Planets investiture consumption.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

Does the planet have a part in determining how much Investiture is consumed by its magic system?

Because Roshar's system(s) consumes what seems like immense quantities.

The only other one really comparing is Elantris. The cilty. But that is powered by the broken remains of two compatible(ish) Shards. And Elantris is a magnifier. OK there is also Nalthis's system but when they get powerful they are either blessed by a Shard or have the souls of a thousand human souls(ish). Either way it is not a weak power supply.

 

If this makes no sense, I understand. Ask me and I shall try my hardest to explain.

[kaellok]

Hmm, I think that consumption is the wrong word.  It implies that the Investiture would be transformed to a different state / gone afterwards.  This is nitpicky and pedantic and can freely be ignored by everyone, as it doesn't matter towards the point.

 

Scadrial has been described as a low-magic system.  Roshar is a high-magic system.  This means that the quantities of available power in Roshar is going to be high; and, as we've seen, are actually extreme.  It seems safe to assume that the Shards are relatively equal in the amount of sheer energy/power potential they have.  That means that there shouldn't be the massive disparity between Roshar and Scadrial, even though it's a 3-shard (max...possibly only 2) versus 2-shard world.  And there's clearly far more than twice the amount of energy/power on Roshar than Scadrial.  My assumption is that this is because Ruin and Preservation actually spent a crapload (now an official unit of measure) of Investiture to create sentient life, whereas the life on Roshar occurred naturally, due to Adonalsium's visit, or immigration from other planets--or possibly from Investiture from one or more of the Shards. 

 

The interesting things about planets are two WoB.  I would quote them, but I have not yet defenestrated my laptop despite numerous threats, and so it continues to have this thing where it won't let me (on these forums only.  Weird, I know.  Likely an update, or lack thereof.)  One is that the planets themselves help to determine the shape that the magic system takes.  The other is that astronomers would say that Roshar is not a planet that could support life on its own.

 

Per WoB, the question that is perhaps the most RAFO is: "Has Hoid been to Braize?"

 

To answer the question I think you are answering:  Yes, the planet helps to determine whether a magic system is high- or low-energy.  Part of this is determined by how much energy is available to be pumped into the system, since creating sentient life can be such a permanent drain.  Also, Adonalsium was Shattered in the Greater Roshar System, so there's far greater amounts of Investiture available than one would normally find that is naturally sustaining the life and doing other wonky things.

[Moogle]

Roshar, Sel, and Scadrial don't actually have that much of a difference in the "free" energy available. The mists basically covered the entire planet (well, half of the planet) every night on Scadrial. The difference here is how easy it is to capture the energy. Highstorms infuse gems on Roshar, and Surgebinders can directly take this Stormlight in... but the mists won't infuse metals on Scadrial without some as-yet unknown means of handling it, and only Vin was capable of taking them in. I suspect Preservation himself limited this, since Harmony apparently is allowing people to draw on the mists more freely. (By WoB, the presence of the mists will help Allomancy. Hmm...)

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

Hmm.. Perhaps a better question would be, if Odium, Honor and Cultivation were on any other planet would their systems use such huge amounts of investiture.

 

I'm wanting to know what makes Roshar so special. Is it the planet or....?

 

 

Roshar, Sel, and Scadrial don't actually have that much of a difference in the "free" energy available. The mists basically covered the entire planet (well, half of the planet) every night on Scadrial.

 

Exactly. So why is it that the magic systems have such a disparity in Investiture consumed? ( consumed is I believe the correct word because I don't care about the available Investiture only Investiture used by the magic users ( we need a word for magic users. ).

[Blaze1616]

So why is it that the magic systems have such a disparity in Investiture consumed? ( consumed is I believe the correct word because I don't care about the available Investiture only Investiture used by the magic users ( we need a word for magic users. ).

 

You must also remember that there is no known conversion between magic systems as of yet. 1 gram of metal has no conversion into stormlight. Does 1 gram of bronze = 1 diamond broam of stormlight? What about the fact that the gems leak Stormlight naturally? How do we account for different metals burning at different rates? Those questions are merely a small fraction of the total amount of questions regarding the power levels of Allomancy and Surging, and does not include Awakening, AonDor, Forging, or Feruchemy.

