Poison in Mistborn

[Lord Tavash Shar]

So a question has come up and I wanted the 17th shards input. What would the effects of Aluminum be as a poison on an Allomancer trying to burn metals.

 

As Aluminum poisoning is a real thing:

 

http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=164929

 

We know via hemalurgy that Blood in motion matters to at least on metallic art.

 

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Hemalurgy

 

And that Aluminum is "Allomantically inert":

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Aluminum

 

one of my Crew is postulating that an Aluminum based poison could be used stop someone from investing in any way. 

 

Thoughts?

[Twenty@20 he/him]

As I understand, it would be impossible to poison a Mistborn or an Aluminium Gnat with Aluminium as they will simply burn it away. For everyone else who can't burn Aluminium allomantically will have to suffer the physical effects from its poisoning as usual. However I don't think poisoning an Allomancer who cannot burn Aluminium will affect his allomantic abilities for other metals

I may be wrong in my assessment, so a confirmation from more experienced sharders would be great.

[Argent he/him]

Aluminum is weird. But I doubt a non-magical poison, even one based on aluminum, could stop a person from Investing. After all, the reason it has an Allomantic effect (and I am going to argue that "Allomantically inert" is not a good phrasing, aluminum does have an effect, it just requires certain conditions to be met - in a way it is no more inert than copper or bronze if there are no Allomancers around) is because Allomancers can burn it, it interacts with Allomancy, it allows the "caster" to access (an aspect of) the power of Preservation.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

The main reason I'm contemplating that there is more to it is that Aluminum bullets cannot be healed by Feruchemical gold and it deny Kblooded and Allomantic pewter things like dense tissue and there extra health.

It should do something to attempts to invest internally at the least sense its being carried around in there blood at that point.

[Pathfinder]

Aluminum bullets cannot be healed by Feruchemical gold and it deny Kblooded and Allomantic pewter things like dense tissue and there extra health.

Is there WoB or any evidence in book that supports that? Not saying you are wrong or right, just wanted to check if this is new info I haven't heard yet. 

[king of nowhere]

Aluminium is weird, and maybe not totally consistent.

On one side, it seems aluminium blocks allomantic pulses. if you weear aluminum around your head, you cannot be soothed. you don't have to have a brain made of aluminium.

on the other, aluminium do not stop a coinshot from pushing metals behind it. if it did, then you wouldn't need a whole aluminium bullet - you could just make regular bullets with a light aluminium coating, and they would be much cheaper and more effective (aluminium has lower mass, thus lower penetration power).

So, would wrapping an allomancer in tinfoil stop him from using allomancy? yes? no? only some specific powers? We don't have evidence on that. Or, rather, we have contradicting evidence.

 

But of something I amm relatively sure (by that I mean, if it was the real world I would bet huge money on it, but sanderson may as well allow it for rule of cool, so I cannot say for sure): if wrapping an allomancer in tinfoil stops his powers, and if putting aluminium in the blood of an allomancer counts as wrapping him in tinfoil, then the level of aluminium needed to stop or dampen his power significnatly would kill him by aluminium poisoning. You take a relatively high amount to block allomancy with a foil, and the blood is very sensitive to metal contaminations.

On the other hand, something similar could work: a bomb loaded with aluminium dust and glue, would spray aluminium dust that would stick to the skin of allomancers (or anyone else), blocking them but probably avoiding much posioning because the metal stays outside the body. However, such a bomb is not very practical to deploy or use. I can see it used in a hostage situation where coinshots are threatening to kill them and have no guns. that's pretty much the only situation I can think of where it would not be just more convenient to load the bomb with explosive and just blow those allomancers to bits.

 

 

The main reason I'm contemplating that there is more to it is that Aluminum bullets cannot be healed by Feruchemical gold

I don't think that is the case. in the final shootdown of aol, all the villains are using aluminium bullets. and one of them hit vayne, who heal from it. Now, if the wound was coated in aluminium, that maybe wouuld have an effect. maybe.

 

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I wonder if alumiinium is completely inert,  or if it is like a coppercloud, that you can overcome it by just pushing harder.

