Szeth vs. Vin

[ostrichofevil he/him]

I've seen discussions about fights between two characters from different cosmere novels, e.g., Vin vs. Kaladin or Vin vs. Shallan, but never between Szeth and Vin.  This, in fact, sounds like a much more balanced fight than the others; neither Kaladin nor Shallan has gained enough experience with their powers (or Shardblades) to beat an experienced Allomancer like Vin, while Szeth is a practiced Windrunner and Shardbearer.

 

The setting for this fight is an open landscape, and Vin has plenty of coins and Allomantic metals (aside from Atium), while Szeth has plenty of infused spheres.  Who will win?  Post a reply for how they achieve victory.

[Ibunnuk he/him]

Gotta go with Seth Purely on the grounds that If he has plenty of Stormlight he's going to survive/heal almost anything apart from decapitation but a single hit on Vin with a Shardblade and she is pretty much dead. Her ability with pushing and pulling is wiped out as Seth can fly (I know it's not technically flying but it's close enough) and any coins etc she shoots at him he's either going to divert into something picked up to act as a makeshift shield or just allow to hit him and heal from it.

I would think he would simply get himself close and then any hit is either going to cripple her and make it easy or kill her outright.

If Vin had Atium however this would be completely different as she could dodge Szeth's attacks until an opening appears to allow a single killing blow (decapitation, crushing the brain etc)

[gjustice99 she/her]

I'm going Vin cause with atium she is about as close to inVINcible as you can get. See what I did there?     (I'm sorry I had to)

Edited December 27, 2014 by gjustice99

[king of nowhere]

At first thought I was thinking szeth, cause he can heal almost everything while vin cannot. but then I figured out that the only thing that coulld kill szeth would be his head exploding, and that would be exactly the result of a duraluminium push. Szeth can try to doddge or deflect such a coin, but consider that it would be going faster than a bullet, so I'm not sure he can manage.
  Even if she doesn't hit szeth in the head, a duraluminium-pushed coin on any other body part is going to do damage enough that it would take a long time for stormlight to fix it. I think it could easily sever a limb, and that would disable szeth enough to allow vin another shot. if she misses some, she can scatter coins all around, and then pull those behind szeth. he cannot sense them with allomanccy, he has big troubles dodging attacks from every side.

So, my idea is vin wins immediately by scattering some coins and duraluminium pushing them. repeat a couple of times until szeth  is too broken to defend himself, then close in and go for an headshot.

IIf szeth can survive this unschated, then he wins. I am under the impression that stormlight speed is faster than pewter speed, so szeth could hit vin more or less with impunity. plus he can regenerate. plus his weapon is a one-hit kill.

 

OOf course an important part of the fight is whether the opponents are aware of each other's abilities. If they aren't, Vin may not try it because she'd assume szeth can push back the coins, and szeth would not know to prepare for projectiles when vin throws some coins in the air. I'd  say iff they are not aware of each other's powers, then szeth wins, cause it is more difficult for vin to figure out how to kill him for good.

[Topomouse he/him]

I also think Szeth would win, Stormlight is just so OP compared to the other magic systems. At the very least it gives you the equivalent of allomantic pewter and feruchemical gold(without having to store the health away), and then you have to add the surges themselves. Just OP.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Topomouse

[Lord Pifferdoo he/him]

Now reimagine the fight with Szeth wielding Nightblood  

[kari-no-sugata]

Hmm. I've been thinking through their options and I was going to give Vin the edge but then I remembered one thing Szeth can do which is throw people up into the air and keep them there at his leisure. Within the setting, Vin would not have any fixed anchors to use to pull herself back to the ground and wouldn't be able to make any once tossed into the air. She would be able to use thrown coins to push herself around but not bring her back to the ground - she wouldn't be helpless but she'd be very vulnerable to attack.

 

If Vin can Push or Pull on Szeth's Shardblade though then I would expect her to win... but I'd be surprised if that was possible.

