Do Decisions or Actions bring magic?

[Kurkistan he/him]

I honestly cannot recall if this has been settled yet, so feel free to slap me down, but I remember discussions about whether it is decisions or actions that attract spren/bring about magical ability on Roshar.

As a result of skulking over on the WoT boards (don't ask why), I found this little gem:

"[brandon] talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In l lot of his systems people are trough some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris trough the Shaod, In mistborn it's genetic, in tWoK it depends on what some one has done."

So it is actions, not just decisions or intentions, that take the day. Aristotle would approve. This does leave open the possibility that the actions have to be taken for the right reasons (netting maximum Aristotelian approval points), though. Personally, I think that you do have to act for the right reasons. Kaladin protecting young soldiers so that he can start a murder-cult probably wouldn't have attracted Syl.

Discuss.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Dros]

But to access the power, one still has to speak certian words aloud for whatever reason. Kaladin was goaded by Syl and an unknown voice to speak the words that sparked in his mind. Perhaps the way one intends to act, or has acted in the past, allows the words to spark. HOWEVER he must speak an oath to continue to act on those noble, or honorable, intentions to actually gain access to one of the Shard's magic systems.

I believe it's more complicated than just what one has done in the past.

[Meg]

"[brandon] talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In l lot of his systems people are trough some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris trough the Shaod, In mistborn it's genetic, in tWoK it depends on what some one has done."

(emphasizes are mine)

Nice, thanks for this quote.

IMHO, this statement is comprehensible. The people are "invested with magic powers". (really all? this would be another question to think about)

Anyway, this investment doesn't make all invested people able to use their magical powers by intuition. Some can, some cannot.

There are different causes that show up the (existent) powers to the people. So for example:

• The Elantrians are struck by the Shaod. "Now" the invested magic can theoretically be used by the Elantrians. But: They have to learn to use the magic (in this case to correctly draw the Aons).
  
• The Scadrials Snap. Taking Vin as example, then we see that Allomancy could be used unwittingly, but only to a small degree. To act as an full Allomancer (either as Misting or as Mistborn) one has to learn to use their skills (when to burn which metal for the best effect).
  
• On Roshar -- I stay with Kaladin as an example here -- we see that his "magic" turns out much earlier (just unwittingly) than he gives his "oath" during the Tower Battle.
  

But to access the power, one still has to speak certain words aloud for whatever reason.

Me, I think Kaladin's trigger was this very first fight with Joster (IIRC). Later, when being in the army, he didn't speak any oaths, but was already called "Kaladin Stormblessed" because of his incredible fighting which focused on his will to keep his people alive (< his 'decision').

So I think that it is not absolutely necessary to speak this words aloud, but to become aware of them (for a further access to (t)his powers) what may be steadied by spoken word (and not only thoughts).

[Kurkistan he/him]

But to access the power, one still has to speak certian words aloud for whatever reason. Kaladin was goaded by Syl and an unknown voice to speak the words that sparked in his mind. Perhaps the way one intends to act, or has acted in the past, allows the words to spark. HOWEVER he must speak an oath to continue to act on those noble, or honorable, intentions to actually gain access to one of the Shard's magic systems.

I believe it's more complicated than just what one has done in the past.

I'm going to psuedo-side-with Meg on this one, but not really .

I think "what some one [sic] has done" is probably speaking more towards how one behaves and intends to behave than a simple "perform act A, get power B." So Kaladin behaves in accordance with the ideals of the Windrunners, so he attracts and bonds with Syl. Kaladin swears to behave even more in accordance with those ideals (while in the process of acting on that oath), and gets more power. This is similar to my theory that Kaladin the murder-cult leader wouldn't have attracted Syl: it's the kind of person he is as well as his end actions; but you still need both. Once again, Aristotle would be pleased with Brandon, if I'm right.

Alternatively, it could be the case that Kaladin just needed to act a certain way in order to attract Syl, and then the rules change, like Elantrians getting Elantrified by the Shaod for (presumably) being devoted to something, and then having to use a completely different mechanism (learning and writing Aons) to go any further.

Nice, thanks for this quote.

Your welcome. Skulking ftw!

IMHO, this statement is comprehensible. The people are "invested with magic powers". (really all? this would be another question to think about)

Anyway, this investment doesn't make all invested people able to use their magical powers by intuition. Some can, some cannot.