 

The only real comparison that can be made is between Breath and Stormlight, currently. A WoB has stated that Vasher is residing on Roshar because "something" is more abundant. Considering Vasher requires Breath to live, moving to Roshar gives him access to a different, albeit similar, investiture that does not require him to steal the "souls" of people. I feel this "something," then, is the investiture of Stormlight. It is clear, to me anyways, that Vasher is using Stormlight to keep himself alive. So how much stormlight does Vasher need to hold to equate the one Breath consumed every 8 days? I personally believe that it is going to be greater than 1 "unit" of stormlight, which would imply that Stormlight is "weaker" than Breath, but then Stormlight is more abundant, as Brandon said, which causes the systems to be more similar. In addition, Breath can be re-absorbed after use in most cases, but Stormlight cannot.

 

So really there are no clean conversions right now. I would, therefore, say that it cannot be said that one magic system "consumes" more investiture than another.

[Moogle]

So how much stormlight does Vasher need to hold to equate the one Breath consumed every 8 days? I personally believe that it is going to be greater than 1 "unit" of stormlight, which would imply that Stormlight is "weaker" than Breath, but then Stormlight is more abundant, as Brandon said, which causes the systems to be more similar. In addition, Breath can be re-absorbed after use in most cases, but Stormlight cannot.

 

So really there are no clean conversions right now. I would, therefore, say that it cannot be said that one magic system "consumes" more investiture than another.

 

I'm not sure I understand your point on Vasher. To clarify, are you saying that you feel Vasher has to consume lots and lots of Stormlight (like, a gemheart's worth?) every week?

 

As to clean conversions, we do have a WoB that there is a ratio:

Q:  How much stormlight equals one breath? Do you have an actual ratio?

A:  I have a ratio. It's not on me.

Q:  Okay, that's a Peter question again.

A:  Yeah, well, I may not answer it even then.

(source)

 

It may be difficult to measure, but it's possible and the question of whether one system consumes more Investiture definitely makes sense. (As a rough estimation, I imagine we could measure how glowy people are. Allomancers don't glow at all, so they are clearly low-Investiture. Surgebinders are... well... radiant, so they use lots.)

 

As an idea on measuring: make synthetic gemstones, cut them into perfect cubes of the exact same dimensions, and expose them to a highstorm. At the exact moment the highstorm recharges them (this is a discrete moment in time), have a Surgebinder suck in the Light and Lash a boulder with all the Stormlight, and measure how far up it goes. Next, give a Surgebinder Breath until the point where they can Awaken metal (a discrete point) and no more. (Use partial Breaths if possible; Vasher apparently can do that.) Have them use all that Breath to Lash a boulder up. Repeat until the boulder is lifted to the exact same height for both, and then you have a good reference point.

 

Of course, objects imbued with Stormlight like that leak it, and I'm not sure if objects imbued that way with Breath leak it in a similar manner. Powering systems with other Investiture is bound to have a few odd side-effects. Still, in principle I don't think it would be too hard to get decent reference points.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis]

At the exact moment the highstorm recharges them (this is a discrete moment in time)

Is this true? Szeth and Kaladin fly around in the highstorm, constantly replenishing, I thought, traveling around in various directions, certainly not deliberately staying at the exact right spot to constantly Infuse.

[Moogle]

Is this true? Szeth and Kaladin fly around in the highstorm, constantly replenishing, I thought, traveling around in various directions, certainly not deliberately staying at the exact right spot to constantly Infuse.

 

That's what I got from this section in WoK:

In that darkness, an enormous face appeared just in front of his. A face of blackness, yet faintly traced in the dark. It was wide, the breadth of a massive thunderhead, and extended far to either side, yet it was somehow still visible to Kaladin. Inhuman. Smiling.

Kaladin felt a deep chill—a rolling prickle of ice—scurry down his spine and through his entire body. The sphere suddenly burst to life in his hand, flaring with a sapphire glow. It illuminated the stone roof beneath him, making his fist blaze with blue fire. His shirt was in tatters, his skin lacerated. He looked down at himself, shocked, then looked up at the face. It was gone. There was only the darkness.

I could be wrong, and Kaladin might have been in a different Realm temporarily, and didn't see the sphere slowly coming to life.

