Nohadon And Urithiru

[dvoraen]

Okay, call me a cynic then.  For me, the difference between royalty and warlord is a generation.  I think the current lighteyes got in command by being the people with the Shardblades after the Radiants left, then muscled the ardents and everybody else into rationalizing it.  If you want to believe that Surgebinders happily served much less powerful royalty without KR to enforce order, I can't prove you wrong. 

I'm just saying that not all Surgebinders had to be, or necessarily could force their way to be royalty.  Those with the Truthwatcher Surges, for example, aren't exactly the kind of Surgebinders who could force minions into line -- though note that I'm not saying ALL Surgebinders then with this pair would bend the neck to a ruler -- but this is just one example of a Surgebinder who could very easily be a chief advisor to a ruler.

 

I think you read too much into what I was saying, or I was unclear, specifically the point where I said not all Surgebinders were necessarily royalty.  Some could have been, or made people accept them as a ruler.  My point was simply that of those who were royalty/warlords/top-dog, the percentage that were Surgebinders was less than 100%, in addition to the fact that not all the Surge pairs (let alone the spren that provided them) were necessarily conducive to elevating your position in society.

 

I do agree that the lighteyes gradually took over after the Recreance, on account of "we have light eyes like Radiants, bow to us".  I'm sure the Hierocracy and/or the Sunmaker helped here too.

[hoser he/him]

I'm just saying that not all Surgebinders had to be, or necessarily could force their way to be royalty.  Those with the Truthwatcher Surges, for example, aren't exactly the kind of Surgebinders who could force minions into line -- though note that I'm not saying ALL Surgebinders then with this pair would bend the neck to a ruler -- but this is just one example of a Surgebinder who could very easily be a chief advisor to a ruler.

 

I think you read too much into what I was saying, or I was unclear, specifically the point where I said not all Surgebinders were necessarily royalty.  Some could have been, or made people accept them as a ruler.  My point was simply that of those who were royalty/warlords/top-dog, the percentage that were Surgebinders was less than 100%, in addition to the fact that not all the Surge pairs (let alone the spren that provided them) were necessarily conducive to elevating your position in society.

 

I do agree that the lighteyes gradually took over after the Recreance, on account of "we have light eyes like Radiants, bow to us".  I'm sure the Hierocracy and/or the Sunmaker helped here too.

I totally agree.  Not every Surgebinder would choose to be king. 

 

Given enough Surgebinders, I would guess that there would be no non-surgebinding kings without the Knights to enforce order. 

 

Without much basis, I think that it doesn't matter, because there never were that many unregulated Surgebinders.  

 

I think there were only a small number of Surgebinders before the Nohadon vision.  I think Ishar, Nohadon, or somebody else constrained the spren and there were Radiants soon after the Nohadon vision.  Nohadon organized the ten kingdoms and the Knights were able to reign in the would-be kings or there just weren't any other Surgebinders. 

 

The memory of the Radiants could have helped the current lighteyes come into power after the Recreance, as you say. I don't know that it was necessary, as Shardblades would have given them the power and eye color would be a way to perpetuate it.  Given that they had both, it's impossible to tangle out how much effect was due to which cause.

 

Your positive beliefs about human behavior definitely prove you to be a better person than I    . 

[TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him]

I'm gunna throw a monkey wrench in all of this theorizing on the origin of Urithiru and the oathgates by adding that the Dawnsingers could have bee the ones to create them. Aren't all the main cities specifically shaped like sound waves or something like that? Not to mention, how on Roshar could KR even create something as powerful as the oathgates anyway?

[hoser he/him]

Urithiru had thrones for the kings of the Silver Kingdoms.  The following quote has it being built during somewhat historical times.  Who or what did it is interesting, though, as it is said to have been crafted by the hands of no man.  I believe it was built during Nohadon's lifetime. 

 

“Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.” —Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, requoted in The Vavibrar, line 1804. What I wouldn’t give for a way to translate the Dawnchant.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 519). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

“They lived high atop a place no man could reach, but all could visit. The tower city itself, crafted by the hands of no man.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 485). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[Degamound]

I think Urithiru had to be built at the end of the journey by Nohadon and that why he walked all the kingdoms its symbolic and not literal that he united all the kingdoms in the making of Urithiru.  We see in the last vision Daliner had of Nohadon he picked up the sword to stop the fighting and abuse by the powerful after the desolation had devastated them. So i think the journey has been fictionalized slightly but Nohadon made a journey of conquest and possible setting up nine other kingdoms. 

