Wayne is suspiciously good at imitation (Spoilers for AoL and SoS)

[LiquidBlue]

So I just discovered the Shadows of Self excerpt on Brandon's website. After reading it I was struck by the ability that Wayne has to immerse himself in a role. From the description it seemed to go beyond just acting. It seemed to be some additional power.

 

Then I remembered the Kholoss-blooded and I wondered if Wayne might be a Kandra-blooded. That is, he has a Kandra in his ancestor y and has inherited some of their skill at imitation.

 

This has been brought up before (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7399-wayne/?hl=%2Bwayne+%2Bkandra), but that discussion quickly turned from the possibility of a Kandra ancestor to a discussion about whether he was a full feruchemist.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

We know that Harmony made the Kolosis a True breeding species but the same has not been said for the kandra. Seems like a straightforward question to ask Brandon.

[gjustice99 she/her]

Someone should really ask Brandon this because this is a really good idea.

[Oudeis he/him]

...But the kandra aren't supernaturally skilled at acting, they're simply excellently trained at acting and are supernaturally skilled at having a malleable form. That I know of, Wayne is never indicated as having any ability, however limited, to alter his own actual shape, he's just a superlative actor. Unless there's an example somewhere?

[Moogle]

My first thought on seeing the title was, "No! That's crazy! Brandon would never allow that to happen, humans and kandra are not even biologically compatible, that doesn't make sense."

 

And then I remembered SA. sigh. Crazy genetic biological impossibilities don't restrict a whole lot in the cosmere, which I guess makes sense, but still.

 

I agree with Outis that Wayne's PoV doesn't really give any evidence for him being a kandra, though I'm not sure having a kandra ancestor in general is ruled out.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis he/him]

Concur: I didn't meant to imply that I think the idea is impossible, simply that the evidence you've provided does not support it. It could end up being true, but if so I hazard the opinion that it would be completely unforeshadowed.

[Shadowspren he/him]

In AoL, it mentions during the wedding that they [Wax and Wayne] must have had Terris ancestors to have Feruchemical abilities. And since we find out in HoA that he Kandra were originally Terris people, this new knowledge could have lead to the Kandra rejoining the Terris people after the end of HoA and allowing for that chance to have Terris-Kandra breeding. Just a thought 

 

EDIT: However I agree that this would not give Wayne the ability to act and impersonate stright up, but given his background (that we know of) I would think he would have ample opportunity to pick it up. So it would not give him the ability to impersonate, just the ability to learn exptremely well.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Zaci-chan

[Oudeis he/him]

...But again, "the ability to learn how to perform" is not something genetically inherent to the kandra. It's something they all, perforce, had to learn how to do extremely well. That's like saying that if you cut off the tails of rats for generation after generation, you'll eventually breed tailless rats.

 

And while all of the original mistwraiths were once Terrismen, only ten living kandra remember being them, and that was 1500 years ago, if those ten all survived the Resolution, which even if they did, their minds and memories would not have remained fully intact. Again, it's not impossible that the kandra would have joined and interbred with the Terris, but there's about as much reason to think that's true as to believe I am Prince Harry Windsor. People exist in the world, he's one, I'm one, and you've never seen us together, so there's no reason I can't be Prince Harry; there's just no reason to think I am.

[LiquidBlue]

There is no evidence that Wayne has any physical malleability, and I do not suggest that he has it. However, I do not believe that the Kandra's aptitude at imitation was strictly a physical one. Just like they have the ability to shape their bodies, I think that it makes sense that they can shape their minds as well. In the Shadows of Self excerpt Wayne seems to be shaping his mind to an extent and facility that seems to suggest something is going on beyond him being a very good actor.

 

Further, since the Kholoss, who formally could not interbreed with humans, now can, it seems reasonable that the Kandra were given the same option.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

There is no evidence that Wayne has any physical malleability, and I do not suggest that he has it. However, I do not believe that the Kandra's aptitude at imitation was strictly a physical one. Just like they have the ability to shape their bodies, I think that it makes sense that they can shape their minds as well. In the Shadows of Self excerpt Wayne seems to be shaping his mind to an extent and facility that seems to suggest something is going on beyond him being a very good actor.

 

Further, since the Kholoss, who formally could not interbreed with humans, now can, it seems reasonable that the Kandra were given the same option.

 

Its Definitely not out of the question for them to be able to breed with humans and/or each other since they were once Human and I agree that the excerpt certainly feels like there is something going on with waynes acting.