Edited December 10, 2014 by king of nowhere

[Lord Tavash Shar]

@Pathfinder http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1049

 

KURKISTAN

What would happen if you shot a Thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?—[Note: Brandon initially misunderstands the question, as you shall see.]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ah, that's a good question. And, um.. the wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out, and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

KURKISTAN

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, you're talking about Thu— Oh, okay. Yeah, ummm... It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't really have a huge effect on them.

KURKISTAN

Ah, okay. 'Cause Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

BRANDON SANDERSON

What was he thinking of... There is some weird interaction but—

KURKISTAN

< rudely interrrupts > In the wedding scene [in Alloy of Law] Wax thinks that they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs and I was like "oh that's a typo" and Peter was like "oh no it's not..."

BRANDON SANDERSON

No no... That would just be—it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone. It's just the same as the Bloodmaker.

KURKISTAN

< Various pleasantries from me apologizing for all the confusion >

@King of Nowhere

 

Aluminum poisoning starts at 100mcg/L how ever even doses of up to 330mcg/L have been used in animal testing with the animal surviving: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp22-c2.pdf

In this case the question is if aluminum above and beyond what is naturally in your body would interfere with your ability to Invest sense its in your blood circulating everywhere it goes in your body.

[Kaymyth she/her]

on the other, aluminium do not stop a coinshot from pushing metals behind it. if it did, then you wouldn't need a whole aluminium bullet - you could just make regular bullets with a light aluminium coating, and they would be much cheaper and more effective (aluminium has lower mass, thus lower penetration power).

 

Wait, I thought that aluminum *did* block Coinshots and Lurchers.  After all, it blocks Allomantic pulses, then it would also block the blue lines that are an iron or steel burner's Allomantic links to their anchors.

 

Is there something else out there other than the aluminum bullets being solid that makes you say this?  Because I would counter with pointing out that the only aluminum bullets we've seen thus far were the ones the Vanishers were using.  We know that the guns (and presumably the bullets) were designed and built by a kidnapped gunsmith.  Call me crazy, but somehow I doubt that he'd have been feeling magnanimous enough to put effort into designing an aluminum-cased bullet over a simpler solid design for the sake of saving his poor captors some of their hard-stolen resources.

[king of nowhere]

Wait, I thought that aluminum *did* block Coinshots and Lurchers.  After all, it blocks Allomantic pulses, then it would also block the blue lines that are an iron or steel burner's Allomantic links to their anchors.

 

Is there something else out there other than the aluminum bullets being solid that makes you say this?  Because I would counter with pointing out that the only aluminum bullets we've seen thus far were the ones the Vanishers were using.  We know that the guns (and presumably the bullets) were designed and built by a kidnapped gunsmith.  Call me crazy, but somehow I doubt that he'd have been feeling magnanimous enough to put effort into designing an aluminum-cased bullet over a simpler solid design for the sake of saving his poor captors some of their hard-stolen resources.

Good point, I have no other evidence, really. I myself  did believe aluminium blocks  coinshots and lurchers until I started writing that post, and then I wondered about it some more because of the bullets...

but my proof is not solely on the vanisher's bullets. if aluminium coated bullets were viable, then more people would have them. a minor plot point is that ranette did not make vindication in aluminium because she was not rich enough. but she certainly is not poor, and if a thin coating of aluminium was enough, then she'd definitely could do it. wax does not have aluminium bullets, and if aluminium coated bullets worked, they should be available for sale. After all, it would take only a fraction of gram of aluminium to make such a bullet, totally affordable.

So, if aluminium-coated bullets worked, it is at least strange that they were never mentioned.

 

@ Lotd Tavash Shar: well, your data supports my idea. 100 micrograms per liter are less than one milligram in your whole blood, and that's way too little to make a coating around you.

