Compounders vs Leechers/Nicrobursts

[Kaymyth]

So, this is a question that I've been pondering on for a while.  There comes a time in the plotting of character arcs when you realize you're going to get to a point where your main has leveled up so much that you need to throw something new at her (like ya do).  And it got me thinking.

 

So, let's take Eva, a steel compounder.  In this scenario, Eva is ready for a fight.  She's wearing her standard metalmind bracers and has steel shavings that she's downed for her Pushes, as well as a handful of charged steel marbleminds that she's swallowed for her Compounding.  Not one to ever consider that overkill is even a thing, she's also got a few charged steel earrings that she wears as backup.

 

Unfortunately for Eva, she runs into Jerkface (we'll call him JF for short), who is a Leecher.  He manages to get ahold of her hand, and burns his chromium.  What happens next can be broken down into several pieces:

 

1)  Obviously her steel shavings disappear.  Poof.  Gone.  No Steelpushes for you, Eva.

 

2)  Does JF get the marbleminds as well?  Just how different is a charged piece of steel from ordinary steel?  (Personally, I think it's not going to be different enough to save the marbleminds; I believe that the metals that disappear would be dependent on the target's ability to burn them.  However, there is another factor here that I will get to in #4.)

 

3)  What about the earrings?  We know that all that is required to burn a metal is that it be within a person somehow, but I don't think I've ever seen a WoB that's specified whether certain levels of "inside" come with different difficulty levels.  Is it harder for Eva to burn her earrings than it is to burn the metal in her stomach?  Does it take more focus?  And if so, does this make a difference in how JF's chromium burn hits her?  Do they disappear or just get badly pockmarked?  (And, on a tangent, how weird would it be to see someone's earrings evaporate like that?)

 

4)  Is there an upper limit to how much a Leecher or Nicroburst can burn at once?  So far, the only effects we've seen have been with Allomantic amounts of metals, which are pretty miniscule.  But how big of a metalmind do you need for a Compounder to get a decent effect?  (The MAG supplements aren't even a little bit of ballpark help here, as the game mechanics have been vastly simplified for playability's sake.)  There's an upper limit to how much charge a given amount of metal can hold; larger pieces of metal can hold more Investiture.  So are we talking BB-sized metalminds as a practical measure?  Or closer to slingshot marbles? 

 

There's a big difference physics-wise between burning out a few grams of shavings and actually vaporizing what could add up to a half-pound of steel, and this is something that just hasn't been addressed in the books.  So would JF actually manage to clear Eva's entire reserves in one burst?  Or does he hit that hypothetical upper limit and only manage to burn off part of the marbleminds?

 

 

So, there you have my questions.  Commence discussion!

Edited January 29, 2015 by Kaymyth

[king of nowhere]

I'm pretty sure the marbleminds will go; a leecher would burn all the metal the target is capable of burning, i suppose. no idea for the earrings, on the other hand, but i doon't think they will just burn, or an inquisitor would be killed by a leecher instantly. maybe they burn more slowly, or something.

As for the rate at which metals are consumed in a nicroburst/similar effect, I also raised the question of how fast it actually is. the rate of burned metal cannot be infinite, but it could be one gram per second or one kilogram per second.

[Kaymyth]

I'm pretty sure the marbleminds will go; a leecher would burn all the metal the target is capable of burning, i suppose. no idea for the earrings, on the other hand, but i doon't think they will just burn, or an inquisitor would be killed by a leecher instantly. maybe they burn more slowly, or something.

As for the rate at which metals are consumed in a nicroburst/similar effect, I also raised the question of how fast it actually is. the rate of burned metal cannot be infinite, but it could be one gram per second or one kilogram per second.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the marbleminds would definitely go.  More up for debate is how quickly.

 

As for the earrings, bear in mind that these are not hemalurgical earrings, just normal(ish) feruchemical ones.  The difference may be minor, or it may be fairly significant. 

