Adolin Dueling Champion

[Mimiddle04]

Anyone else think Adolin will be chosen as the Champion to challenge Odium's Champion?  I would guess the common assumption is Kaladin, but I think Adolin would be a good choice too.  His calling is dueling and even Kaladin admits he is truly an expert.  It could even go along with the theory that he will awaken his Blade.  If he awakens it and he becomes a Radiant he could then be a logical choice for the champion.

[weebojello]

I'd suggest that while it certainly does make sense to some degree that it should be Adolin, the following structural reasons make me think it's not.

 

Adolin will not have a central / book / viewpoint.

*If* the champion route is followed by Odium, it would most likely go to a central viewpoint character.

The champion should ideally be closest to Honor.

 

Based on the above, that would be two characters: Kaladin (HonorSpren) and Dalinar (Stormfather).

 

So, based on that, I would suggest that Kaladin or Dalinar are most likely to be a champion. Honestly, I tend to suspect Dalinar of "ascending", therefore Kaladin - being of Jezriens order and also the most practiced of any radiant alive (that we know of) with regards to power usage, would be the most likely choice.

[Mimiddle04]

I see where you're coming from.

 

My counters would be:

 

1.  Adolin doesn't have a central book, but he has a lot of POV's in both the first two books.  Because he's already established as someone who gets a lot of POV, even during other character's books, it would make sense that he could be the character chosen for this fight because it wouldn't limit whose book the fight took place during.

 

2.  I don't think being closest to Honor should play a role.  I somewhat disagree that Kaladin would be closer to Honor, but that is a different conversation.  The reason I really don't think it should matter is because when you're fighting for your life you need to choose the best fighter, not the one with the most Honor.  As long as your champion weren't too close to Odium you'd just want him to be the best chance you had, not the most Honorable.

 

3.  Kaladin is not the most experienced Radiant alive.  If you've made it through WoR you know someone has been using her powers for at least 5 years before Kaladin even discovered his.  He most likely has the most experience using them to fight, but that doesn't make him the best option either.  He bested Szeth even though Szeth had more experience surgebinding.  

 

4.  If you wanted to pick the Radiant with the most experience fighting using Surgebinding you'd pick Szeth.  He's likely a Skybreaker now and has been binding a lot longer than Kaladin.  Again like the point above, it makes more sense to pick the best rather than the most experienced.  Those could coincide or they could be different people.  Not to mention there are 8 books left and Adolin could potentially be binding for years before he'd be named champion.  He could easily surpass Kaladin's binding abilities over the years.

 

In conclusion I think Adolin's fighting skill combined with a possibility he becomes a Radiant are enough to make him just as legit as Kaladin.  

[Oudeis he/him]

We know that one plan is to try to force Odium to choose a Champion. Do we have any reason besides supposition to assume that "the other side" will also have to choose a champion?

[Sasukerinnegan he/him]

Adolin is going to start surgebinding soon. Its obvious if u think about it. Adolin is now the most experienced dueller in Urithiru. He's duelling champion in Urithiru. Dalinar's going to have to give that honor blade to somebody (unless he keeps it for himself which is very unlikely, according to me) and the logical choice is Adolin. I can even imagine the scene. Adolin gets summoned by his father, he thinks he's being arrested for Sadeas' death, instead here, a Honorblade for you......

[Oudeis he/him]

WoB is that you cannot simply Bond an Honorblade, but you can be given it. Presumably that doesn't mean that literally anyone can pick it up and hand it over. If that's all he meant, you've got a point, but it's very possible that the Alethi will have this Honorblade, and no way to use it.

[Sasukerinnegan he/him]

I think that any one can just pick and use a Honorblade. Remember what Syl said. Any man who wields this blade becomes a surgebinder.

[Oudeis he/him]

Q:  Can someone bond more than one honorblade
A:  Honorblade?  You can't bond an honorblade, though it can be given to you. Shardblades, however, come from a spren bond and it is possible to bond more than one. [clarified in a later signing]

 

Source.

 

Simply picking it up is not the same as wielding it.

[High prince of geeks he/him]

Order think it would be a classic sanderson twist that it's continually hinted its going to be kaladin. But then end up being adolin

[Oudeis he/him]

Again... Do we know The Good Guys will pick a Champion just because Odium might?

[RawToast225 he/him]

If they do pick a champion, I think we haven't met them yet. I'm thinking it will be in the second story arc because that will resolve the story. It's possibly that it could be Lift. Sanderson is heavily emphasizing the fact that surgeons can be fighters and Lift is a surgeon. 