But now that I think about it, the whole point is probably moot,  because aluminium in blood is ionic, and as far as we know metal need to be in metallic forms to work for allomancers. we  never saw anyone pushing on concrete, despite it containing plenty of iron silicate. we never see anyone pushing on marble, which is calcium carbonate. So, aluminium dissolved in the blood would have no allomantic properties. And as for injeting in the blood metallic aluminium dust... well, let's  just say that the blood does not react well with solid particles in it. You'd definitely kill the allomancers.

Anyway,  get an upvote ffor finding the data. As a  scientist, I always appreciate someone who can provide hard facts to a discussion.

[Inkthinker]

Wax wouldn't normally use aluminum bullets because he Pushes on bullets all the time. He's either boosting their punch or he's using them as custom-placed anchors for his own propulsion.

I'm pretty sure the balance to aluminum weapons is that they're not as durable as those made of steel. Barrels and cylinders, especially, are prone to damage. An aluminum pistol require more maintenance and upkeep than one made of steel.

You can read up on the various costs and benefits of different pistol materials here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/pistol_construction_materials.htm

It's worth noting that we don't use aluminum for barrels or cylinders in RL guns because it's not really strong enough for the explodey bits. In RL guns aluminum is pretty much exclusively used for the frame, but there's a bit of handwavery for the books.

For the purposes of the MAG or other experiments, it's fair to assume a full-aluminum weapon is easily damaged in ways that make it inaccurate or inoperable, possibly even dangerous to the wielder (a cylinder out of alignment with the barrel could cause a potentially explosive failure). In addition to being expensive, they're just not as durable (or, most likely, as accurate) as a steel weapon. They really have only a couple benefits: they're very light and they're allomantically inert.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Inkthinker

[Kaymyth she/her]

It also may take more than a thin coating of aluminum.  Aluminum and its alloys are more fragile than lead or steel; a shell of aluminum might well get stripped or chipped when the bullet is fired, which would defeat the purpose of using it in the first place.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

So at best an Aluminum based poison "Might" deny a Bloodmaker or Pewter arm there supernatural ability to deal with such things and kill them the same as a non-invested human.

[Pathfinder]

I do not know much about creating ballistics, and this is coming from a movie with very sketchy logic, but could a gun maker develop a bullet like the liquid silver ones in the movie Underworld? Basically a bullet that upon entering the body, breaks up, releasing a liquid core. That would deliver the aluminum into the body, and prevent the bloodmaker/thug from removing it to heal. Thoughts?

[Lord Tavash Shar]

The Aluminum would need to be heated to melting by the Discharge and then not Cool back to a solid during flight..... Yea no. Thats too much for current tech on our level, No way they are doing that anytime soon.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Lord Tavash Shar

[king of nowhere]

I do not know much about creating ballistics, and this is coming from a movie with very sketchy logic, but could a gun maker develop a bullet like the liquid silver ones in the movie Underworld? Basically a bullet that upon entering the body, breaks up, releasing a liquid core. That would deliver the aluminum into the body, and prevent the bloodmaker/thug from removing it to heal. Thoughts?

I have no idea what the movie is (except that from the title I ccan figure out it relates to vampires) but i'd say it would be possible. but impractical.  first of all, the core need to be liquid at room temperature. that means aluminium needs to be in ionic form, which would make it allomantically inert. an option could be a mercury/alluminium amalgam (I can't find if it is liquid at room temperature or not) but if your purpose is to capture the target alive, injecting several grams of mercury in him is not the way to go, and if your purpose is to kill him in a fight, that kind of poisoning will take seveeral minutes to come in effect, you're generally better off just using a normal bullet. a bullet with a liquid core, in fact, would have a lower penetration capability because it would deform on impact. a deadly, immediately incapacitating wound from it would become a light wound, deadly only after poioning takes effect.

It could, on the other hand, be one of the few convenient ways to kill the lord ruler. a  bullet that is aluminium outside (so he can't push on it) then iron (which is not corroded by mercury) then mercury/aluminium amalgam could carry on enough aluminium to stop his powers, and enough mercury to kil him for that.

It depends strictly on how much aluminium in the blood one can have before it interferes with allomancy, and how much aluminium you can dissolve in mercury before it becomes solid, and whether such an amalgam would still have the allomantic properties of aluminium or not.