[ostrichofevil he/him]

Hmm. I've been thinking through their options and I was going to give Vin the edge but then I remembered one thing Szeth can do which is throw people up into the air and keep them there at his leisure. Within the setting, Vin would not have any fixed anchors to use to pull herself back to the ground and wouldn't be able to make any once tossed into the air. She would be able to use thrown coins to push herself around but not bring her back to the ground - she wouldn't be helpless but she'd be very vulnerable to attack.

 

If Vin can Push or Pull on Szeth's Shardblade though then I would expect her to win... but I'd be surprised if that was possible.

 

I agree with the comment on Shardblades not being Pushable or Pullable; they aren't metal.

[Dahak he/him]

For Vin to be around to fight Szeth, Sazed has to have resurrected her.

 

Which means she almost certainly has both atium plus the new conventional metals and knows how to use them. Possibly also Lerasium and Harmonium/Sazedium. She may also have Ferruchemy. She certainly has a friendly strongly god-like entity running assistance and advice through her earring. Plus what ever bonuses being a Sliver of Infinity and having held a Shard gives her.

 

Which may in a reverse of every other fight Szeth has been in mean if she can touch him he loses. Since Chromium almost certainly wipes all stores of magical resources [Metals, Breaths, Stormlight, Dead Monks etc] when pushed with Duralmin.

 

And at range Szeth's only defence against Emotional Allomancy is Vin not knowing or noticing he's a suicidal depressive.

[ostrichofevil he/him]

For Vin to be around to fight Szeth, Sazed has to have resurrected her.

 

Which means she almost certainly has both atium plus the new conventional metals and knows how to use them. Possibly also Lerasium and Harmonium/Sazedium. She may also have Ferruchemy. She certainly has a friendly strongly god-like entity running assistance and advice through her earring. Plus what ever bonuses being a Sliver of Infinity and having held a Shard gives her.

 

Which may in a reverse of every other fight Szeth has been in mean if she can touch him he loses. Since Chromium almost certainly wipes all stores of magical resources [Metals, Breaths, Stormlight, Dead Monks etc] when pushed with Duralmin.

 

And at range Szeth's only defence against Emotional Allomancy is Vin not knowing or noticing he's a suicidal depressive.

Mistborn Spoiler:

Clarification: this is Vin in early HoA, before she takes up Preservation.  Also, before Szeth is killed and resurrected.

[Dahak he/him]

Mistborn Spoiler:

Clarification: this is Vin in early HoA, before she takes up Preservation.  Also, before Szeth is killed and resurrected.

 

HoA is about a couple of hundred years before Szeth is born.

 

So for her to be around to fight him she has to get resurrected. The most likely entity to do that is Harmony, who isn't going to nerf her back down.

 

Since Harmony is working on resurrecting her, him doing so is the simplest explanation of how they can fight.

 

Plus assuming the Florian sisters force a causality violation in another universe without time travel to allow Szeth to go back in time to face early HoA Vin means Szeth loses even if he kills her because Szeth is a perfect tool for Ruin and insane and so subvertable and early HoA Vin is Ruin's Champion and so He'll take an interest and Szeth isn't Marsh.

[Mimiddle04]

I've seen discussions about fights between two characters from different cosmere novels, e.g., Vin vs. Kaladin or Vin vs. Shallan, but never between Szeth and Vin.  This, in fact, sounds like a much more balanced fight than the others; neither Kaladin nor Shallan has gained enough experience with their powers (or Shardblades) to beat an experienced Allomancer like Vin, while Szeth is a practiced Windrunner and Shardbearer.

 

The setting for this fight is an open landscape, and Vin has plenty of coins and Allomantic metals (aside from Atium), while Szeth has plenty of infused spheres.  Who will win?  Post a reply for how they achieve victory.

 

The only problem with saying that Szeth is a more balanced fight than Kaladin is that Kaladin wins against Szeth.  

