girl. Or maybe the Ghostbloods are trying to save the world by reviving the Heralds... maybeWell rant over.By the way, I don't think the Heralds are immortal in the traditional sense. In my first reading, I thought that wherever they went was a place that reconstructed their bodies, perhaps making them anew for the next Desolation. They got to keep their memories through an extremely painful process, thus Kalak quit, but their descendents still possess some part of the original Heralds' souls. Since Taln never quit the Oathpact, he fought the next Desolation until Odium or the Voidbringers realized the other Heralds had left. They then kidnap Taln, trapping him in a prison or somewhere, waiting until the world forgot them so they can destroy Roshar... but then he escapes.

Gah, that's messy. Did you actually look at the preponderance of evidence from the Baxil interlude that points to his boss being Shalash?

She's not hiring people to destroy artwork of her, she's doing it herself, because she finds it cathartic. She doesn't actually want to kill herself, for fear that she'd return to place they suffer between Desolations, so she instead destroys herself in effigy. She's not the most balanced person at this point in her life, and the other Heralds are probably a bit screwy as well.

I'll lay it out real quick, should just be able to copy/paste from an earlier thread:

“A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal.”—Dated Palahevan, 1173, 73 seconds pre-death. Subject: a beggar of some renown, known for his elegant songs.

This was the Hallowed Hall, the place where a wealthy man placed images of his Kadasix for reverence. The mistress walked up to the first piece of art. The painting depicted Epan, Lady of Dreams. It was beautiful, a masterpiece of gold leaf on black canvas.

“I’ve been thinking of seeking the Old Magic,” Baxil said, partially to keep himself from cringing as the mistress moved on to gouge out the eyes of a fine bust.

Herald=Kadasix, Jezrien=Prime Kadasix

Shalash's statue is missing in Szeth's prologue.

Baxil's interlude has double Shalash for the chapter heading. Only three chapters have double Shalash.

She wasn’t Emuli–she didn’t even seem Makabaki, though she had dark skin and long, beautiful black hair. She had eyes like a Shin, but she was tall and lean, like an Alethi. Av thought she was a mixed breed. Or so he said when they dared talk about such things. The mistress had good ears. Strangely good ears.

Baxil has no idea what her ethnicity is, because she originated before the current ethnicities came about.

[dj26792]

I saw a few people discussing it because the beggar has a large beard and so does Ishi, I think its in the thread I linked in my first post in the topic, it seemed like no one had any arguments against it other than he could have shaved.

That could also have been because no one could be bothered.

And that is an excellent presentation of the argument for Shallash as Baxil's mistress I've never seen it all together like that, that makes it seem even more convincing than I remember it being.

[ptoss1]

So where the hell has Taln been for the last 4500 years? He's obviously not fighting the Desolations anymore since Roshar seems to be alright.

[Cheese Ninja]

He's been getting tortured in the afterlife the whole time. He's probably in even worse mental shape than the other Heralds.

Jezrien nodded to the ring of weapons. “I was chosen to wait for you. We weren’t certain if you had survived. A…a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end.”

Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. “What will that do?”

“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations."

“The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.”—Dated Palaheses, 1173, unknown seconds pre-death. Subject: a wealthy lighteyes. Sample collected secondhand. (201) [5-1-1]

The relationship between the return of the Heralds and the coming of a Desolation isn't well understood by us at this point in the series, but I agree with the others who say that they are related. At least one person on here believes that it's simply a matter of the Herald holding out through their torture until they give up, and that triggers both their return and the Desolation, but I think it's probably a bit more complicated than that.

[Dros]

I've seen the Ishi theory a few times, but it's been nothing but conjecture.

The point about ethnicity is kind of interesting, though. In terms of evolution, Baxil's mistress, who probably is a Herald, is a mixture of the current races on Roshar...usually it would be the other way around, no? Usually over such a long period of time, one would observe a mixture forming and sharp contrasts between races begin to disappear. That doesn't seem to be the case on Roshar. If anything, the contrasts seem to be getting more sharp as time moves along. Might this have something to do with the Shards' realtionships on Roshar?

[cleric]

I dont know if this possibility has been raised but I could not find any so:

Could Teft be a herald?

He keeps his past under tighter wraps than Kaladin for starters. Has experience as a soldier. knows a lot about the radiance and what their abilities are. He says that it is from legends and stories from his parents but has some bitterness there. Maybe because he was apart of the fall of the radiance. It would also fit with why he always says Kaladin isnt one of the radiance yet.

Lastly when asked how he became a bridge man he said it was where he deserved to be. As if he was seeking punishment for something.

All in all pure speculation, but I think its possible.

[Voidus]

Could Teft be a herald?

He keeps his past under tighter wraps than Kaladin for starters. Has experience as a soldier. knows a lot about the radiance and what their abilities are. He says that it is from legends and stories from his parents but has some bitterness there. Maybe because he was apart of the fall of the radiance. It would also fit with why he always says Kaladin isnt one of the radiance yet.

Lastly when asked how he became a bridge man he said it was where he deserved to be. As if he was seeking punishment for something.