That said I think it would make just as much sense for Wayne to have been "Trained" in acting by a kandara

[Oudeis he/him]

Eeeh.... I still find flaws with your reasoning. The koloss were never able to breed in the first place, and their race would have died out without intervention. A side effect of Sazed making them a stable race was that they are (apparently) capable of interbreeding with humans. Mistwraiths have always been able to breed (and I'm not sure whether or not the Kandra ever could). There was no pressing need to change them, they could already breed amongst themselves and their race was not going to die out.

 

Also, Koloss were always physically humans who had been altered via hemalurgy. Kandra had once been human, true, but changed into something utterly different via Direct Shardic Intervention. It would take significantly more finesse to adapt Kandra to make them able to interbreed; as we saw at the Ascension, Harmony had none of this finesse. His vast stores of knowledge gave him the specifics to remake the world, not according to his own plan, but according to a strict set of guidelines. We know from experience that trying to invent a goal and then achieve it was the next thing to impossible. ((EDIT: Actually, I realized I'm wrong here. Rashek made the kandra in the first place. So clearly, whatever alteration that required was something he was actually capable of with little to no experience. Still, it's one thing to take a human and change it into a completely different but stable race. It might be much harder to change that other race in only the specific way of the capacity to interbreed with humanity, while keeping it an otherwise stable and unchanged race. Still, I concede that this objection is now significantly weaker than it once was)). Without a pressing reason, I don't think he would have felt compelled to take the enormous risk that would have been required for him to attempt a genetic alteration of that level with no template, and there's every reason to think that if he tried, he'd've done more harm than good.

 

That said, he's had 300 years to test and practice, so maybe it's something he only just recently did. I still don't see why, but it's possible.

 

Regarding his acting skill, since we never get the PoV of a kandra in character, I'm not sure where you're getting your information from. TenSoon, in his P's-o-V, is almost always himself. The one time he's not, he's actually a reasonably terrible portrayer of Kelsier (never having seen him and not having digested his own body.) It's never mentioned or even implied that any part of the process, or any aspect of being a Kandra, magically enhances their acting skills. We see that they have extraordinary skill, but not supernatural skill.

 

There's nothing to say your idea is false. But it's entirely speculative, with no factual basis. Which is totally fine, if you want some real speculation with no basis, check out my vague brainstorms about gemhearts over in Stormlight Archive (spoilers, duh). It's an interesting idea that has sparked a fascinating discussion, and if you want to believe it personally, whatever increases your enjoyment of the book is awesome.

 

Personally, I like the idea that Wayne is simply skilled and talented. Not everyone has to have powers. Marasi has allomancy, yet her skill with a weapon and her brilliant intellect are what gives her agency in the story. I like that not everything has to be dependent on magic or supernatural phenomena. I almost feel like it would cheapen Wayne to say, "Oh, no, this special thing about you? It's not actually special. It's just something tacked on to you. If all arcana were removed from you, you'd be a boring person."

 

EDIT: To add a link and to concede half a point.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Outis

[Crash & Charm he/him]

The kandra have a serious societal obligation to learn how to become superb actors. The gifts could also have something to do with it to. I think Wayne just has a natural talent for accents. I can pick out the parts of an accent in a similar way to how Brandon describes it. I suppose with some practice one could become really good. He also could have improved hearing. This could lead to him being able to sense nuances in people speech.

 

Also remember where he came from. The roughs are a cultural melting pot of outcast. He was probably exposed to millions of different speech patterns as a youth. That helps a great deal.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Just a clarification of Kolloss breeding. In the Alloy of Law MAG Supplement, there's a story about Allomancer Jak. The story reveals that Koloss children are normal humans, though bluer and stronger, until they receive their spikes. Then they become true Koloss.

 

So Koloss are simply Spiked Humans. Kandra are spiked mistwraiths. It makes sense for Koloss to be able to breed with Humans, but Kandra are a different Species.

[Oudeis he/him]

Eh... remember that while Allomancer Jak is a canon work, it's a canon fictional work. At the least, fictionalized. It's not impossible that "Allomancer Jak" is some dude who's never left Luthadel, writing stories about people and places he's never seen. Such things happened all the time in our world, and it's not impossible to imagine that it happened on Scadrial.

 

((Okay truth be told that's not the best link ever... I can't seem to find a place that explains it well. Basically, during the Alaskan Gold Rush, people in the Big Cities were fascinated with what was happening out there, so a whole bunch of reporters got as far as the edge of the frontier... and then sat there in comfort, writing utterly fictional tales of "personal accounts", which were published in every major newspaper across the United States as fact. The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head.))