 

Also, the only way Vin doesn't win in a fight with almost anyone is if she doesn't have Atium.  She can literally see the future.  Szeth has to touch the person he throws into the sky, but he couldn't catch or touch Vin because she'd always know what to do.  You'd have to stipulate she doesn't have the any Atium at the time to even make it a fair fight.  There is a WoB out there that I used in the Shallan v. Vin discussion where Brandon says a Mistborn with Atium is extremely powerful and would be very hard to kill.  It was in response to which character from the Cosmere would win in a fight I think.

 

Last, this really should be in Cosmere with how much Mistborn it involves.

[Mimiddle04]

If Vin can Push or Pull on Szeth's Shardblade though then I would expect her to win... but I'd be surprised if that was possible.

 

I agree with the comment on Shardblades not being Pushable or Pullable; they aren't metal.

 

This word of Brandon explains almost your exact concerns.

 

Q:  Will Allomancy affect Shardblades?

A:  It cannot affect Shardblades.  Well, cannot is a strong term.  Things with innate Investiture are much more difficult to affect by any of the magics at all.  Which is why it's very hard for Szeth to bind people or lash people whering Shardplate to the ceiling.  In the same way Allomancy wouldn't be able to push on it without some help.  Duralumin with a strong Push would probably do it.

Q:  I was just wondering if it was actually metal.

A:  It is metalish--it's metal enough for Allomancy to work on it.

[gjustice99 she/her]

This word of Brandon explains almost your exact concerns.

 

Q:  Will Allomancy affect Shardblades?

A:  It cannot affect Shardblades.  Well, cannot is a strong term.  Things with innate Investiture are much more difficult to affect by any of the magics at all.  Which is why it's very hard for Szeth to bind people or lash people whering Shardplate to the ceiling.  In the same way Allomancy wouldn't be able to push on it without some help.  Duralumin with a strong Push would probably do it.

Q:  I was just wondering if it was actually metal.

A:  It is metalish--it's metal enough for Allomancy to work on it.

So, basically a duralumin push with steel could affect the shardblade.

[Redbird he/him]

So, basically a duralumin push with steel could affect the shardblade.

It probably won't send it flying, just maybe divert a strike or knock it out of his hands since Szeth would not be prepared for it.

[gjustice99 she/her]

It probably won't send it flying, just maybe divert a strike or knock it out of his hands since Szeth would not be prepared for it.

And if she knocked the shardblade out of his hands then she has basically won the fight because the shardblade would dissolve and he would have to resummon it, giving her enough time to kill him.

[Mimiddle04]

And if she knocked the shardblade out of his hands then she has basically won the fight because the shardblade would dissolve and he would have to resummon it, giving her enough time to kill him.

 

Not if it's his Honorblade or Nightblood.  Neither of those swords disappear when they are dropped.  And Nightblood might help him out if he dropped it because Nightblood would go all postal on his own.

 

I still think any stormlight user would be trumped by atium though.

[Redbird he/him]

That's the problem with any mistborn vs x thread, atium. Becuause if the mistborn has it, it is usually a guaranteed win.

[ostrichofevil he/him]

From now on, lets assume that Vin doesn't have Atium.  Okay?  Also, this is hypothetical.  No need to worry about resurrection.

[kari-no-sugata]

Okay, so continuing my mental simulation: let's skip the "warm up" of the fight except to say that Vin (obviously) noticed that Szeth's Shardblade is metal but when she tries to push on it she meets heavy "resistance" (like trying to push on the Lord Ruler's bracelets for example). She guesses a Duralumin Push may work but doesn't want to waste an attempt.

 

Szeth tosses Vin up into the air and keeps her there. She throws some coins around and some find enough purchase in cracks that she can Push on them somewhat (enough to move her around to a degree). Szeth makes some attempts to slash her while leaping at her but she is able to evade with her Pushes (still stuck up in the air). Szeth could probably figure out a way to corner her though and goes for the kill. Vin decides to try a Duralumin Push on Szeth's Shardblade.