[Dunkum]

I don't have any answers, but I do have another question to add on top: I don't know if we've ever gotten a clear answer on this (though I don't have the MAG, so maybe it is there) but can a compounder choose which effect (allomantic or feruchemical) they get when they burn a metalmind?  And following from that, if a nicroburst used their ability on a compounder, would the flared metals have the allomantic or feruchemical effect?

 

in your example, if JF is a nicroburst, and he burns nicrosil and forces Eva to flare her marbleminds with it, does he briefly boost her speed, or provide her a massive steelpush, or does she get to determine which effect happens?

[kinxer]

To OP: when I brought up the ability of Nicrobursts to strategically affect the metals of allomancers and compounders for combat purposes, I assumed it worked the same way as Duralumin, so the person would have to be burning the metal. Also, Duralumin seems to take about a second to burn away a small amount of metal, but it's possible (and I'm shooting from the hip here) that Duralumin actually tends to cause more volatility in its effect on metal use because it affects itself as well. Anyway, it would take a second or so at least for Nicrosil to burn away someone's metal reserves, but they wouldn't have a choice once it started*. As for Chromium, Aluminum seems to be instantaneous (though is likely just incredibly quick) and I agree that it would probably affect all her metals in her stomach, but I don't know about the earrings.

 

To Dunkum: If I remember correctly from a bit of AoL from Miles' perspective, the metals feel like different reserves. Also, I remember reading somewhere (and I'm not meticulous enough to go find it unless you ask me to) that once a piece of metal is a metalmind, it is charged Feruchemically and can only be used for Compounding. I don't recall whether Vin is able to burn that bit of metal Sazed gave her at one point, though (Allomantically, that is; the point of the scene is that she couldn't access it Feruchemically). So, assuming that Nicrosil works as I think it does (Duralumin on someone else), JF would cause Eva to have a huge boost in her speed for a short amount of time but would not cause a steelpush.

[Kaymyth]

I don't have any answers, but I do have another question to add on top: I don't know if we've ever gotten a clear answer on this (though I don't have the MAG, so maybe it is there) but can a compounder choose which effect (allomantic or feruchemical) they get when they burn a metalmind?  And following from that, if a nicroburst used their ability on a compounder, would the flared metals have the allomantic or feruchemical effect?

 

in your example, if JF is a nicroburst, and he burns nicrosil and forces Eva to flare her marbleminds with it, does he briefly boost her speed, or provide her a massive steelpush, or does she get to determine which effect happens?

 

WoB is that a Feruchemical charge "overwrites" the Allomantic effect of the metal.  He went on to say, though, that a different Allomancer burning a metalmind would get the normal Allomantic effect of that metal.

 

To OP: when I brought up the ability of Nicrobursts to strategically affect the metals of allomancers and compounders for combat purposes, I assumed it worked the same way as Duralumin, so the person would have to be burning the metal. Also, Duralumin seems to take about a second to burn away a small amount of metal, but it's possible (and I'm shooting from the hip here) that Duralumin actually tends to cause more volatility in its effect on metal use because it affects itself as well. Anyway, it would take a second or so at least for Nicrosil to burn away someone's metal reserves, but they wouldn't have a choice once it started*. As for Chromium, Aluminum seems to be instantaneous (though is likely just incredibly quick) and I agree that it would probably affect all her metals in her stomach, but I don't know about the earrings.

 

To Dunkum: If I remember correctly from a bit of AoL from Miles' perspective, the metals feel like different reserves. Also, I remember reading somewhere (and I'm not meticulous enough to go find it unless you ask me to) that once a piece of metal is a metalmind, it is charged Feruchemically and can only be used for Compounding. I don't recall whether Vin is able to burn that bit of metal Sazed gave her at one point, though (Allomantically, that is; the point of the scene is that she couldn't access it Feruchemically). So, assuming that Nicrosil works as I think it does (Duralumin on someone else), JF would cause Eva to have a huge boost in her speed for a short amount of time but would not cause a steelpush.

