Discussion: Allomantic Efficiency

[Kaymyth she/her]

No no, I got it. I just thought you wouldn't want it mentioned. Here, I'll downvote it for you.

Edit: actually, I've reached my quota of downvotes. Sorry, Kobold King.

 

That's OK.  I didn't really feel that bad about it.

 

Though, um....where does Kobold King come into this?  Am I missing an in-joke because I haven't read All The Things?

[Kurkistan he/him]

You're going to hate me. I apologize. WoB:

 

This is from the SLCC signing, which is newer than that WoB.

 

I hate contradictory WoBs.

 

Are we 100% that that's a contradiction?

 

Here are the two, for ease of use:

 

Source (Sept. 2013):

CHRIS KING (MIYABI)

This is the last one here we have from Mistborn: Did the Lord Ruler use lerasium to gain his super Allomantic abilities or did he grant that to himself with the Well's power? If he used the bead, does he count as one of the nine original Allomancers that Sazed mentions?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Excellent question. He did not use the bead. In all of this he granted himself basically, he rebuilt himself to be extremely powerful and he did not use one of the beads.

 

Source (Sept.2014):

QUESTION

What's lerasium?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

That is the bead of metal that Elend finds at the end of Book 2, that Vin finds and gives to Elend.

 

QUESTION

Oh so there were only two and the Lord Ruler kind of left it there?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

There actually were a bunch of them, and the first Mistborn came from people who ate that. The Lord Ruler took one for himself and he left others there to use if he needed them.

 

I don't see these as necessarily being contradictory. One reading (the one I assumed when I saw the SLCC WoB) was that the second WoB is telling us that TLR took a bead of Lerasium but didn't burn it. There are quite a few scenarios where this makes sense.

 

I myself guessed he might have used it for Feruchemy. Another option is that he burned it for Allomantic effect (if there is one), or alloyed it or some other option besides using the Lerasium to make himself a mistborn. Or he bartered it with a passing merchant for a sack of beans. Options abound.

 

I don't really find this reading all that twisty to adopt, and I think it's a better tack to take going forward than just assuming the WoBs are contradictory. Both are verbatim and fairly clear, suggesting that simple confusion on someone's part isn't the culprit: so either Brandon very much changed his mind over the course of a single year or the first WoB's "TLR didn't use the bead to get Allomancy" still leaves us wiggle room for reasons he'd "take one for himself".

Edited January 16, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Kaymyth she/her]

 

Are we 100% that that's a contradiction?

 

Here are the two, for ease of use:

 

Source (Sept. 2013):

 

Source (Sept.2014):

 

I don't see these as necessarily being contradictory. One reading (the one I assumed when I saw the SLCC WoB) was that the second WoB is telling us that TLR took a bead of Lerasium but didn't burn it. There are quite a few scenarios where this makes sense.

 

I myself guessed he might have used it for Feruchemy. Another option is that he burned it for Allomantic effect (if there is one), or alloyed it or some other option besides using the Lerasium to make himself a mistborn. Or he bartered it with a passing merchant for a sack of beans. Options abound.

 

I don't really find this reading all that twisty to adopt, and I think it's a better tack to take going forward than just assuming the WoBs are contradictory. Both are verbatim and fairly clear, suggesting that simple confusion on someone's part isn't the culprit: so either Brandon very much changed his mind over the course of a single year or the first WoB's "TLR didn't use the bead to get Allomancy" still leaves us wiggle room for reasons he'd "take one for himself".

 

Ooh.  Nice catch.  Lerasium must have some kind of Feruchemical property; that's what I'd lay money on TLR doing with it.

[Moogle]

 Are we 100% that that's a contradiction?

 

You're right that there's a way it could not be contradictory, though I would also bring up Sazed's remarks:

The beads of metal found at the Well—beads that made men into Mistborn—were the reason why Allomancers used to be more powerful. Those first Mistborn were as Elend Venture became—possessing a primal power, which was then passed down through the lines of the nobility, weakening a bit with each generation. The Lord Ruler was one of these ancient Allomancers, his power pure and unadulterated by time and breeding. That is part of why he was so mighty compared to other Mistborn—though, admittedly, his ability to mix Feruchemy and Allomancy was what produced many of his most spectacular abilities. Still, it is interesting to me that one of his “divine” powers—his essential Allomantic strength—was something every one of the original nine Allomancers possessed.

 

Recent WoB is that burning lerasium is additive - if Vin burned the same size bead of lerasium that Elend did, she'd be stronger than Elend was.

 

This implies that TLR could have built himself to be much stronger than the original Allomancers... but Sazed implies he was the same power level. It seems likely to me that he did use the bead.

 

Of course, it would make sense if he were using it for Feruchemy. I wonder why Vin didn't find a lerasium ring or something on him? Maybe he Compounded it?