 

I see two ways this could go depending on timing: if Vin pushes early then Szeth would probably have enough time to recover by the time her reaches her - since he would have Stormlight and Vin would have no metals left after the Duralumin Push, he should be able to deal some heavy damage to her. If instead Vin waits for the optimal moment to Push (when Szeth his in mid-swing) then she could quite possibly dislocate his shoulder while Duralumin Pushing his Shardblade away. This would also give Szeth less time to recover and Vin would probably be able to deal some extra damage to him but since she wouldn't have any metals left at that point the damage would be limited (unless she would be able to use an obsidian knife for example). Also, Szeth would be able to break way and heal his wounds (and probably recover the Shardblade if he wants to).

 

This would imply a stale-mate situation at best for Vin. However, if Szeth doesn't realise that her weak physical attack immediately after the Duralumin Push was a once-off then he might mistakenly think that her attacks will always be weak. So if he decides to try to leap at her (while she's still stuck up in the air) and finish her off with his martial arts then he would be very surprised by her Pewter fueled strength (presumably she'd be able to drink another vial in between) - in hand-to-hand close combat I think Vin would have a significant advantage.

 

I think the more they fought and the more they understood each others powers the more of an advantage Szeth would have. Vin is definitely very resourceful and tricky to fight (more so than Szeth IMO) but she has no way to block Szeth's Surges while he can (likely) block her long distance attacks. If she had multiple secure anchors then the fight would probably be closer but that's not part of the setup and not something she can just assume to have in general.

Edited December 29, 2014 by kari-no-sugata

[Mimiddle04]

Your scenario seems to give Szeth all the advantages he'd need and takes all of Vin's.   It basically assumes it will take place on Roshar and there are multiple sources of stormlight around and no metal anywhere in sight.  If it took place off Roshar (therefore no stormlight), in a city Vin was familiar with, and she had multiple vials of metals she'd probably win pretty quickly.

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk or condescending.  I hope it didn't come off that way. I just mean if you assume Szeth has enough stormlight to continuously heal himself and perform lashing and fly around you'd have to assume Vin would be keeping more than one vial of metal with her so she wouldn't run out of powers too quickly.

 

My other thoughts were a little more specific:

 

Szeth tosses Vin up into the air and keeps her there. 

 

How did he get close enough to touch her?  I might be wrong but I was under the impression you had to touch something to lash it.  

 

 

If she had multiple secure anchors then the fight would probably be closer but that's not part of the setup and not something she can just assume to have in general.

 

I'd say that really just depends where they're fighting.  Almost anywhere beside the middle of an open field would have metal sources. Even the Shattered Plains are above an old city so there would be metal around, just not visible.

 

To me the point of the question is to ask which fighter would win at their best.  We've already hobbled Vin by not giving her the biggest advantage she has...Atium.  True the OP didn't specify where this takes place, but if you take away metal anchors, metal objects around them, and she uses one duralium push then Szeth would slaughter her because she is just a normal human at that point and the question wouldn't be worth asking.

 

To get the best fight though it'd have to take place in an arena that both fighters could use how they needed.  One with sources of Stormlight and metal anchors and objects strewn about.

 

 

I think the more they fought and the more they understood each others powers the more of an advantage Szeth would have. Vin is definitely very resourceful and tricky to fight (more so than Szeth IMO) but she has no way to block Szeth's Surges while he can (likely) block her long distance attacks. 

 

As you say a lot of who wins depends on if they know anything about each other's magic before the fight begins.  If they didn't have any knowledge of each other's magics it'd be over quickly because one would use their magic in a way the other wasn't prepared for.  Not sure who'd do it first, but it'd happen.

 

So going back to my point above about getting the best fight out of them, I think we have to assume they both have full knowledge of the other's abilities.  This means Vin either goes for only killing blows or tries to make him heal so often he runs out of stormlight before she runs out of metals.  And Szeth knows to pay attention to any metal objects around them and any metal discs she shoots at him that could open up his skull and kill him.