There are different causes that show up the (existent) powers to the people. So for example:

• The Elantrians are struck by the Shaod. "Now" the invested magic can theoretically be used by the Elantrians. But: They have to learn to use the magic (in this case to correctly draw the Aons).
  
• The Scadrials Snap. Taking Vin as example, then we see that Allomancy could be used unwittingly, but only to a small degree. To act as an full Allomancer (either as Misting or as Mistborn) one has to learn to use their skills (when to burn which metal for the best effect).
  
• On Roshar -- I stay with Kaladin as an example here -- we see that his "magic" turns out much earlier (just unwittingly) than he gives his "oath" during the Tower Battle.
  

Interesting approach. I drew on this a bit for my "alternate" model above, though I'm not particularly enthralled by it. The examples you cite seem to just be learning how to shoot web, which everyone in all the magic systems seems to do the same way: a combination of trial and error, learning from another source, and instinct. Kaladin's oath makes him better at using his magic system, but doesn't really have anything to do with him learning how to use it--much like Vin's spike, actually.

What is your "really all?" parenthetical referencing?

Edited January 11, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Meg]

I'm going to pseudo-side-with Meg on this one, but not really ;)/>.

I'm really pleased.

Interesting approach. I drew on this a bit for my "alternate" model above, though I'm not particularly enthralled by it. The examples you cite seem to just be learning how to shoot web ...

Stone the crows!

What is your "really all?" parenthetical referencing?

I'm not sure how to read this:

In a lot of his systems people are ...

Does this generally mean, that everybody is invested? Or does it mean that "some people" are invested?

And now I'm too tired to try to catch my thoughts and put them together to a posting. Too, because my thoughts may be redundant or obsolete when somebody enlightened me for my questions.

Sleep well! :-)

[Kurkistan he/him]

Stone the crows!

*Looks up expression. Laughs evilly*

I'm not sure how to read this:

In a lot of his systems people are ...

Does this generally mean, that everybody is invested? Or does it mean that "some people" are invested?

And now I'm too tired to try to catch my thoughts and put them together to a posting. Too, because my thoughts may be redundant or obsolete when somebody enlightened me for my questions.

Sleep well! :-)

I think he means "magic system" by systems, and "people" is understood as "people who get magic." Remember that this is a somewhat incomprehensible paraphrasing from memory, so I wouldn't get caught up on odd turns of phrase.

[Meg]

*Looks up expression. Laughs evilly*

I asked dict.cc for "Was es nicht alles gibt!" and got this expression. :-( Looking further around I found another one: "It's amazing what's out there!" which describes it better, I think. Sorry for confusion.

I think he means "magic system" by systems, and "people" is understood as "people who get magic." Remember that this is a somewhat incomprehensible paraphrasing from memory, so I wouldn't get caught up on odd turns of phrase.

That's exactly what I thought about, so my musing may be obsolete.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I asked dict.cc for "Was es nicht alles gibt!" and got this expression. :-( Looking further around I found another one: "It's amazing what's out there!" which describes it better, I think. Sorry for confusion.

Ah, I see. Well, there's a decent chance that people will swear in some way whenever they see a TvTropes link--because they just lost several hours of their lives right there--which is why I laughed evilly.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Meg]

Ah, I see. Well, there's a decent chance that people will swear in some way whenever they see a TvTropes link--because they just lost several hours of their lives right there--which is why I laughed evilly.

Oh. I'd like to make it clear that surely I didn't want to swear. I hope I'm rehabilitated.

There's another thought running around in my brain: Isn't every action the result of a decision?

[Kurkistan he/him]

Oh. I'd like to make it clear that surely I didn't want to swear. I hope I'm rehabilitated.

I wasn't judging, so no worries. Your reputation is as pristine as ever.

There's another thought running around in my brain: Isn't every action the result of a decision?

Yes, but the idea I'm holding onto right now is that you have to act (or at least be capable of acting) on a decision for that decision to count, once again pulling an inordinate amount of inspiration from Aristotle. So a Kaladin who was tied to a chair his entire life with no hope of escape won't attract Syl no matter what "decisions" he makes.

[Meg]

Ah, this makes sense.