[Kurkistan he/him]

It looks like this may be one of those "huzzah we get to ask a third clarifying question " moments, I think. Miyabi's interview is very very definitive on "He did not use the bead. In all of this he granted himself basically, he rebuilt himself to be extremely powerful and he did not use one of the beads", but then if he "took" one why wouldn't he use it and...

 

I guess "Hey Brandon, if TLR took a bead but didn't use it to become an Allomancer, what'd he take(/use?) it for?" might be in order?

Edited January 16, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Dunkum he/him]

The main point to take away is that any Steelpush adds a certain amount of force that tries to make two bodies be farther apart via the path of least resistance. From that point on, it's nothing but figuring out where the energy goes.

 

EDIT: Like really aggressive jelly in a sandwich where the bread is lead weights.

I think I've got it, just needed something more or less analagous from the real world to compare it to.  for right now, I'm imagining something like electromagnets (and deliberately not doing research to see if they actually work the way I am thinking) aligned so that they are repelling each other.  When you let the electricity flow, and the magnetism kicks in, the push away from each other with equal force.  if one of them is much more massive than the other, or braced against somethign much more massive, then the smaller one is the one that is going to move.

[Kipper he/him]

That's OK.  I didn't really feel that bad about it.

 

Though, um....where does Kobold King come into this?  Am I missing an in-joke because I haven't read All The Things?

He has so much rep that apparently people said it was bad that he had so much more than Team Sanderson, (I found this out the "clueless noob" way too) so he posted a thread for the express purpose of people downvoting him. I found it.

[Oudeis he/him]

More thoughts...

 

Elend is described as more powerful, because he can add more force to his Steelpushes than others can. Yet... is that really consistent? The model doesn't actually make a ton of sense.

 

Vin can Push on a single coin. She can Push on a dozen coins. From what we've seen, there's no reason to suspect that when she pushes on dozens of coins, that each individual coin is only receiving 1/20 the force of Pushing on a single coin. Wax, braced by his iron feruchemy, is able to add enough force to an entire structure (granted, at pressure points, but still) to make the whole thing collapse.

 

This doesn't fully jive with what Breeze tells us about Soothing and Rioting. He seems to imply that power is in the number of people you can Soothe or Riot, not in how strongly you can affect the emotions; in fact, a lighter touch is usually much preferred. (I admit that is less certain/obvious than the Steel example.)

 

So... someone stronger at Steel is someone who can put more force into any single Push. Regardless, there's nothing to stop you from pushing on a score of coins as easily as one. Does pushing 20 coins make steel run out 20 times as fast? Does steel burn faster when you're actually pushing instead of just passively observing lines?

[Blaze1616 he/him]

 Does pushing 20 coins make steel run out 20 times as fast? Does steel burn faster when you're actually pushing instead of just passively observing lines?

 

I'm not so sure about the first question, but I am pretty confident the answer to your second question is "Yes." I vaguely recall a description that to make the blue lines appear Vin made her Steel/Iron burn very softly, or simmer, essentially. It's been a long time since I read the books though.

 

As to your first question, I think it boils down to the mechanism of steel pushing. This is pure conjecture, but one way for this to make sense is the following. Let us assume Vin burns steel at a rate of 1 g/s, which allows her to push a single coin with X N of force. I believe we all agree that it is the rate at which the metal is burned that affects the power, yes? So, at that constant rate, she sees all of the blue lines sprouting out from her center of gravity, and can push a single coin with X N. This is where the mechanism comes into play. One option is that she can divide the X N of force among any number of the blue lines they choose. This mechanism gives her the power to divide the force in some manner (potentially just halves, quarters, etc. or less neatly as in 1 N down this blue arrow and X-1 down this one) as well as the power to choose the number of blue lines the force is exerted along. In addition, this mechanism would mean that to push 20 different coins with X N of force, she would need to burn steel roughly 20 times as fast. Another option, though, would be that at 1 g/s, X N of force is applied to any or all of the blue lines. This mechanism simply gives her the ability to decide which blue lines the force is exerted on. As a result, though, she would not burn steel 20 times as fast.

 

I have no idea which mechanism is correct, though I lean towards the first one, personally. That being said, the second makes Wax toppling a building more reasonable.

[Kurkistan he/him]

To go back off-topic, it looks like Brandon's decided to stick to the "he used the Well" answer.

[Moogle]

Sooooo, Sazed was wrong, or at least purposefully misleading (which I doubt). Good to keep in mind so I don't use the epigraphs as WoB-level things. Of course, Sazed may have been talking in general.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Moogle

[Kipper he/him]

To go back off-topic, it looks like Brandon's decided to stick to the "he used the Well" answer.

Looking back at the earlier WoBs on the subject, he never (that I can find) actually flat-out said, "Rashek used the bead to become a Mistborn."

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Looking back at the earlier WoBs on the subject, he never (that I can find) actually flat-out said, "Rashek used the bead to become a Mistborn."

 

Sazed did, in HoA, if I recall correctly.