 

Also on the KR formation; Nohadon could of given Urithiru to KR for protection and their own safety as they now are no longer bound to any particular land now they serve Urithiru and Urithiru is for all the Ten Kingdoms. So Istar's created the bond oaths Nohadon separating them from their oaths to the land. Look how dangerous Kaladin is at only the second oath and he connected the oath to being a solider and Daliner and he was able to use his ability since he was protecting people and that is only one barley trained Windrunner, imagine hundreds albeit thousands of radiants bound to specific lands that would be devastating, almost as devastating as the time of Nohadons vision. Things needed to change and Urithiru is that change to stop people from using the radiants by disconnecting them from particular kingdoms and uniting them in Urithiru.

[hoser he/him]

I really like this thought!

I think Urithiru had to be built at the end of the journey by Nohadon and that why he walked all the kingdoms its symbolic and not literal that he united all the kingdoms in the making of Urithiru.  We see in the last vision Daliner had of Nohadon he picked up the sword to stop the fighting and abuse by the powerful after the desolation had devastated them. So i think the journey has been fictionalized slightly but Nohadon made a journey of conquest and possible setting up nine other kingdoms.

Abamabar to Urithiru could be a metaphorical journey through the capitals starting with the alphabetical first to alphabetical last. 

 

The issue I have with this theory is that it doesn't seem a slight fictionalization.  So much of the story would have to be pure fiction that it seems like a different story.  Consider the following quotes.  For me, the story would be too different.  Taking an army on a campaign of conquest seems nothing like traveling as a day laborer and minstrel.  Building a fortress at the end of a campaign varies immensely from being met by people who have been somewhere for weeks. 

“‘ I strode this insightful distance on my own, and forbade attendants. I had no steed beyond my well-worn sandals, no companion beside a stout staff to offer conversation with its beats against the stone. My mouth was to be my purse; I stuffed it not with gems, but with song. When singing for sustenance failed me, my arms worked well for cleaning a floor or hogpen, and often earned me a satisfactory reward.

“‘ Those dear to me took fright for my safety and, perhaps, my sanity. Kings, they explained, do not walk like beggars for hundreds of miles.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 817). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

My family traveled to Urithiru via the direct method, and had been awaiting me for weeks when I arrived. I was not recognized at the gate,

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 817). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[Degamound]

I really like this thought!

Abamabar to Urithiru could be a metaphorical journey through the capitals starting with the alphabetical first to alphabetical last. 

 

The issue I have with this theory is that it doesn't seem a slight fictionalization.  So much of the story would have to be pure fiction that it seems like a different story.  Consider the following quotes.  For me, the story would be too different.  Taking an army on a campaign of conquest seems nothing like traveling as a day laborer and minstrel.  Building a fortress at the end of a campaign varies immensely from being met by people who have been somewhere for weeks. 

Great quotes hoser but if u will grant me a second more i think i may be able to align them to my theory. The quotes of him traveling across the land seem to be towards the latter half of his life after the silver kingdoms had been founded as in the first quote they speak of Kings, so their had to be others and the world had to recover enough from the desolation to have the sliver kingdoms. The journey though the kingdoms a second time was to see if he had done right by his conquering this parallel's Daliners journey in the books as he is the Nohadon proxy character he tries to emulate the words and sees the work Nohadon had to due in visions. Daliner carves a latrine to think and reflect upon his current state and the state of the world and honor in general. While doing this he thinks about why arent they plate and fabrials for everyday work and how broken this dichotomy seems. This speaks volumes to me about Nohadons journey across the silver kingdoms for Urithiru was made and ran advance systems but the kingdoms he set up or inspired stilled had commoners and he wanted to see how they fared in the new world post desolation. As they are parallels to one another both have similar traits both tyrants,both are considered great men perhaps the greatest in the world, both care for and think about how the common man should go about use of tech and both maybe were bondsmiths.  

[hoser he/him]

Thanks.  I guess I misunderstood.

Great quotes hoser but if u will grant me a second more i think i may be able to align them to my theory. The quotes of him traveling across the land seem to be towards the latter half of his life after the silver kingdoms had been founded as in the first quote they speak of Kings, so their had to be others and the world had to recover enough from the desolation to have the sliver kingdoms. The journey though the kingdoms a second time was to see if he had done right by his conquering this parallel's Daliners journey in the books as he is the Nohadon proxy character he tries to emulate the words and sees the work Nohadon had to due in visions. Daliner carves a latrine to think and reflect upon his current state and the state of the world and honor in general. While doing this he thinks about why arent they plate and fabrials for everyday work and how broken this dichotomy seems. This speaks volumes to me about Nohadons journey across the silver kingdoms for Urithiru was made and ran advance systems but the kingdoms he set up or inspired stilled had commoners and he wanted to see how they fared in the new world post desolation. As they are parallels to one another both have similar traits both tyrants,both are considered great men perhaps the greatest in the world, both care for and think about how the common man should go about use of tech and both maybe were bondsmiths.  