 

This could be an accurate, or mostly, or at least partially accurate account. Or, it's a complete fabrication. One of the two.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

True, but Jak mentions that Ranette made him a few things to help him out in the roughs. (We don't have confirmation that it's the same Ranette, but how many crazy Inventor ladies name Ranette can there be?) he also has a Terris steward who edits his publications before mailing them to Elendel.

 

So yes, it could be a fictional work, or a (Highly exaggerated) Biographical work.

[Redbird he/him]

I agree more with Outis here, why can't he just be a skilled actor? Although the question about whether or not Kandra are a breeding species is interesting

[gjustice99 she/her]

Maybe he cannot change his body completely, but maybe he has a lot more control over his vocal chords than most people.

[Inkthinker]

Jak gets around, but he likes to embellish. Nevertheless, the additional testimony of Handywrm and Miss Dramali suggest some veracity to his claims. It's not so much that he doesn't go places and do things, it's just that he never lets facts get in the way of a good story.

 

I find Wayne and his abilities more interesting without the need for some supernatural explanation. He's not magic, he's just very good.

[Oudeis he/him]

We only know of his two companions from the books. They could be additional fabrications. Some little old lady in an attic apartment could be writing all three accounts. Unless someone else knows of independent confirmation that even one of those three really exists?

[skaa he/him]

Wayne's Feruchemical metal is Gold, which is intimately tied to Cognitive identity (its healing property depends on how you view yourself). It's possible that the ability to change how you view yourself (in limited ways, I suppose) is a secondary enhancement of Gold Feruchemy, and that Wayne is just using this ability to imitate other people.

 

The problem with that is it implies that all full Feruchemists must also have this enhanced ability to imitate others' personalities, but I don't recall Sazed ever imitating anybody. Perhaps Ferrings (like Mistings) are simply much better at their metal than their full-powered counterparts.

 

Or maybe Wayne is just like Camon, Tyn, and other con men in Brandon's books who are exceptionally good at imitation.

[gjustice99 she/her]

Wayne's Feruchemical metal is Gold, which is intimately tied to Cognitive identity (its healing property depends on how you view yourself). It's possible that the ability to change how you view yourself (in limited ways, I suppose) is a secondary enhancement of Gold Feruchemy, and that Wayne is just using this ability to imitate other people.

 

The problem with that is it implies that all full Feruchemists must also have this enhanced ability to imitate others' personalities, but I don't recall Sazed ever imitating anybody. Perhaps Ferrings (like Mistings) are simply much better at their metal than their full-powered counterparts.

 

Or maybe Wayne is just like Camon, Tyn, and other con men in Brandon's books who are exceptionally good at imitation.

Sazed may have never done it because he had no reason to do any sort of imitation. This can be seen through his opinion on feruchemal atium, which he though (with only the ability of feruchemy) was useless.

Edited December 23, 2014 by gjustice99

[skaa he/him]

Sazed may have never done it because he had no reason to do any sort of imitation. This can be seen through his opinion on feruchemal atium, which he though (with only the ability of feruchemy) was useless.

 

That could be the case, yeah. It would be nice to have evidence that other Gold Feruchemists can imitate other people well, though.

 

Another Gold Feruchemist we know is Miles Dagouter the Gold Compounder. Miles has implied that he can change himself somehow, but via Gold Allomancy, not Feruchemy, so this is not evidence for that Feruchemical gold imitator idea I had. He describes his ability as becoming an "alloy of himself", mixing his past and his present. That's different from what Wayne does, who "mixes" himself with another person, so to speak. I have a feeling that Miles is the kind of person who wouldn't even dream of acting like another person.

[Arondell]

 

 

And then I remembered SA. sigh. Crazy genetic biological impossibilities don't restrict a whole lot in the cosmere, which I guess makes sense, but still.

 

A bit delayed in the asking but has Mr Sanderson ever clarified his statement about the whole Horneaters having some Parshendi "blood" issue?  The idea of two entirely different species with significantly different biochemistry being able to interbreed as matter of course has always grated on my sensibilities.  I can accept deliberate genetic engineering and/or tinkering.  Natural compatibility though just grates.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Arondell

[Oudeis he/him]

A bit delayed in the asking but has Mr Sanderson ever clarified his statement about the whole Horneaters having some Parshendi "blood" issue? The idea of two entirely different species with significantly different biochemistry being able to interbreed as matter of course has always grated on my sensibilities. I can accept deliberate genetic engineering and/or tinkering. Natural compatibility though just grates.

My personal theory involves the listeners getting a boon from the Nightwatcher to save them from extinction which turned them into something human enough to interbreed. But that's lately speculative.