[Sasukerinnegan he/him]

If they do pick a champion, I think we haven't met them yet. I'm thinking it will be in the second story arc because that will resolve the story. It's possibly that it could be Lift. Sanderson is heavily emphasizing the fact that surgeons can be fighters and Lift is a surgeon. 

Are you talking about Lift, the edgedancer or Lirin, Kaladin's father?

[Moogle]

Q:  Can someone bond more than one honorblade

A:  Honorblade?  You can't bond an honorblade, though it can be given to you. Shardblades, however, come from a spren bond and it is possible to bond more than one. [clarified in a later signing]

 

Source.

 

Simply picking it up is not the same as wielding it.

 

That WoB confused a lot of people. Brandon later clarified that to say that you can bond Honorblades.

 

Q:  You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up?

A:  Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped.

(source)

Edited December 11, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[RawToast225 he/him]

Are you talking about Lift, the edgedancer or Lirin, Kaladin's father?

Lift. She can heal people and she will fight. Also, she will be a main character in the second arc as confirmed by a WoB I don't want to find.

[lol_king he/him]

I doubt Adolin will be chosen as the champion based on his fighting skills, we know Taln is going to be a main character later on and he's a Herald so he's already kind of honor's champion and i doubt any radiant at least in there present state can come close to him in fighting skills. There is dalinar too, and now that he's a radiant his age will be not that much of a factor.

Also i doubt it will be in the hands of the humans, the Stormfather will probably decide.

And if there is going to be a champion of honor wouldn't cultivation get one too?

Lift serms a likely candidate for that as she's already gifted by the nightwatcher.

Also Lift is not a surgeon, just a healer.

[Arondell]

Anyone else think Adolin will be chosen as the Champion to challenge Odium's Champion?

 

The question that immediately came to me is "Chosen by whom?"

 

Tanavast/Honor is dead and the shard shattered.   I'm guessing Cultivation could still choose a champion but it would be Cultivation's champion and there are some indications that Cultivation has become a bit indifferent to humanity since the death of Honor.

 

Edit : Also I don't really see a particular need for their to be a singular champion to oppose any champion Odium might appoint.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Arondell

[Mimiddle04]

Again... Do we know The Good Guys will pick a Champion just because Odium might?

 

I can't think of a quote that says the good guys get a Champion.  But that's how the system of Champions works.  If one side chooses one you choose one.  Like David and Goliath, or in AsoIaF Bran vs. That guy or Prince Oberon vs. the Mountain.  When one side picks a champion it's not that guy against your entire army, that wouldn't make sense.  It's implied by saying "force him to pick a champion" that Honor is trying to say "pick a champion because he's pretty much bound by the rules to pick his own."

 

 

If they do pick a champion, I think we haven't met them yet. I'm thinking it will be in the second story arc because that will resolve the story. It's possibly that it could be Lift. Sanderson is heavily emphasizing the fact that surgeons can be fighters and Lift is a surgeon. 

 

Like a couple people already said, surgeon and healer are not the same thing.  Besides that if it were going to be a healer Kaladin would make more sense.  He is a better fighter and would have however long to learn more before the duel.  He is also most likely alive during the second arc because at one point Sanderson thought of giving him a second book but decided against it.  Lift might make sense if she becomes more awesome and actually learns how to fight, but until we know more she isn't a good choice in my opinion.

 

 

I doubt Adolin will be chosen as the champion based on his fighting skills, we know Taln is going to be a main character later on and he's a Herald so he's already kind of honor's champion and i doubt any radiant at least in there present state can come close to him in fighting skills. There is dalinar too, and now that he's a radiant his age will be not that much of a factor.

Also i doubt it will be in the hands of the humans, the Stormfather will probably decide.

And if there is going to be a champion of honor wouldn't cultivation get one too?

Lift serms a likely candidate for that as she's already gifted by the nightwatcher.

 

Taln is insane from thousands of years of torture.  Also, and I have no proof of this at all, I would guess Heralds can't be champions for some reason.  My main reason for guessing that is that they would have chosen a champion among themselves a long time ago and tried to end this then.  I think Brandon's reason for giving him a flashback book is to explain and answer all the questions people have about the oathpact, where the heralds came from, when Odium came to Roshar, and all that stuff.  It doesn't necessarily mean he'll ever be a sane person with insightful modern day POV.

 

Dalinar is amazing at fighting, as we've seen a few times.  And while stormlight will basically negate his old age, he is still old.  An old guy with stormlight is still older than a young guy with stormlight.  So I'd say physical ability wise, Adolin is the better choice.  I'd also point out Dalinar doesn't have a Blade, and his spren won't become one for him.  Unless he uses an Honorblade he isn't going to be much of a fighter.  Also Adolin is basically in his prime and even Sadaeas (who was a great duelist in his day) and Dalinar admire his fighting prowess.  I'd say he has a chance at being as good or better than Dalinar by the time they pick a champion.  