 

Nicrosil actually does a force-burn of metal reserves, so it's not exactly like duralumin.  Of course, duralumin is usually used by a Mistborn, who can target the effect of their metals.  But a Nicroburst is just touching someone and going, "BOOM!"  It does indeed act against the target's will, though the nature of the power can be used for both beneficial and detrimental effects.

 

And technically, in this case, for Eva it would do both.  She has both ordinary and charged steel in her system. 

[skaa]

Wait, what are marbleminds?

 

Edit: Ah, so they're just small spherical metalminds, right? Yeah, we'll need more WoB on how Chromium Allomancy works. We don't even know if a Leecher will actually be Invested by the metals he "leeches", or if those metals will simply disappear without affecting anything.

Edited January 30, 2015 by skaa

[kinxer]

Nicrosil actually does a force-burn of metal reserves, so it's not exactly like duralumin.  Of course, duralumin is usually used by a Mistborn, who can target the effect of their metals.  But a Nicroburst is just touching someone and going, "BOOM!"  It does indeed act against the target's will, though the nature of the power can be used for both beneficial and detrimental effects.

 

And technically, in this case, for Eva it would do both.  She has both ordinary and charged steel in her system. 

Ah... That's actually pretty cool, and more useful than I had thought. I'm not sure if you're entirely right about the results of Dunkum's scenario, though. I think that unless Eva was actually Pushing on something, she'd use up the Steel quickly to no effect (but she'll see the lines briefly) while she moves very quickly.

[Cam]

Wait, what are marbleminds?

Metalminds small enough to swallow for compounding.

[Cheese United]

Okay quick question on compounding:

Do you need to burn the metal to get the feruchemical effect?

ie. If you were Miles, would burning the charge in the metal mind work like regular feruchemy just super powered, or would it burn the metal mind. Or would you need to burn regular gold, then charge your metalmind or else it wouldn't compound or something.

[Cam]

Okay quick question on compounding:

Do you need to burn the metal to get the feruchemical effect?

ie. If you were Miles, would burning the charge in the metal mind work like regular feruchemy just super powered, or would it burn the metal mind. Or would you need to burn regular gold, then charge your metalmind or else it wouldn't compound or something.

You can still tap normally, this is crucial, as burning it is too fast, so you may get all these bonus charges, but only for a second. The trick is usually to burn and restore.

[Cheese United]

Okay. Thanks!

[Dunkum]

Nicrosil actually does a force-burn of metal reserves, so it's not exactly like duralumin.  Of course, duralumin is usually used by a Mistborn, who can target the effect of their metals.  But a Nicroburst is just touching someone and going, "BOOM!"  It does indeed act against the target's will, though the nature of the power can be used for both beneficial and detrimental effects.

 

And technically, in this case, for Eva it would do both.  She has both ordinary and charged steel in her system.

Do we actually know this? It definitely didn't come up in the books, and I didn't think there was a WoB on the effects of nicrosil, since he was considering a nicrosil allomancer for the next mistborn trilogy. There may be information in the MAG, but that isn't canon, just indicative. I would assume it is like duralumin, only affecting metals being actively burned , until I see otherwise.

[Cam]

Do we actually know this? It definitely didn't come up in the books, and I didn't think there was a WoB on the effects of nicrosil, since he was considering a nicrosil allomancer for the next mistborn trilogy. There may be information in the MAG, but that isn't canon, just indicative. I would assume it is like duralumin, only affecting metals being actively burned , until I see otherwise.

in the MAG, it indeed usually only burns what is already being burned. There's a stunt that forces them to burn something, but I'd say stunts are less canon than the actual power.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Cam

[Kaymyth]

Metalminds small enough to swallow for compounding.

 

Pretty much this, yes.  I saw some steel balls for slingshots for sale and thought, huh, those are kind of perfect for a Compounder.  And I like the way the word 'marblemind' rolls off the tongue, so it stuck.

 

in the MAG, it indeed usually only burns what is already being burned. There's a stunt that forces them to burn something, but I'd say stunts are less canon than the actual power.