[Kurkistan]

@Moogle

 

More likely, I think, is that the sphere begins to infuse at that moment, but continues to do so for some period of time. The "suddenly coming to life" could quite easily be explained within this understadning, I think, by several mechanisms. To throw some out: The sphere is really quite tiny/the infusion rate is high, so it fills up very very quickly; there is indeed some abnormally-large burst at the first moment of infusion to insta-fill everything, but then the stream settles down; etc.

-EDIT: The "other realm" option looks good too, actually...

 

Continuous infusion seems necessary, though, if we're to explain why one small sphere could keep Kaladin alive through all of that, and also the implication (or is it even stated outright?) in WoR that Szeth and Kaladin are re-infusing rather freely as they fly about.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Redbird]

In WoK Kaladin is stationary. while in WoR Kaladin and Szeth are in motion, and moving with the stormwall.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

In regards to when the gems are recharged. I've always thought of the Highstorm as being powered by wave of something* that gives off Stormlight. With as it is passing by powering anything in this area that can take in Stormlight. With Spheres acting like a leaky bucket. Meaning they only fill when there is 'room'. This could explain how Kaladin was able to survive in the Highstorm with such a little Sphere. It could also explain why Kaladin and Szeth were able to freely use Stormlight in the middle of a Highstorm. No idea how big that area is but I would think that the Physical effect of the Highstorm would be bigger than the 'energy' part.

 

* No idea what this could be, but it could possibly be a compression of the Three Realms. 

[Blaze1616]

I'm not sure I understand your point on Vasher. To clarify, are you saying that you feel Vasher has to consume lots and lots of Stormlight (like, a gemheart's worth?) every week?

I was not trying to give a concrete amount, but was merely stating that I think a single unit of Stormlight is less raw investiture than one Breath, and therefore Vasher would need to consume more than one unit of Stormlight each week. 

 

It may be difficult to measure, but it's possible and the question of whether one system consumes more Investiture definitely makes sense. (As a rough estimation, I imagine we could measure how glowy people are. Allomancers don't glow at all, so they are clearly low-Investiture. Surgebinders are... well... radiant, so they use lots.)

 

As an idea on measuring: make synthetic gemstones, cut them into perfect cubes of the exact same dimensions, and expose them to a highstorm. At the exact moment the highstorm recharges them (this is a discrete moment in time), have a Surgebinder suck in the Light and Lash a boulder with all the Stormlight, and measure how far up it goes. Next, give a Surgebinder Breath until the point where they can Awaken metal (a discrete point) and no more. (Use partial Breaths if possible; Vasher apparently can do that.) Have them use all that Breath to Lash a boulder up. Repeat until the boulder is lifted to the exact same height for both, and then you have a good reference point.

 

Of course, objects imbued with Stormlight like that leak it, and I'm not sure if objects imbued that way with Breath leak it in a similar manner. Powering systems with other Investiture is bound to have a few odd side-effects. Still, in principle I don't think it would be too hard to get decent reference points.

I agree that it has to be measurable, as your WoB points out, but it is not like we can just run the experiment you propose. I also think that the "jury-rigging" Brandon mentions when discussing crossing the magic systems would make the experiment you propose much harder to perform. The easier method, in my opinion, would be to instead create a Lifeless using Stormlight. We know that the creation of a Lifeless uses exactly 1 Breath, so for a "clean" conversion between the two systems that should be the easiest experiment. That, though, brings the question of whether or not the Stormlight would then dissipate and the Lifeless would again die. Again, though, none of this matters because, unfortunately, we are not in the Cosmere (and if we were, our chances of being a worldhopper are slim).

 

On the bright side, we know Brandon has a conversion, so he must have thought about the experiment that the characters would need to perform to achieve that ratio.

[Oudeis]

What about the cost of transference? If Stormlight is used to Awaken a Lifeless, will there be an attrition on the amount of Stormlight it needs? i.e. you start with 12 units of Stormlight, but by the time you've changed it into a form that can be used to Awaken, you've spent 2 units, so now you only have 10 units of Stormlight to use. If that's what it takes to Awaken a Lifeless, your experiment would lead us to conclude that 1 Breath is 12 units of Stormlight, since we have no way to measure how much is lost in transference, when the true answer is closer to 10.