 

Last, about Cultivation getting a champion.  It's not exactly how champions work.  Each side of a fight gets to designate one.  If Cultivation is a third side to the fight she might get one, but I think she'll either stay out of it or side with Honor.  As far as Lift being her champion.  Lift is one of the Orders of the Knights.  To me, even the Orders whose spren are partially of cultivation, all Orders are of Honor.  They are mimicing the Honorblades and so even the ones that aren't bonding Honor spren, like Syl, are still of Honor.  Even the cryptics because lies can be honorable too.  A white lie is honorable, or the lies Shallan tells when she shows people what they could be rather than what they are.  Those are examples of honor.  So I believe anyone who is a Knight would represent Honor.

[Mimiddle04]

The question that immediately came to me is "Chosen by whom?"

 

Tanavast/Honor is dead and the shard shattered.   I'm guessing Cultivation could still choose a champion but it would be Cultivation's champion and there are some indications that Cultivation has become a bit indifferent to humanity since the death of Honor.

 

Edit : Also I don't really see a particular need for their to be a singular champion to oppose any champion Odium might appoint.

 

I explained a little above but:

 

1.  I'm not sure who would choose.  I'd guess it'd be the leaders of Humanity so Dalinar or the other Knights.

2. Honor, in his visions to Dalinar, said "force him to choose a champion."  As far as we know Cultivation isn't actively fighting, but Honor still is even if he's dead.  

3.  The implication of the quote above is that you can do that somehow.  My only guess as to how to make Odium choose one champion is to choose one champion yourself.  Why would Odium choose a champion if that person had to fight an entire army?  It wouldn't make sense.  

 

EDIT: SPOILERS FOR Wheel of Time.  It could be something like the final battle in wheel of time where there are armies keeping each other occupied while one champion fights the big bad, or in this case the big bad's champion.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Mimiddle04

[Arondell]

I explained a little above but:

 

1.  I'm not sure who would choose.  I'd guess it'd be the leaders of Humanity so Dalinar or the other Knights.

2. Honor, in his visions to Dalinar, said "force him to choose a champion."  As far as we know Cultivation isn't actively fighting, but Honor still is even if he's dead.  

3.  The implication of the quote above is that you can do that somehow.  My only guess as to how to make Odium choose one champion is to choose one champion yourself.  Why would Odium choose a champion if that person had to fight an entire army?  It wouldn't make sense.  

 

Actually I don't think Honor does say "force him to choose a champion."  I can only find two references to that.

 

 

“I wish I could do more,” repeated the figure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 997). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

and

 

 

Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often. This is the best advice I can give you.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 76). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

To me at least it seems Tanavast is recommending that they try to maneuver the situation to get Odium to choose a champion.  They can't force him.  There is, I think, an implication that convincing Odium to appoint a champion opens up a potential avenue of attack.  Also based on other Cosmere works being appointed a champion of a shard isn't simply an honorary title.  Dalinar or anyone else can say <insert name here> is Honors champion all he wants.  Unless he has the backing of the shard, which is shattered, it isn't going to mean a whole lot.

[Mimiddle04]

Actually I don't think Honor does say "force him to choose a champion."  I can only find two references to that.

 

Sorry, I was quoting from memory.  I see where you are coming from.  I didn't take the champion thing the same way you did.  Do you mean mistborn when you say based on other cosmere books? And I interpreted Honor's line about Odium having to follow certain rules to mean if you use a champion to challenge him he will have to choose one.  Or he could possibly deny it and choose war again, but because he's lost so many times he would likely agree to the champion fight.  If there is a way to get Odium to choose a champion I don't think it'd be by tricking him or something where his champion ended up fighting an unfair battle.  I think you'd have to get him to choose one by offering one of your own.

 

That's just how I thought of it, it doesn't mean I'm right.  But that's the whole reasoning behind my post.  

[Oudeis he/him]

Mimiddle: A lot of what you post is your personal opinion. It's entirely possible that it will end up being accurate, but I would personally be surprised. I've found in the past any time I assume Mr. Sanderson will simply follow the trope and do something the way it's always been done, I've been mistaken. If it does work out that both sides will appoint Champions, I suspect it will turn out to be a subversion of the trope.

 

It's also an assumption that "champion" means a one-on-one duel. Maybe Odium's Champion will be charged with "Find this artifact in time," or "Lead my armies" or even "be very charismatic and go to all the nations, convincing them to fight amongst themselves so that my everstorm simply kills them".

