Hoid may have let Scadrial burn...

[Oudeis he/him]

The entire third book might have been totally useless because of Hoid. At the very least, the story would likely have ended differently.

 

I've asked before, what would have happened if Vin had found two beads of lerasium at the Well? Who would have burned the second bead, after they saw what it did to Elend?

 

A thought has recently occurred to me. This is HUGELY speculative, but just imagine. If lerasium truly overwrites your sDNA, this could have the effect of eliminating your access to other arcana. Like, for example, hemalurgy.

 

If they had made the decision to give Vin the second bead, to combine her skill with Elend's raw power and get a single super-Mistborn... could that have healed the part of her that made her a hemalurgist? Overwritten that part of the sDNA that allowed the earring to work for her? If she had... the very next time she went out in the mist, barely days after Ruin was first freed, she would likely have Ascended. Before Ruin consolidated his power, before he gathered the koloss, before the empire was fractured. She would have had time to learn how to use her powers, to communicate with Elend. She could have been a balance to Ruin. With her ability to speak to minds, she could have gathered much more information, and fed it to Elend, all while he continued gathering the information hidden on those plates. It might have led to a far, far different version of the ending of the books.

 

Again, this is a speculative assumption that lerasium doesn't just add to, but actually overwrites your sDNA. I have little to no basis for this assumption. I just think it's cool to ponder.

 

I know it all worked out, but Hoid really was okay with Scadrial burning if he got what he wanted.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

I don't think it would have. Preservation's plan dealt with her being a Hemalurgist. If Lerasium had the ability to heal that, Then that would have been the plan. Elend becoming a Mistborn was just a backup plan.

 

And what is Arcanum? To you mean Investiture?

[Oudeis he/him]

Investiture is the energy itself. An Arcanum, per Mr. Sanderson's use of calling the individual studies "Ars Arcanum", are the formalized practice powered by Investiture. Allomancy or Awakening, for example, as opposed to Vin's direct use of Preservation's power to spin the planet around.

 

Preservation's mind had died thousands of years ago. His plan was to hope his creations could succeed. I disagree with you assertion that literally every step along the path was directed by Preservation's will. I think Preservation's plan was, basically, that someone like Vin would take in the power of Preservation by being in the mists and not being a hemalurgist sometime after using the Well. I could be wrong, and you could be right... but you can't prove that you're right.

 

However someone else already proved me wrong, by pointing out that Rashek gave himself allomancy via lerasium and it didn't erase his feruchemy, so clearly that's not how lerasium works.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Alright. And I'm pretty sure the different systems aren't called Arcanums. Most people just call them Systems.

[Triasmus]

I just barely read a WoB in a different thread that said that Rashek didn't use lerasium. He made himself an immensely powerful allomancer while he was doing all of the other changes to the world.

 

Besides that, I don't think burning lerasium would have really helped Vin out with the hemalurgic thing. Of course, it would come down to how it is that hemalurgy changes the sDNA.

 

One way to look at it would be if the spike does a one time thing right when it enters and then it's basically just sitting in your body like a lump of metal. (If that is how it is, there'd have to be some good reason for why the hemalurgic decay isn't happening. Also, in this way burning lerasium would work according to your theory, until Vin decided to remove the earing for some reason, then another one time instant thing happens and the removal of the metal causes another sDNA change. Normally that change would revert Vin to normal, but because she burned the lerasium she was already normal before the removal so her sDNA would then get changed opposite to the original change.)

 

Hopefully that paragraph was understood. Let's see if I can relate it to numbers. Vin normal = 0. Vin spiked = 3. So when spike goes in, Vin gets +3. When spike comes out, Vin gets -3. Vin is spiked, so she = 3. Burns lerasium, now she = 0. She removes spike for some reason, now she = -3.

 

........ I'm just going to quit that thought process while i'm ahead.... or at least, while I'm not as far behind as I could become...