[Blaze1616]

What about the cost of transference? If Stormlight is used to Awaken a Lifeless, will there be an attrition on the amount of Stormlight it needs? i.e. you start with 12 units of Stormlight, but by the time you've changed it into a form that can be used to Awaken, you've spent 2 units, so now you only have 10 units of Stormlight to use. If that's what it takes to Awaken a Lifeless, your experiment would lead us to conclude that 1 Breath is 12 units of Stormlight, since we have no way to measure how much is lost in transference, when the true answer is closer to 10.

 

Ah, but Stormlight makes you glow. there just happens to be a unit for measuring glow, or luminescence, known as the Lumen in the SI system. By measuring the intensity of the glow, as well as the time the glow is sustained, we could, theoretically, create a standard unit of Stormlight. Then, once this is complete, we perform the experiment I described above. As you have said, Stormlight could be lost through other means, but this could, potentially, be noticeable in the luminescence loss. This would then mean we would have the Awakener load up on Stormlight, much more than we know would be required, and simply test how much is lost through the act of Awakening the Lifeless.

 

If you meant, however, that the 2 units lost in your example occur after having left the Awakener, but before bringing the Lifeless to...uh...life, that would be much harder to keep track of. I'm not even sure if it would be possible, and so the conversion might go down as 12 units rather than the actual 10. However, those 2 units are still mandatory for any future conversions, and so the conversion of 1:12 would still hold true. It is possible, though, that the number of units lost in conversion is a function of the Breaths used, though, and so we would need to test on objects other than creating a Lifeless that would require more than 1 Breath. 

 

Man, research is awesome! I really wish we could do these experiments.

[Oudeis]

Even if you were right, 1:12 would still only work in one direction. If you tried using Breath to mimic the effect of Stormlight, you could not simply invert the ration to 12:1. It could be as low as 8:1, or even lower.

 

And your lumen idea is based on some assumptions. Do we know that it's a direct proportion to how much stormlight you're losing? Is there a maximum luminosity, even when you hold/lose more stormlight? Without already having a direct way to measure the stormlight itself, we can't be certain that luminosity is an accurate way to measure stormlight.

[Kurkistan]

Well this is interesting. Here I've been walking around with the unspoken assumption that the "glowiness" of surgebinders was entirely a function of them losing stormlight: so "they" don't glow, just the Light that they're losing.

 

It seems that (perhaps for good reason, I just never gave it another thought) others have different opinions.

[Blaze1616]

Well this is interesting. Here I've been walking around with the unspoken assumption that the "glowiness" of surgebinders was entirely a function of them losing stormlight: so "they" don't glow, just the Light that they're losing.

 

It seems that (perhaps for good reason, I just never gave it another thought) others have different opinions.

 

I agree with you, the glow is a function of Stormlight lost. From Outis' reply, I think s/he does too. Isn't that stated in the books? I see why my wording would make you think I disagreed though...hah...

 

Even if you were right, 1:12 would still only work in one direction. If you tried using Breath to mimic the effect of Stormlight, you could not simply invert the ration to 12:1. It could be as low as 8:1, or even lower.

 

And your lumen idea is based on some assumptions. Do we know that it's a direct proportion to how much stormlight you're losing? Is there a maximum luminosity, even when you hold/lose more stormlight? Without already having a direct way to measure the stormlight itself, we can't be certain that luminosity is an accurate way to measure stormlight.

 

We have no knowledge on any conversions, so it is possible that the 1:12 ratio would hold in both directions. It is also possible it would not, as you have suggested. Given Brandon has stated that there is a conversion, which he knows, it implies the ratio is true in both directions. As we've mentioned, though, there might be some loss when fueling a magic system with another's investiture,and that loss might not be constant in both directions (using your previous example, the reverse ratio could be 10:1, or even 14:1 or higher). 

 

As for using lumens, I do think it would work. We know from WoR (and WoK I think) that Kaladin is able to absorb a small amount of Stormlight and his glowing is minimal (small enough to not be noticed in daylight unless someone is looking for it). We also know that when he absorbs more than said "small" amount, his glow is brighter. This would mean that the glow is proportional to Stormlight absorbed. Yes, the ratio might not be 1:1, but perhaps the glow increases 1 lumen for every 5.6 units of Stormlight. Perhaps it is that the lumen measurement is a function of Stormlight instead of a ratio. Regardless, it would be measurable after some experimentation.