EDIT:

That WoB confused a lot of people. Brandon later clarified that to say that you can bond Honorblades.

Considering the conflicting W's-o-B and the context, I would still be surprised if "Bond an Honorblade" is as simple as picking it up and inhaling the nearest gemstone. But, admittedly, it's possible he's simply changed his mind entirely since that first, unambiguous WoB.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Ooklalhoo'Elin

[Arondell]

My take on Honors advice was that Dalinar and the radiants should try to convince Odium that unless Odium appoints a champion he will lose again.  This does not require that an opposing champion exist.  For some reason a champion, while powerful, is apparently also a risk of some sort.  I have kind of gotten the impression that Honor chose to play the long game in the hopes that Odium will get impatient and slip up.  As honor said though "...it is not certain."

[Oudeis he/him]

Keep in mind, Desolations, near as we can tell, are already army against army. So far, according to Tanavast, Rayse has lost every single time. Is it possible Honor's had Champions this whole time, i.e., the Heralds, and that this is why he's always won? Perhaps the Champion would simply be one more tool for Odium in addition to his armies, not instead of (see above where I suggest that the Champion's drive might be to "lead Odium's armies"). So, it would be something like an Odium Herald, someone who would fight alongside the Voidbringers the way the Heralds fight alongside humans, helping them win pivotal battles just as the Heralds do.

 

Basically I see a lot of assumptions in this thread, that there's only one possible thing "appoint a Champion" might mean. It's entirely possible I'm wrong and Mr. Sanderson will simply follow the trope this time. It would, in classic Sanderson fashion, be unique for him.

 

Hrm... sidenote. If the Heralds are already the Champions of Honor, and between Desolations they go to Braize to be tortured and broken... is it possible that if Odium chooses a Champion, this person will spend the time between Desolations on Roshar, forced to live among the common people, giving humanity the chance to win him over and convince him to reform and betray Odium on humanity's behalf? Just spitballin' here.

[Mimiddle04]

Keep in mind, Desolations, near as we can tell, are already army against army. So far, according to Tanavast, Rayse has lost every single time. Is it possible Honor's had Champions this whole time, i.e., the Heralds, and that this is why he's always won? Perhaps the Champion would simply be one more tool for Odium in addition to his armies, not instead of (see above where I suggest that the Champion's drive might be to "lead Odium's armies"). So, it would be something like an Odium Herald, someone who would fight alongside the Voidbringers the way the Heralds fight alongside humans, helping them win pivotal battles just as the Heralds do.

 

Basically I see a lot of assumptions in this thread, that there's only one possible thing "appoint a Champion" might mean. It's entirely possible I'm wrong and Mr. Sanderson will simply follow the trope this time. It would, in classic Sanderson fashion, be unique for him.

 

Hrm... sidenote. If the Heralds are already the Champions of Honor, and between Desolations they go to Braize to be tortured and broken... is it possible that if Odium chooses a Champion, this person will spend the time between Desolations on Roshar, forced to live among the common people, giving humanity the chance to win him over and convince him to reform and betray Odium on humanity's behalf? Just spitballin' here.

 

Yeah, there are assumptions in this thread.  It's just a thought of what might happen 8 books from now.  The idea that anything guessed this far in advance is accurate is a long shot at best.  

 

I'm basing my guess, and this entire thread, on a couple of lines in the book and extrapolating what we know of the world so far to come up with an idea.  

1.  Honor said try to get Odium to choose a champion.  

2.  When the King is about to put Kaladin in prison they explain that Sadaeas could choose a champion to take his place and so they lost their chance to kill him.  To me this shows their idea of choosing a champion is aligned with the normal meaning of the term.  When they discussed the plan against Sadaeas at one point someone points out he might appoint a champion.  Indicating they have a definition of choosing a champion similar to the standard definition.

 

I think it makes more sense to take it for what it says than make jumps and come up with your own meaning.

 

If you interpret all this differently that's cool.  I'd like to read your thread on why it makes sense that choosing a champion means what you think it means.

 

Yes, I'm guessing.  They might not even take Honor's advice.  Brandon could change what it means to be a champion or to choose a champion.  The whole story could end before they get to that point...Anything can happen in 8000 more pages of text.  I just started this thread to see if mankind chooses a champion do people think it would be Adolin over Kaladin or another option all together.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Mimiddle04

[Oudeis he/him]

That's not when they talk about Sadeas appointing a Champion... I believe that Shallan mentions it when we first hear about the whole plan, or perhaps Navani does. They admit that they might not get to kill Sadeas, but that even if he does appoint a Champion, they'll still shame him and win his Shards.