From his own perspective we have it that he learned it from his family, although it could be argued that he's just insane. But he also doesn't seem to know the exact abilities of the Radiants either.

[cleric]

From his own perspective we have it that he learned it from his family, although it could be argued that he's just insane. But he also doesn't seem to know the exact abilities of the Radiants either.

I may have missed this. However he could have learned it from his family, and his family died thousands of years ago. Also it could be insanity that he created a new life and forgot a lot of his past. Then again he could be just a bridge man

[name_here]

Teft's perspective seems to indicate that he was part of an organization dedicated to the Knights Radiant, but he got them all killed somehow. The organization, not the Knights.

Edited January 23, 2013 by name_here

[happyman]

Teft is unlikely to be a Herald, if for no other reason than we have seen a viewpoint from him and he doesn't seem to know enough. Even insane, I would expect them to have more than that.

The point about ethnicity is kind of interesting, though. In terms of evolution, Baxil's mistress, who probably is a Herald, is a mixture of the current races on Roshar...usually it would be the other way around, no? Usually over such a long period of time, one would observe a mixture forming and sharp contrasts between races begin to disappear. That doesn't seem to be the case on Roshar. If anything, the contrasts seem to be getting more sharp as time moves along. Might this have something to do with the Shards' realtionships on Roshar?

The concept of race is a tricky one, biologically speaking. In humans, certain traits tend to pop up more in certain areas, and while that may have a deeper cause, most often it's just chance. What we call races are actually extremely fluid. In this case, I think the description is saying that she doesn't fit any of the current correlations between traits and culture that have randomly popped up in relatively recent history.

[ptoss1]

Teft is unlikely to be a Herald, if for no other reason than we have seen a viewpoint from him and he doesn't seem to know enough. Even insane, I would expect them to have more than that.

The concept of race is a tricky one, biologically speaking. In humans, certain traits tend to pop up more in certain areas, and while that may have a deeper cause, most often it's just chance. What we call races are actually extremely fluid. In this case, I think the description is saying that she doesn't fit any of the current correlations between traits and culture that have randomly popped up in relatively recent history.

Race is weird. Most of what we recognize today as race is really just a set of visual traits combined together. There are oddities all over the place though, mostly in central Asia, eastern Europe, and western China. Personally I just define a race as unable to procreate with another species, so technically everybody on Roshar is human.

Here's what an Alethi might look like in real life. Probably more tan and less dark though. But really cool eyes.

Blonde Mongolian, probably a mix between Russian/Polish and Mongolian. Apparently her parents look 100% Mongolian, but there aren't any pictures, so I'm pretty skeptical about that. It's rare enough as it is between 50/50 mixes.

Chinese guy from western China with grey/blue/green eyes. Apparently the area he lives in was supposed to have been visited by a captured Roman legion way way back. Most likely he's just part central asian or got so old his eye pigments died or something.

Here's Hamid Rahimi, a proffesional Afghan boxer. Ethnically he's Hazara, or at least his culture is. Notice how he has an epicanthic fold: the folded skin usually attributed to eastern Asians. Not really how you would picture an Afghani to look. He could pass for a Hungarian or a Russian/Chinese hybrid.

It's incredible that the kingdoms even kept their names through 4500 years, not to mention genetic drift. Assimilation and cultural competition all play a role to determine who looks like what. For example the Shinovar probably have this problem a lot less than everybody else on Roshar, since their land is geographically inaccessible most of the time. Less worries about war and such. Plus Rosharians all depend on them for stuff like chicken, horses, strawberries, etc. In the long run, that means less genetic drift, less assimilation. Jah Keved/Alethkar on the other hand, might switch lands a lot, experiencing rape, cultural synthesis, shared relgions - Vorinism, and all that other random weirdness.

Edited January 23, 2013 by ptoss1

[Cheese Ninja]

Actually, Aimians and Parshendi are humanoid, but I don't think they can interbreed with the humans. I guess you mean all the other Roshar ethnicities when you say that you consider all of them to be one race?

I've always thought of the Shin as being a bit East Asian in their appearance, since Shin are described as being slighter and younger looking than the actually are, which is similar to how we think of many of the people from the Orient.

[Meg]

Actually, Aimians and Parshendi are humanoid, but I don't think they can interbreed with the humans. I guess you mean all the other Roshar ethnicities when you say that you consider all of them to be one race?

I've always thought of the Shin as being a bit East Asian in their appearance, since Shin are described as being slighter and younger looking than the actually are, which is similar to how we think of many of the people from the Orient.

Now I'm worried. What is "humanoid"? Looking like humans but not being such? I'll ask because I just read that Parshendi and Aimians are no humans (Forum Q&A). If I mix up something, please correct me.

[ptoss1]

Now I'm worried. What is "humanoid"? Looking like humans but not being such? I'll ask because I just read that Parshendi and Aimians are no humans (Forum Q&A). If I mix up something, please correct me.

Well I don't think we know if Parshmen could interbreed with other races, but I don't think it ever happens because you know, they're apparently mentally retarded and slaves. I'm not even sure how Parshmen procreate. Like are they ordered to or is it instinctual or do they just live forever. Weird stuff.