 

Now, as for your argument of there being a maxed glow brightness, I agree with you simply because the Kaladin/Szeth battle at the end of WoR had no mention of a blinding glow (if memory serves) when they held a tremendous amount of Stormlight. At this point, time would become a factor. As the Stormlight drains, it will eventually reach that "capped" point and the glow will diminish. Once the lumen:stormlight ratio or function is known, the time it takes for a set amount of Stormlight to drain can be calculated. This, in combination with the time it takes for the luminescence of an individual to start decreasing after absorbing a tremendous amount of Stormlight, would allow a calculation of how much Stormlight was originally stored.

 

Your next argument would then probably be that the Stormlight drains at different rates depending on how much the individual is holding (I'm pretty sure this is mentioned in WoK or WoR). This, though, is still measurable. It would require a relatively large store of gems of equal value and size (emerald broams, for example). A set amount of time after a stormwall hits (anywhere from 5 minutes to 5 hours, so long as it is constant between experiments), have an individual absorb all the Stormlight from the gems, and record how long it takes for all of the glow to dissipate. Repeat this for different amounts of gems (and therefore Stormlight), and eventually a function will be capable of being formulated.

 

In the end, it should all still be possible, and except for the lumen portions the experiments can be performed at Roshar's current technology level. The results might be a bit rough, but you can't really expect more until technology advances (stopwatches, for example). I'm sure that, eventually, there will be a means within the Cosmere to directly measure Investiture, but until then I don't see how an exact, definitive answer can be achieved.

[Oudeis]

I disagree with you on several points, and let's see if I can calculate them all...

 

Even if gems were capable of being weighed to within an acceptable variance of each other, the skill which which each is cut cannot possibly be uniform enough for the experiments to be meaningful. Cloudiness, clarity, other gemstone terms like "fire", each are beyond human ability to eliminate as a factor, and not possible to be measured to required degrees of rigor with the technology of Roshar.

 

Second, I actually wasn't going to mention the different speeds at which stormlight flows, because as you mention, if we ever do prove a direct correlation then the change in luminosity will simply be a matched parabolic curve. I will, however, restate the point which you don't address, which is that we have no idea if luminosity is a direct correlate of stormlight held. We can assume, but we don't know. Yes, we know that a little stormlight glows a little and a lot of stormlight glows a lot. We also know luminosity changes whether or not you breath (which, to address Kurk above, is when they tell us that you glow more the faster you lose stormlight). Until we have a way to directly measure stormlight itself, there won't be a way to know for sure that luminosity is directly affected by amount of stormlight, and by nothing else.

 

Think of heating water. Once you bring water up to 100 degrees celsius, you then have to apply an amount of additional energy during which the temperature won't increase while it converts to 100 degree celcius steam. In that example there's an obvious physical change you can see with the naked eye... but that doesn't mean there isn't some change on the spiritual/cognitive level we simply cannot see. If we were to take the amount of joules you have to apply to water to increase it from 70C to 130C, we'd be able to extrapolate a graph, but that graph would be wrong.

 

Also, humans are terrible controlled circumstances. Stormlight will get used up to heal you; how can you tell how "healed" someone is before they inhale it? Did he cut himself shaving this morning? Does she have blisters on her feet that would heal over real quick? This guy didn't eat much today; will the stormlight "heal" his hunger?

 

And there are other effects. Stormlights compels you to action. Does resisting this impulse hold stormlight in more? Less? Does it not affect it at all? What about your heartrate?

 

There are simply way, way too many variables. There's no way Rosharan level technology could account for them all, and that's even assuming, as we'd have to, that luminosity is, in fact, a direct correlate.

 

Also, re: conversions... so you're agreeing with me? We both agree that there IS a conversion, and you agree with me that the conversion may be endoinvestive, exoinvestive, or purely neutral (or use up a more mundane fuel). So, until we have a way to calculate how much Investiture gets used up (or even added) as you convert, there's no way to know what the ratio would be one way, even if we can determine the ratio the other way.

[Blaze1616]

I disagree with you on several points, and let's see if I can calculate them all...