[lol_king he/him]

Well if Vin doesn't have atium then you have to give her the newly discovered metals such as cadmium etc.

Szeth is already mentally unstable, so he will be susceptible to emotional allomancy. Vin can riot his emotions to Make him loose his calm and make rash decisions.

She can slow down time and have a lot of time to think of a good strategy to defeat Szeth, and also refill her metal reserves, maybe snipe him from in there if she can pull off Wax's trick.

In a fighting area with buildings etc, Vin can keep track of Szeth using broze while Szeth has no such means. Vin can hide and wait him out using bendalloy to make time go fast. Alternatively she can just sneak around taking shots at him from the hiding, although he can probably deflect them using reverse lashing.

In a plain area, szeth will have less items to reverse lash and he has to be in constant contact with the object to reverse lash it, so either he stays on the ground(which reduces his maneuverability) or takes something in his hand and basically losing one functional arm and no free arms to lash Vin with if she decides to close up. And I'm pretty sure a duralumin and pewter punch to the head will take care of Szeth.

Using coinshots at rest of Szeth's body will make him use huge amount of stormlight for healing. Also his supply of stormlight is much more limited than Vin's metal reserves as stormlight is used up faster and constantly. Also the speres are bulky and the pouches will make nice targets for coinshots. So Vin could just wait him out.

Basically Vin has a lot mpre options in how she should go about in this fight with all these different kinds of metals, while Szeth is limited to lashings and his sbardblade.

[Redbird he/him]

Another thing about if the fight is on Roshar, once Vin got used to the 0.7 gravity and had the advantage of increased oxygen, she would be stronger. Conversely if the fight is on Scadrial, Szeth would be would be inhibited by the 43% increase in gravity, although stormlight would counteract the oxygen deficiency.

[RawToast225 he/him]

Well, if Vin has Atium... she would kick Szeth's butt. If she doesn't, Szeth might have a chance. I still think Szeth would lose.

[kari-no-sugata]

Your scenario seems to give Szeth all the advantages he'd need and takes all of Vin's.   It basically assumes it will take place on Roshar and there are multiple sources of stormlight around and no metal anywhere in sight.  If it took place off Roshar (therefore no stormlight), in a city Vin was familiar with, and she had multiple vials of metals she'd probably win pretty quickly.

I was using the scenario requested by the thread starter - an open plain etc. This would mean Szeth would only have Stormlight from any spheres he is carrying and would not be able to get any more. Likewise, Vin would be limited by how many vials she is carrying.

 

btw, I've not yet voted on this because I've not yet been able to come to a conclusion in my mind about who would likely come on top.

 

One mistake I definitely made previously is that Szeth can't just make Vin fly up into the sky - as you said, he has to touch her. I doubt he could then adjust the Surge without touching her again. Also agree that it would definitely be a valid tactic for either to try to make the other run out of Stormlight/metals - probably lot easier for Vin to do Szeth unless he can make her waste metals with Duralium burns. We've seen Szeth burn through Stormlight at a rapid rate but then he's often been facing multiple opponents. Not sure how efficient he could be when facing just one opponent.

 

I think the main two problems for Vin is that Szeth can heal very fast - she almost needs an instant-kill hit to be able to win, or at least a knock-out blow that then allows her to finish him off... so long as Szeth has a lot of Stormlight left. Forcing him to use lots of Stormlight for healing would be very effective but its easier said than done. The other big problem for Vin is Szeth's Shadeblade - it's very very dangerous for her since one hit and she would be dead or in bad shape. Although she could use a Duralium Push to knock it away, Szeth could just reclaim it and doing a Duralium Pull would be quite suicidal.

 

I can certainly think of tactics Vin could use to good effect but hard to say exactly how effective they could be. I'm still not sure how this fight would work out...

 

 

PS Happy 2015