 

Another way to look at how hemalurgy could work:

While the spike is in, it is constantly exerting "pressure" on the sDNA. Your sDNA knows what normal is and wants to be normal, but it's being held to un-normal by the spike. (This way could explain hemalurgic decay: The spike is constantly exerting some type of pressure or force. When it's in a body, that force is being used to "attack" the sDNA. While it's out of a body, the only thing around for that force to "attack" is the investiture in the spike itself, and from there hemalurgic decay happens.)

 

If spikes worked in this way, the only way I could see the OP working is if the spike was burned out or shorted or whatever at the time of the burning of the lerasium, but I don't think that it's very likely that burning lerasium would do that. There is the possibility, though.

 

 

 

I personally prefer my second idea of how hemalurgy works, but choosing that makes it less likely for the OP theory to be right, in my opinion.

[Oudeis he/him]

My theory is actually that it would simply make Vin not a hemalurgist anymore. The spike would simply stop being a thing that affects her, the way Elend can't access Tindwyl's metalminds. It simply overwrites the part of her spiritweb that was changed at the moment she first became a hemalurgic host, cutting off her access to the earring entirely. Of course, there's the idea that if she ever put the earring back in her bindpoint, she would instantly become a hemalurgist again... a conundrum.

 

 

Alright. And I'm pretty sure the different systems aren't called Arcanums. Most people just call them Systems.

 

Kay, but the author came up with Ars Arcanum. Technically for that to be translated as "The art of the arcane" it would have to mean Arcanum was in the genitive form, meaning that an individual system is called an Arcanis. You can call it what you wish, but I like Mr. Sanderson's term better. "System" sounds too generic for me, and in fact I've most often heard people call it "magic" which I dislike, as to me "magic" is the fairies and pixie dust, think-of-a-thing-and-it-happens, power with no cost, "wingardium leviosa" thing. Or, they use "system of investiture" which I find bulky to type. Arcanis is specific, unique (just like Mr. Sanderson's work), and quick.

[gjustice99 she/her]

Investiture is the energy itself. An Arcanum, per Mr. Sanderson's use of calling the individual studies "Ars Arcanum", are the formalized practice powered by Investiture. Allomancy or Awakening, for example, as opposed to Vin's direct use of Preservation's power to spin the planet around.

 

Preservation's mind had died thousands of years ago. His plan was to hope his creations could succeed. I disagree with you assertion that literally every step along the path was directed by Preservation's will. I think Preservation's plan was, basically, that someone like Vin would take in the power of Preservation by being in the mists and not being a hemalurgist sometime after using the Well. I could be wrong, and you could be right... but you can't prove that you're right.

 

However someone else already proved me wrong, by pointing out that Rashek gave himself allomancy via lerasium and it didn't erase his feruchemy, so clearly that's not how lerasium works.

Actually Mr. Sanderson said that Rashek used the power in the Well of Ascension to grant himself allomancy, not lerasium. Also, he calls the studies "Ars Arcanum" because it is Latin for "the Art of Mystery" which makes perfect sense as they describe how Investure works.  

[Oudeis he/him]

Thank you for the first part, reviving my theory!

 

Also, nothing about your second part disagrees with me, it's an ancillary point. If "arcanum" is, in your own words, a perfect way to describe what we're talking about, I can only assume that you agree with me that we should use that word.

[Edgedancer he/him]

I have to admid that I never though about that possibility. On the one hand Preservation eradicating Ruin does seem to fit with the theme of conflict going on between the two. On the other humans on Scadrial have Investure from both Ruin and Preservation, meaning the two aren´t mutally exclusive. Anyway, on to the theorizing.

 

Vin tecnically isn´t a Hemalurgist but someone Hemalurgy is being used on the distinction is important, because different from other magic systems Hemalurgy works more or less by itself once the spike is in its victim. So one can´t simply have taken Hemalurgy away from them afterall they don´t have the skill in the first place.