 

Before my full response I want to say a few things real quick. First, I am enjoying this conversation quite a lot, and thank you for participating and not simply dismissing it. Second, when having discussions of this and similar natures in the flesh, some people tend to think I am being rude, or at least they perceive my responses as such. I would like to tell you that I in no way intend to be rude, nor to insult you. As this is a text based medium we are conversing through, it would be easy to give an angry or offensive voice to the words one is reading, and I do not want you to think that such a voice is my intention.   

 

Even if gems were capable of being weighed to within an acceptable variance of each other, the skill which which each is cut cannot possibly be uniform enough for the experiments to be meaningful. Cloudiness, clarity, other gemstone terms like "fire", each are beyond human ability to eliminate as a factor, and not possible to be measured to required degrees of rigor with the technology of Roshar.

This should be simple enough to remove variability. The currency on Roshar is based on gem type, size, and glow. The more rare the gem, the more valuable. The larger the gem, the more valuable. The more glow to a gem, the more valuable (as dun gems are worth less than glowing ones). The point about the glow does not matter so much, but is still a point to remember. Given we know that the better a gem is cut, the more Stormlight it can hold, I feel it is relatively safe to assume that all currency of the same value is cut within an acceptable range (otherwise there would be no currency standards). Two diamond marks have the same value. Given the importance the Rosahran economic system has put on size and glow, it should be a safe assumption that the two diamond marks mentioned will be similarly sized, and similarly cut.

 

Even if they are not, though, the variables you discuss are still controllable, so long as the batch of gems used during the experiments are constant from experiment to experiment. This way, so long as the experiment occurs at the same time relative to the stormwall passing, the same amount of Stormlight is being absorbed.

 

Second, I actually wasn't going to mention the different speeds at which stormlight flows, because as you mention, if we ever do prove a direct correlation then the change in luminosity will simply be a matched parabolic curve. I will, however, restate the point which you don't address, which is that we have no idea if luminosity is a direct correlate of stormlight held. We can assume, but we don't know. Yes, we know that a little stormlight glows a little and a lot of stormlight glows a lot. We also know luminosity changes whether or not you breath (which, to address Kurk above, is when they tell us that you glow more the faster you lose stormlight). Until we have a way to directly measure stormlight itself, there won't be a way to know for sure that luminosity is directly affected by amount of stormlight, and by nothing else.

 

Think of heating water. Once you bring water up to 100 degrees celsius, you then have to apply an amount of additional energy during which the temperature won't increase while it converts to 100 degree celcius steam. In that example there's an obvious physical change you can see with the naked eye... but that doesn't mean there isn't some change on the spiritual/cognitive level we simply cannot see. If we were to take the amount of joules you have to apply to water to increase it from 70C to 130C, we'd be able to extrapolate a graph, but that graph would be wrong.

 

I thought I understood your argument, but your analogy threw me off. As I understand the first paragraph here, you are saying that we cannot know for certain that the glow is due to Stormlight. I argue that we do know. Rosharans do not naturally glow. They only glow once they absorb Stormlight and it begins to escape their bodies. It is the Stormlight which actually glows, which is why gems glow, and why two surfaces lashed together glow (I'm pretty sure they do anyways, but I lack my books to provide you a quote proving/disproving so). Moreover, even if the Stormlight was not the cause, the glow is a direct effect of the individual absorbing Stormlight, and as such luminescence would be a reliable means of measure.

 

As for your analogy to water, I'm not sure why you think the graph would be wrong. A graph of Temperature Vs. Energy Input would initially have a slope as the temperature increases from 70C to 100C, then be a horizontal line as the energy input is used in the phase change. It would then attain a slope again as the water is fully converted to steam. That is the graph that would be generated, and it is correct. More to the point, however, I'm not sure how this relates to the Stormlight discussion. Just because a spiritual/cognitive change might occur, that does not mean we cannot use luminescence as a means of measurement. 

 

For example, let us say that Stormlight attracts Seons. Seons are splinters, like Spren, whose physical form is an AonDor character and a bright glow. When an individual absorbs Stormlight, a Seon is attracted and resides in their body, and this Seon is the cause of the glow. The more Stormlight absorbed, the more Seons are attracted, the brighter the glow. In this scenario, when the Stormlight runs out, the Seon leaves, and the glow is gone. The glow is still a viable unit of measure because absorbing the Stormlight still inevitably caused the glow, even though the Stormlight was not the direct cause.

 

Perhaps I have misunderstood you?