 

It's quite possible I'm mixing up MAG information with other things that I've read.  That's the problem with storing information in my brain; there's no card catalog!

[kinxer]

It's quite possible I'm mixing up MAG information with other things that I've read.  That's the problem with storing information in my brain; there's no card catalog!

This is why I do things like name a flash drive "Coppermind" as a form of wish-fulfillment. Also, I'm not sure whether I'd prefer to be right originally or not... I'd already rearranged how I think Nicrosil works.

As an additional point in Nicrosil's favor, there's no reason that it would burn itself away, so it would probably last at least as long as something like Pewter or Steel in a fight.

[Oudeis]

First, I'm concurring with the general sentiment that nicrosil will only burn up metals currently being used; therefore if Eva is burning her steelminds for the allomantic steel, she'd get a burst of steelpushabiitiness, if she's burning them for the feruchemical charge, she'd get a burst of speed. I admit this is just a guess on my part, since I think we've never gotten WoB on the particulars of nicrosil.

 

As for chromium and the earrings... again, basing this on my gut and very little evidence, I'm saying no. We do know that there is a theoretical way to burn metal in your body as a reserve, but there's evidence from the book to suggest it isn't that simple. In either the annotations or epigraphs, I'm sure it's listed that some Inquisitors got allomantic duralumin, and if so they couldn't have used it with steelpushes or they'd've died. Granted, maybe they just used it for emotional allomancy or something and avoided the metals that make up their spikes. We only see aluminum used once, and Vin isn't wearing her earring at the time. We do see her once burn bronze with duralumin, detecting Breeze influencing Elend, while wearing her earring. It does use up her bronze reserve, but her earring is intact, so duralumin does not default to burning up whatever "reserve" the earring could be used for.

 

This to me says that the earrings are prolly safe from chromium. That said, there's a lot of reason to call the evidence into question. Chromium, if anything, is more like aluminum than duralumin, and the two metals act very differently. Duralumin only works on metals being burned, aluminum works on them all. Aluminum affects itself, duralumin is immune to its own effect. Even if chromium is similarly modeled to its internal counterpart, which itself is a bit of a stretch, there's no reason to assume it will work like duralumin.

 

And, again, the only people we see using these metals are Vin and Elend. Vin ends up getting pretty good at duralumin, but it's not her primary metal and she has a relatively short time to experiment; a dedicated Leecher or Nicroburst might have learned tricks that totally eluded her. Perhaps with practice, the way Vin couldn't at first sense different beats with bronze, a Leecher might be able to seek out things like piercings, even if the allomancer herself doesn't know how to use them as reserves.

 

TL;DR We have very little evidence, only suggestions, but it does suggest that neither nicrosil nor chromium would affect earrings unless the earrings were already being used as a reserve. That said, this is your story, and it sounds like you're in need of a powerful villain. I think it's totally plausible to have a powerful, skilled Leecher who knows how to use his power to vanish even metal just in the body, even if Eva herself doesn't know the trick to access them.

[Kaymyth]

 

TL;DR We have very little evidence, only suggestions, but it does suggest that neither nicrosil nor chromium would affect earrings unless the earrings were already being used as a reserve. That said, this is your story, and it sounds like you're in need of a powerful villain. I think it's totally plausible to have a powerful, skilled Leecher who knows how to use his power to vanish even metal just in the body, even if Eva herself doesn't know the trick to access them.

 

Conveniently, this particular plotline is far enough in the arc that's coming together that it's likely to be a couple of stories in before this piece actually gets written.  The concept is to have the Leecher be part of a team that was put together specifically to neutralize her, so Eva's got a lot of work to do before she gets powerful enough to warrant getting this madness thrown at her.  There's plenty of time to squeeze out some more information on the more esoteric metals before I reach this stage. 

 

I was originally planning on waiting a while before I even brought the question up, but someone else was touched on the subject in another thread, and I figured, eh, now's as good a time as any.