Oh, and by the way, mercury facilitates corrosion of aluminium, which would oxidize it to +3, which would negage its allomancy. so the power negation would work at most for a few minutes. You'd need several shots to succeed.

[Oudeis he/him]

I think you're right, it's the perfect "silver bullet" for the Lord Ruler. It doesn't actually have to interfere with his allomancy, it's simply a poison he cannot heal, no matter how much he compounds feruchemical gold. By making it an alloy, it's also something he cannot safely simply burn away as though it were a reserve. I do wonder, however, if it's the sort of thing he could burn pure aluminum to get rid of... you'd have to hope he doesn't walk around with a dose close to hand, and then keep him away from it (which would require not-dying) for the minutes it would take him to die.

 

Or, through weeks of espionage, learn where he keeps his emergency aluminum, and manage to steal it at the same time your sniper friend sacrifices his life by pumping The Lord Ruler full of healing-proof poison; unless the poison does totally prevent his allomancy, which seems maybe unlikely, I find it unlikely that you can get close enough to put three bullets in The Lord Ruler without him being able to retaliate within a few minutes. Though, Vin's attack on his malatium shadow did prove that sneak attacks are technically possible against him. Just not sneak attacks you want away from.

[Pathfinder]

Just to clarify, I have included a link that details the bullet a bit more, and includes an image. The reason I brought it up, is the aluminum bullet did sound like it functioned the way silver would on a lycan in the movie. If you shot a lycan with a silver bullet, it would burn/hurt, and could not be healed till the bullet was removed. Older lycans with a greater healing capacity, could remove the bullet, heal in seconds and keep going. This new bullet was to get the silver right into the blood stream, and make removing the bullet pointless. Now in the Underworld case, it was with the goal of poisoning, while my goal is more to inflict wounds that cannot be healed nor removed. So if the initial bullet hits, and then releases the liquid aluminum, then the lord ruler would be left clawing at the wound trying to scrape out the liquid in order to heal from it. Thereby a head shot, or a shot to any other vital part of the body could potentially be lethal since it could not be healed. But as I said this movie acted on very sketchy logic. They also had an extremely impossible UV bullet to kill vampires that worked on the same principle, and in fact was the progenitor of the silver nitrate bullet. I just didn't know if it was mechanically feasible at all in the real world to make such a silver nitrate bullet nontheless an aluminum version. So based on what you are saying, theoretically adding mercury could keep the aluminum in a liquid state for the extent of the trajectory and penetration? Here is the link i mentioned earlier:

 

http://underworld.wikia.com/wiki/Silver_Nitrate_Bullets

[king of nowhere]

 So based on what you are saying, theoretically adding mercury could keep the aluminum in a liquid state for the extent of the trajectory and penetration

Mercury is a liquid and it dissolves aluminium in a way similat to how water dissolves sugar. However, the more aluminium is dissolved in the mercury, the higher the melting temperature of the resulting amalgam, until at some aluminium concentration (no idea how much) it won't be liquid anymore at room temperature. as long as you stay below that, the mercury/aluminium amalgam will stay liquid forever, unless you freeze it. and if it is encapsulated in airproof iron, it will last for years at least without corrosion from air.

However, aluminium is very reactive, and the only reason it do not burn in contacct with air is that it froms a thin layer of aluminium oxide on the surface that protects it from further oxidation. but mercury interferes with the formation of that film, so once exposed to water or air the aluminium will oxidize very fast, no more than a few minutes.  And after it oxidizes, it won't prevent feruchemical healing anymore.

So, it  would be better to shoot several bullets with intervals of a few minutes, to always keep enough alumminium in the blood of the victim. ultimately, the chance to killl tlr with that bullet relies on a lot of ifs. if the mercury/aluminium amalgam can still block allomancy. if it cannot be burned allomantically. if the fraction of gram of aluminium you can inoculate that way is enough to stop feruchemical healing completely. if the aluminium does not oxidize in a matter of a few seconds. but it would be really nice if it worked.