 

Also, humans are terrible controlled circumstances. Stormlight will get used up to heal you; how can you tell how "healed" someone is before they inhale it? Did he cut himself shaving this morning? Does she have blisters on her feet that would heal over real quick? This guy didn't eat much today; will the stormlight "heal" his hunger?

These are simple things to control though. Obviously a volunteer would be used (or you could force this upon someone ). You place the individual in solitary confinement with just the basic needs (bed, toilet, etc). You implement a feeding regimen. You control the individual's life, thereby controlling the experiment. In addition, if something were  to happen right before the experiment (say a stubbed toe), you simply have them absorb Stormlight from a source other than the controlled source, quickly heal, disperse the Stormlight (through breathing or Surging), and commence with the experiment.

 

And there are other effects. Stormlights compels you to action. Does resisting this impulse hold stormlight in more? Less? Does it not affect it at all? What about your heartrate?

 

There are simply way, way too many variables. There's no way Rosharan level technology could account for them all, and that's even assuming, as we'd have to, that luminosity is, in fact, a direct correlate.

 

I'm not sure what your thoughts are on how experimentation occurs. Proper experimentation alters a few variables, though only one is preferred, to see the effect that variable(s) has/have on the results. All the variables that you have mentioned in your post are needed to be taken into account, for sure, but I do not see why you believe the mere existence of them means that no useful results can be generated. Yes it would take time, yes it would be tedious, but yes it can be done in a controlled environment. 

 

Even with modern Earth technology, the level of precision you seem to desire is impossible. Science is almost never exact. A conversion between two systems, or even a measuring system within one magic system, is something useful to have. Sure, your results might be rough, but if they are repeatable the question becomes, is rough not enough? For example, the conversion between grams and pounds is 1 gram = 0.00220462... but we roughly estimate this to 1:0.0022. Pi is a number with infinite digits, but we roughly estimate it as 3.14. The ability to compare Stormlight amounts between gems, with accuracy, would be immensely helpful, regardless of whether we are exact or not.

 

Also, re: conversions... so you're agreeing with me? We both agree that there IS a conversion, and you agree with me that the conversion may be endoinvestive, exoinvestive, or purely neutral (or use up a more mundane fuel). So, until we have a way to calculate how much Investiture gets used up (or even added) as you convert, there's no way to know what the ratio would be one way, even if we can determine the ratio the other way.

Yes, I agree. I merely posited that because Brandon has a conversion, it is constant in both directions.

[Oudeis]

I thought I understood your argument, but your analogy threw me off. As I understand the first paragraph here, you are saying that we cannot know for certain that the glow is due to Stormlight. I argue that we do know.

 

Real quick, kind of important. This isn't even close to what I'm saying. Obviously the glow is Stormlight. I never said, and I'd never say, that it wasn't. What I'm saying is, you think we can assume a direct ratio, and I'm saying that's not an assumption with much basis. It's the simplest possible explanation, just like it's the simplest explanation to someone who understands state-change as well as we understand stormlight that applying contant energy to a pot of water will result in a steady increase in temperature. In that case, it proves to be wrong. I'm saying we don't know enough to know if maybe there are bumps on the road, other factors we don't know about. Stormlight, if anything does, can be affected by circumstances in the cognitive and spiritual realms, so two thirds of its reality are not only out of our control, but entirely unobservable.

 

As for your analogy to water, I'm not sure why you think the graph would be wrong. A graph of Temperature Vs. Energy Input would initially have a slope as the temperature increases from 70C to 100C, then be a horizontal line as the energy input is used in the phase change. It would then attain a slope again as the water is fully converted to steam. That is the graph that would be generated, and it is correct.

 

I disagree with several more things you say, but I'm only going to address the salient one.

 

Your contention is that we can accurately gauge stormlight, despite not being able to directly measure it, by the luminosity it provides.

 

In my analogy, you're assuming we can measure both temperature and joules, but we've discussed the fact that we can't measure joules. I didn't make this point as well as I could have.

 

With only the ability to measure heat, trying to determine how much energy something was outputting, you'd measure the temperature of the water, it would plateau... and you'd be stuck. You would have lost the ability to determine how much energy is being applied to the water, because the temperature is no longer changing. Once it moves again, can you assume the same ratio from before? Without a way to measure the joules directly, you will never have any perspective to get the first idea how many joules were required to make it through the temperature plateau.