 

What´s more important for this theory is what about Hemalurgy makes the victim suspectable to being controled and here my thought will become purely speculative as well. Either there´s somekind of coding inside the spike, which Lerasium might overwrite by instinct, or the insertion of foreign S-DNA creates a crak, making it easier for mind controling effect to enter. Lerasium might also be able to fix said crack but that seems to complex for it going on auto control, especially given that such a crack wouldn´t necessarily be of Ruin, which given how little we know about the make-up of the S-DNA isn´t saying much, so I won´t even touch what problems fusing her S-DNA with the one in the spike might have caused.

 

Naturally, I don´t know which is the case, everyone that knows better is free to explain what´s actually going in. However, the fact that Allomancers can also influence hemalurgic creations and cracks in the soul making it easier for Investure to enter is an actual thing leads me to belive that the second one is true. 

[Oudeis he/him]

Vin tecnically isn´t a Hemalurgist but someone Hemalurgy is being used on the distinction is important, because different from other magic systems Hemalurgy works more or less by itself once the spike is in its victim. So one can´t simply have taken Hemalurgy away from them afterall they don´t have the skill in the first place.

 

Hrm, you're assuming one model of hemalurgy. There's a thread somewhere where we discuss this, and it was inconclusive. We truthfully don't really know how hemalurgy works. It might be the way you describe, but that leave several big questions unanswered. We know that hemalurgic spikes lose their charge when outside of a body between theft and hosting. Yet, Vin's earring is outside of her body for years, and doesn't seem to lose any charge whatsoever. Why not?

 

I will grant that my hemalurgic model is speculative, but so is yours. I humbly submit that while mine is a little more speculative, it has the benefit of containing no contradictions, while yours does.

 

As to your second point, that wasn't how I was suggesting lerasium works. You seem to think that it's like an engineer, looking at a structure, assessing it, and only working on the parts that need work. I suspect that it is far simpler and far more powerful than that. I think it just up and replaces the entire thing, not caring what was there before.

 

Imagine that your spiritweb is a dam. Lerasium is going to add a feature (let's say hydroelectric turbines). By your model, the engineer will do the minimum of work, looking at the dam as is and designing a way to add turbines. In this model, she would have to inspect the entire dam and choose to fix each specific crack individually in order to strip your spiritweb of hemalurgy.

 

I don't think that's what happens. I think the godmetal doesn't worry about niceties like that. I think she just rips out the entire existing dam, and replaces the whole thing with a brand new one based on her template. She's not trying to find individual cracks and fix them, but the cracks were in the old dam. She's gotten rid of them by the simple experience of replacing the entire dam.

[Edgedancer he/him]

If Vin´s Hemalurgic charge was somehow different from normal and inherent to her why would taking out the earring make any difference? (Yes, I realize I´m asking a question that you probably don´t know the answer to and am just thinking out loud.)

 

On Lerasium we only really have guess work but I personally don´t think that it could replace the S-DNA for two reasons in particular. First, from how I understand it, the S-DNA is the spiritual representation of a person and the spiritual is a realm of truths, so replacing it would either completly alter who Vin is on a spiritual level (including the part where she is Preservation´s champion) and not just make her the same person with stronger Allomancy or require a limited amount of Investure to lie to reality itself.

The second reason being that Lerasium is pure Preservation and as such should be incapable to replicate the part that contains Ruin and the S-DNA would contain Ruin given that the S-DNA is what makes Atium magical and not just a normal metal.

 

Viper

So what's at the core of an atom of Atium? Ate-teum? Also how do you pronounce it? At-teum?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And the matter is just normal matter, but it's wrapped in the spiritual. The Spiritual DNA [or something] is what makes it magical.

Source

[Oudeis he/him]

1. I'm not saying that Vin's hemalurgic reaction is atypical. I'm saying that there are inconsistencies in the commonly-accepted model, which would indicate that the model is, at best, flawed. I'm proposing a second model which is somewhat speculative (though, frankly, no more speculative than the basic model is assumptive) but doesn't have the same flaws. By this logic, ALL hemalurgic reaction conforms to my model.

 

2. I'm not sure why you think the spiritual realm is the land of Truth? As to what Preservation can do, recall that, per Harmony, Ruin was capable of building something if it let him destroy better.