[Kipper he/him]

Sazed did, in HoA, if I recall correctly.

Yes, but Brandon never did. We know that viewpoint characters don't know everything and make flawed assumptions. 

[Moogle]

I note that the WoB says Brandon was unsure when asked originally. That would also fit in with his answer from the SLCC transcription - he thought, at the time, that TLR did take the bead. But this is impossible to know for sure, and when we start getting into speculation about this sort of thing, it's not bound to end well.

 

Yes, but Brandon never did. We know that viewpoint characters don't know everything and make flawed assumptions. 

 

Our viewpoint character here is a Shard who was capable of looking back through a Shard's history to see how the powers were used (and who in fact did do that). I'd normally trust Sazed as much as a WoB in this situation.

[Kipper he/him]

I note that the WoB says Brandon was unsure when asked originally. That would also fit in with his answer from the SLCC transcription - he thought, at the time, that TLR did take the bead.

 

 

Our viewpoint character here is a Shard who was capable of looking back through a Shard's history to see how the powers were used (and who in fact did do that). I'd normally trust Sazed as much as a WoB in this situation.

Well, even Shards are not infallible. 

I'm inclined to think that Brandon just didn't know or care, and made a table-slap decision on it when pressed. Does it really matter at this point? 

The bead would be gone; probably blown out of the throne room during the fight. Unless some poor boy in Shadows of Self discovers the bead sticking out of the dirt, eats it for some reason, and becomes a main character.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Our viewpoint character here is a Shard who was capable of looking back through a Shard's history to see how the powers were used (and who in fact did do that). I'd normally trust Sazed as much as a WoB in this situation.

 

I've been of the opinion that novels trump WoB. If I understand Dragonsteel Entertainment's hierarchy correctly, Peter is the one who Brandon goes to for canon accuracy, and making sure he does not contradict previous books. As such, answering questions on the fly at Q&As can lead to false information. Novels, on the other hand, get harsh scrutiny for the facts (at least I hope they do).

 

Also, aren't novels just one long WoB?

[Kipper he/him]

I've been of the opinion that novels trump WoB. If I understand Dragonsteel Entertainment's hierarchy correctly, Peter is the one who Brandon goes to for canon accuracy, and making sure he does not contradict previous books. As such, answering questions on the fly at Q&As can lead to false information. Novels, on the other hand, get harsh scrutiny for the facts (at least I hope they do).

 

Also, aren't novels just one long WoB?

Yes, but Sazed's viewpoint could have been flawed.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Yes, but Sazed's viewpoint could have been flawed.

 

There's always a risk with the POV characters not knowing exactly what they're talking about, but Sazed, at the time, had ascended and was granted the vast knowledge of the past, particularly, as I've come to understand it, about the Shards he now holds. I would argue that of anything Sazed has ever said, those epigraphs should be the most likely candidates to be true.

 

Regardless, though, Brandon has now decided that Harmony was wrong *dramatic music*

[Kipper he/him]

There's always a risk with the POV characters not knowing exactly what they're talking about, but Sazed, at the time, had ascended and was granted the vast knowledge of the past, particularly, as I've come to understand it, about the Shards he now holds. I would argue that of anything Sazed has ever said, those epigraphs should be the most likely candidates to be true.

 

Regardless, though, Brandon has now decided that Harmony was wrong *dramatic music*

Sazed is blind to metal though, if that makes a difference.

[Moogle]

Sazed is blind to metal though, if that makes a difference.

 

True, but in this case the Well was used, and Sazed says he was capable of looking back through the history of the Shard to see how it was used. He backs this up, saying things that Rashek did (creation of microorganisms to deal with the ash after messing up on moving the planet, etc.). He should have known he used the Well to make himself stronger.

 

You're right though, it doesn't matter now. Brandon's confirmed the Well as being canon!

Edited January 21, 2015 by Moogle

[Kipper he/him]

Ah Well...

I guess we have a conflict. So do we consider the new WoB to be correct anyway?

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Given the very specific response Brandon gave:

 

Me: Did Rashek use the Well or a bead of lerasium to become a Mistborn?
Brandon: He didn't know at first, I told him there were interviews with him saying both, and he eventually answered with "I'm canonizing it as he used the Well".

 

I'm going to say that yes, we trust this answer. Until he tells us he's changed his mind, anyways...

[Oudeis he/him]

Sazed did, in HoA, if I recall correctly.

 

Technically Sazed never says, "Rashek ate a bead". He just says Rashek was as powerful as the original allomancers. If Rashek simply used the power of the well to make himself one full bead of Lerasium's worth of Mistborn, there's no contradiction in the epigraph.

[Kipper he/him]

Technically Sazed never says, "Rashek ate a bead". He just says Rashek was as powerful as the original allomancers. If Rashek simply used the power of the well to make himself one full bead of Lerasium's worth of Mistborn, there's no contradiction in the epigraph.

Does anybody know the relevant portion of the book?