 

These are simple things to control though. Obviously a volunteer would be used (or you could force this upon someone ). You place the individual in solitary confinement with just the basic needs (bed, toilet, etc). You implement a feeding regimen. You control the individual's life, thereby controlling the experiment. In addition, if something were  to happen right before the experiment (say a stubbed toe), you simply have them absorb Stormlight from a source other than the controlled source, quickly heal, disperse the Stormlight (through breathing or Surging), and commence with the experiment.

I still disagree with your assertion that control is this easy. People have moods, sleep patterns, many things which could affect the experiment, none of which even modern science can control. There's no way Rosharan technology could do it. And that's again assuming that you can even see all the factors. How have you ruled out climates in the spiritual or cognitive realms beyond your control? And remember the experiments from those ardents. Measuring spren changed them, fundamentally. Considering the link between spren and stormlight, it's not a leap to suggest that by the mere act of measuring stormlight might impose the most direct form of confirmation bias ever on the experiment.

 

Even with modern Earth technology, the level of precision you seem to desire is impossible. Science is almost never exact. A conversion between two systems, or even a measuring system within one magic system, is something useful to have.

I don't disagree, I just think the manner you suggest will be too inaccurate. At this point, it would be a ton of effort for, at best, a rough estimation. Why not just count it as a clearchip's worth, then? That'd be about as accurate as the results of your experiment, and are a ton easier to achieve. Have a radiant (or larkin) remove all the light from a bunch of spheres of various denominations and colors, and get a cut gemheart with a ton of charge. Have the radiant suck in light from the gemheart, and see how much a single clearchip can hold. Fill a few dozen clearchips, and then drain them all at once and see how many will fit inside a clearmark before you can't put any more stormlight in. It would be crude and the time factor would make it vague, but I still think it would be as accurate, if not more, than your experiment.

 

Yes, I agree. I merely posited that because Brandon has a conversion, it is constant in both directions.

 

I agree that the conversion of the energy itself would be constant in both directions. But until you do it in both directions, you can't know what the energy cost of the conversion itself is. If there's a cost, and you only ever turn stormlight into breath, your results would be skewed to making stormlight weaker. If the conversion actually somehow adds investiture, your results would be skewed the other way. I agree that the conversion is constant. Maybe it doesn't cost anything, or maybe it costs a fuel that isn't Investiture. If we knew for a fact that was true, then we could safely assume that converting just stormlight into breath was accurate enough. But we don't know that.

 

As for before, I enjoy talking with you. Your points are all logical and well-thought-out. I don't agree with you, and every so often you make an assumptive leap I'm not willing to follow, but I will always gladly debate anyone who relies on facts, reason, logic and science. You seem to have a tendency to misconstrue my arguments, but that is likely my fault for not expressing myself well.

 

Please let me know if I say or do anything that gives you the impression that I'm offended, or that I'm offending you, and I promise I will apologize for my mistake.

[Blaze1616]

I think you were right, and I was not quite fully understanding the points you were making. Of course, you are right, we cannot fully control all possible variables once the Spiritual and Cognitive realms are included. In my opinion, any knowledge that can be gained from the experiments we have been discussing would be beneficial. Perhaps you disagree, and if so we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
 

I don't disagree, I just think the manner you suggest will be too inaccurate. At this point, it would be a ton of effort for, at best, a rough estimation. Why not just count it as a clearchip's worth, then? That'd be about as accurate as the results of your experiment, and are a ton easier to achieve. Have a radiant (or larkin) remove all the light from a bunch of spheres of various denominations and colors, and get a cut gemheart with a ton of charge. Have the radiant suck in light from the gemheart, and see how much a single clearchip can hold. Fill a few dozen clearchips, and then drain them all at once and see how many will fit inside a clearmark before you can't put any more stormlight in. It would be crude and the time factor would make it vague, but I still think it would be as accurate, if not more, than your experiment.

Can you refill a gem with Stormlight? I don't remember this ever happening. If it is possible, then of course do it this way! I was under the assumption you could not.

[Shardcellist]

WOR

Shallan did so at the end of Words of Radiance, using Stormlight from lamps to power the fabrial Oathgate.