 

I was being inexact before. I don't think lerasium overwrites literally the entirety of your spiritweb, only the section that deals with Investiture. I admit this is speculative. The fact that we have suggestions that a lerasium/pewter alloy would remove a Seeker's bronze and replace it with pewter is suggestive that it doesn't add, it overwrites.

[Edgedancer he/him]

1. I'm not saying that Vin's hemalurgic reaction is atypical. I'm saying that there are inconsistencies in the commonly-accepted model, which would indicate that the model is, at best, flawed. I'm proposing a second model which is somewhat speculative (though, frankly, no more speculative than the basic model is assumptive) but doesn't have the same flaws. By this logic, ALL hemalurgic reaction conforms to my model.

 

2. I'm not sure why you think the spiritual realm is the land of Truth? As to what Preservation can do, recall that, per Harmony, Ruin was capable of building something if it let him destroy better.

 

I was being inexact before. I don't think lerasium overwrites literally the entirety of your spiritweb, only the section that deals with Investiture. I admit this is speculative. The fact that we have suggestions that a lerasium/pewter alloy would remove a Seeker's bronze and replace it with pewter is suggestive that it doesn't add, it overwrites.

1) Okay, it might help if I knew what your model is, care to give me a link?

 

2) Good question, I really can´t remember. The only thing I can find in a hurry is this

 

Q: Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

A:  Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Q: And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

A:  Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so <sounds hesitant> "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

Q: So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

A:  You are... [LONG pause] You are, um, on the right track.  Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of diety, right?  And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the diety Endowment, correct?  And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is yes, kind of true, yes.

From the complied word of Brandon (X2) thread and this

 

The Spiritual Realm contains an object’s soul— its essence— as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it.

from tES day 12.

Which admittetly aren´t exactly the same.

 

You´re right, though, in that Lerasium seems to at the very least rewrite the portion concerning allomantic capabilities.

[Oudeis he/him]

Oh goodness, terribly sorry. I posted something intending to provide a link, but didn't have the time, and by the next time, I remembered that I'd intended to, and forgot that I never had.

 

Please accept this box of stakes.

 

(Sigh, a joke only an MST3K fan would get...)

[Edgedancer he/him]

Oh goodness, terribly sorry. I posted something intending to provide a link, but didn't have the time, and by the next time, I remembered that I'd intended to, and forgot that I never had.

 

Please accept this box of stakes.

 

(Sigh, a joke only an MST3K fan would get...)

That does make sense. How high would you put the likelihood of whatever Lerasium does returning the spike to phase two and causing it to simply rebond with Vin?

[Mailliw73 he/him]

We have WoB that Lerasium's primary purpose is not to grant Allomancy and that it would do something completely different if a Mistborn burned it. Because of that, I don't think it would enhance Vin's Allomancy, though, i don't know what it would do, but I imagine it'd do something different.

[Oudeis he/him]

Do you have that exact WoB? The one I'm recalling says that the default use of lerasium is to make someone a powerful mistborn, but that one could deliberately use it to rewrite one's own spiritweb in other ways.

 

Regardless, even if that's not what it does, The Crew doesn't have access to WoB, and given their incredibly limited knowledge they might suspect that it could make Vin more powerful. They also could have chosen to do any number of other things with it; I'll grant you it's entirely speculative.

[gjustice99 she/her]

Thank you for the first part, reviving my theory!

 

Also, nothing about your second part disagrees with me, it's an ancillary point. If "arcanum" is, in your own words, a perfect way to describe what we're talking about, I can only assume that you agree with me that we should use that word.

 I think if you are trying to find the word for cosmere magic the word is investure. But I think your theory is completely legit.

[Oudeis he/him]

Investiture is the energy itself, like the word electricity. If I'm trying to talk specifically about my computer, I can't just call it "an electricity thing" because that might mean lightning strikes or rubbing my socks on a carpet. So we came up with the word "electronics" to narrow it down.

 

Just talking about Investiture can mean a lot more. When i want to narrow it down to a specific field of application powered by Investiture, the word, per the back of every cosmere novel, is Arcanum.