So you are saying that Nohadon made 2 journeys on the foillowing timeline?

• Dalinar vision
• tour of conquest
• build Urithiru
• late in life, walk a tour of all the kingdoms before getting to Urithiru

Sure.  I guess. 

I don't see how that fits your previous post in this thread, as you said:

"I think Urithiru had to be built at the end of the journey by Nohadon and that why he walked all the kingdoms its symbolic and not literal that he united all the kingdoms in the making of Urithiru.  ... So i think the journey has been fictionalized slightly but Nohadon made a journey of conquest and possible setting up nine other kingdoms."

1. I read that as referring to a single journey, when he took up the sword and conquered to unify. 
2. I don't really see the point of fictionalizing the journey, as you could make a more amazing story from a walking tour of all the countries.  The story as Dalinar tells it refers specifically to weeks and hundreds of miles (IIRC), which is not compatible with traveling all the Silver Kingdoms.  It apparently takes weeks to just get to the Shattered Plains from Alethkar. 

What I get from your posts is that the story may be fictionalized.  If that is the case, we might as well just totally ignore it, as any aspect could be fictional.  I choose to treat it as somewhat literal, as I want to understand the world and throwing out what little information we have doesn't help.  Unless we have informational that is outright contradictory, I would rather not discount it. 

 

Please correct and forgive me if I have misunderstood your posts.  

[Degamound]

Thanks.  I guess I misunderstood.

So you are saying that Nohadon made 2 journeys on the foillowing timeline?

• Dalinar vision
• tour of conquest
• build Urithiru
• late in life, walk a tour of all the kingdoms before getting to Urithiru

Sure.  I guess. 

I don't see how that fits your previous post in this thread, as you said:

1. I read that as referring to a single journey, when he took up the sword and conquered to unify. 
2. I don't really see the point of fictionalizing the journey, as you could make a more amazing story from a walking tour of all the countries.  The story as Dalinar tells it refers specifically to weeks and hundreds of miles (IIRC), which is not compatible with traveling all the Silver Kingdoms.  It apparently takes weeks to just get to the Shattered Plains from Alethkar. 

What I get from your posts is that the story may be fictionalized.  If that is the case, we might as well just totally ignore it, as any aspect could be fictional.  I choose to treat it as somewhat literal, as I want to understand the world and throwing out what little information we have doesn't help.  Unless we have informational that is outright contradictory, I would rather not discount it. 

 

Please correct and forgive me if I have misunderstood your posts.  

Yeah i think i might of confused myself on some of the second post sorry bout that lets see if i can rectify that. I do think that Nohadon made two trips but they had different purposes the first trip is about the destination while the second trip is about the journey he took and what he experienced along the way. So after Daliner's vision we see that Nohadon picked up the sword and carved out his own kingdom at a minimal i think along the way though he came to two conclusion as he did this the first is the codes: these are the basis for the knights radiant Daliner tells us and they are a better way for war to take place in Alethkar. This seems pretty logical for Nohadon to have done, during the time of conquest he had to wage war to accomplish this and he probably killed or broke surgebinders in the process of doing this. The codes wouldn't stop warring kingdoms from using and abusing surgebinders thou which leads to the second conclusion Urithiru. The knights radiant tell Daliner in his vision against the midnight essence that they serve no king and yet all of them, i think this is the main reason for Urithiru they aren't beholden to any land but help all the lands.  The oath gates place the creation of Uirthiru after the silver kingdoms are formed as the gates connect to the kingdoms and the blades of a radiant is needed for the use of the gates. So finally to the second journey i think that goes back to the first oath journey before destination and the codes. I think Ishar made the oaths to bind the surgebinders and Nohadon added the first oath to them and the mass acceptance changed the oaths forever. That is why he walked the journey a second time, he could of token an oath gate or been driven but he walked it because the destination doesn't matter the journey does.

[FirstSelector]

I particularly like Hoser's idea:

 

Abamabar to Urithiru could be a metaphorical journey through the capitals starting with the alphabetical first to alphabetical last.

 

It seems like a very Brandon thing to consider how a colloquialism, without context, could cause all manner of scholarly issues several thousand years later.

 

It was noticed in several threads that there are forty parables in Nohadon's The Way of Kings, ostensibly the textbook for Radiance 101.  It was then proposed that each parable describes each of the second through fifth ideals for each Order.  I will take a leap and propose that since the quote about walking to Urithiru comes from the 8th Parable, it is meant to somehow embody the second ideal of the Willshapers.  They are supposedly varied and erratic, with a love of adventure, and a long journey connecting all of the major cities seems to be right up their alley.

Edited September 20, 2015 by FirstSelector