[Oudeis he/him]

Interesting. Trying to go for an insta-kill headshot or the heart is your best bet; you'll need surprise to make even the first shot, and there's no way a Lord Ruler you just shot is letting you live for another minute to shoot him again.

 

One quick mention: I'm led to believe the human body is much warmer on the inside than room temp, so you could prolly have a slightly higher mix of aluminum. Once it's inside, who knows if it would prevent The Lord Ruler from just storing in a brassmind and solidifying it, but by then the real damage would be done... once it's been dispersed through the body, as it would be in the first few seconds, it can be as solid as he wants, it's still not a single bullet able to be dug out of a single spot. I guess best case scenario for him, if you only get an arm, he can freeze it, then chop off the whole arm and regrow another. Headshot or hitting his trunk obviates this.

 

So... it sounds like, if you hit him and he doesn't die, it's a race to see if the poison manages to kill him before it oxidizes too much and he's able to heal it out, and it sounds like in such a case, it seems like oxidizing would definitely happen too quickly. A headshot it is, then, because being unable to heal a headwound for about fifteen seconds or so would prolly kill The Lord Ruler enough for him to be unable to recover from it.

[Moogle]

Off-topic, but it does have me wondering:

 

Could you even hit TLR with a sniper rifle? He knew of electrum, and he was apparently a savant in most all the metals, so was he burning electrum all the time? Electrum would give him a second of warning to let him know that he should tap speed and get to finding the insolent subject who was blasphemous enough to try and kill him.

[Pathfinder]

Off-topic, but it does have me wondering:

 

Could you even hit TLR with a sniper rifle? He knew of electrum, and he was apparently a savant in most all the metals, so was he burning electrum all the time? Electrum would give him a second of warning to let him know that he should tap speed and get to finding the insolent subject who was blasphemous enough to try and kill him.

I agree with the logic, but going on that premise, would he not have then seen what Vin would have done before she tore his metal minds from him?

[Oudeis he/him]

Given that we're unsure exactly how electrum works, or if it would even help with that, I think Pathfinder's point that Vin was, in fact, able to surprise him a few times proves that either he wasn't using it, or it can't help with such things.

 

Recall that electrum gives you a cloud. He might have seen several of his shadows suddenly fall forward, but in the two or so seconds he has to react, he'd have to first deduce that it wasn't simply one of his selves tripping over the torn patch of carpet he keeps meaning to have replaced with the blood of his victims, realize what's actually going on, and react appropriately. Nothing impossible for someone with functionally limitless stores of feruchemical zinc and steel, but hardly a foregone conclusion. I feel like the odds of catching him at a moment when he's sufficiently distracted for three seconds to pass without him picking out the right five or six shadows out of the dozens, hundreds, who knows, approaches a certainty.

[Moogle]

I agree with the logic, but going on that premise, would he not have then seen what Vin would have done before she tore his metal minds from him?

 

Uhm, there's a lot TLR could have done to win the fight against Vin and he never really should have lost. Vin Pushes his bracers away from him, but TLR never Pulls them back to him, he never taps a bunch of zinc for the mental speed to figure out what the heck just happened and how he can counter it, and he stops Pushing on Vin because... reasons. I'm not sure why TLR didn't tap speed to snatch up the bracers, either. Did he lose the ability to do Feruchemy and Allomancy both the moment he lost his atium bracers? Why? We know they were made of atium, so it's not like they were powering him via nicrosil shenanigans or something.

 

I agree with your point though, I think. Having re-read the sections, TLR is entirely too surprised by things to have been burning electrum constantly. Or it's like Outis is saying and electrum isn't quite as useful as I'm thinking.

 

Also, things made of aluminum don't have atium shadows iirc. It's entirely likely that an aluminum bullet would mess with TLR's ability to see the future with electrum even if that worked.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[Pathfinder]

so in rough conclusion, using advanced technology far exceeding the level existing on Scadrial, which entails a sniper rifle, an aluminum bullet with an liquid mercury aluminum core, and a clear headshot, a normal person could potentially kill the Lord Ruler. Pah, who needs Vin and preservation after all! lol