How did Shallan become radiant (Spoilers)

[Betrail]

I tried looking around and couldn't find anything on this, how did Shallan become a radiant, or at least start bonding pattern?

I was under the impression that one could not fully bond a spren unless they were "broken".They could start to attract one but couldn't finish the bond.

In the book she seems to have became a radiant after she killed her mother. But how could she summon pattern before breaking. And Shallan's mother couldn't have broke her because her becoming a radiant was the whole reason she attacked shallan in the first place.

The reason this bothers me is that shallan references that as what broke her. Is this what her next truth will be about or am i missing something?

[sanderfan she/her]

I'm not the most knowledgable on this topic, so sorry if I get some of this stuff wrong.

Maybe her killing her mother is what she thinks broke her, but maybe the thing that actually broke her was when she realized that her mother wanted to kill her. I imagine that could be traumatic enough for a bond to happen.

I never noticed this before, so I don't really know, but that's what I'm thinking.

[sun tzaro]

but maybe the thing that actually broke her was when she realized that her mother wanted to kill her.

 

Shallan's mother decided to try and kill Shallan after discovering Shallan's abilities.

 

I'll try and dig up a quote for this later today.

 

For the most part, Shallan remembers her mother fondly, I believe, so I don't think it was her relationship with her mother that "broke" her.

 

In case it wasn't clear, we don't know for certain what it was that broke Shallan, and she still does have two more "Truths" to speak - so perhaps we'll find out what happened.

Edited November 11, 2014 by sun tzaro

[maxal she/her]

Shallan used her Pattern Blade to kill her mother, which implies she was already well set on the path of Radianhood before. It is also assumed Shallan's mother wanted to kill her because she found out about Pattern.

 

I believe the most common theory is that Shallan's childhood was not as happy as she claims it was. There must have been many conflicts into her household, which may have helped a young girl to "crack".

[Moogle]

It would be odd to just spontaneously decide to murder your child (when you love them deeply), and even odder to then try to do it yourself. It speaks of a lack of an emotional connection.

 

Shallan's mother didn't just let her friend she invited over try to kill Shallan, she was there herself to do it. This seems to imply to me that Shallan's relationship with her mother was not all flowers and happiness.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal she/her]

It would be odd to just spontaneously decide to murder your child (when you love them deeply), and even odder to then try to do it yourself. It speaks of a lack of an emotional connection.

 

Shallan's mother didn't just let her friend she invited over try to kill Shallan, she was there herself to do it. This seems to imply to me that Shallan's relationship with her mother was not all flowers and happiness.

 

Unfortunately, some parents do murder their children    Over where I live, there is this doctor who brutally murdered his two children by knifing them into their hearts as he was depressed following his break-up with his ex-wife. There is also this mother who drown her three kids in their bath.... The older kid was 4: there were signs of struggle on her as she did not go down quietly Those kids were the grand-kids of one of my husband's work colleagues....

 

I don't know how it is possible as I would die a thousand deaths before I let anything happen to any of my kids. I would trust myself in front of a running train anytime if it meant saving one of them. I have absolutely no idea how a parent could lose itself to the point of wanting to harm it own children, but I have to admit it does happened in real life. It is therefore entirely possible Shallan's mother was one of those sick parents willing to harm their kids to prove their point.

[Unhinged he/him]

I believe that during Shallans last flashback when she remembered killing her mother her mother called Shallan "one of them" them presumably being radiants given this I suspect that her mother might have known more about events on Roshar than we first thought.

 

​One other thing that just occurred to me is when Mraize confronts Shallan at the end of WOR he says that "your family has a long history of involvement in these events" I wonder what a long history implies it would strike me as being more than the few years that Shallans father was involved with the ghostbloods. I wonder if her mother might have had something to do with all of this as well.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Unhinged

[cem he/him]

I tried looking around and couldn't find anything on this, how did Shallan become a radiant, or at least start bonding pattern?

I was under the impression that one could not fully bond a spren unless they were "broken".They could start to attract one but couldn't finish the bond.

In the book she seems to have became a radiant after she killed her mother. But how could she summon pattern before breaking. And Shallan's mother couldn't have broke her because her becoming a radiant was the whole reason she attacked shallan in the first place.

The reason this bothers me is that shallan references that as what broke her. Is this what her next truth will be about or am i missing something?

This has been argued before, though we didn't get a clear answer as far as I know. Personally, I don't think the initiation of the bond requires "being broken," its advancement does. And it wasn't just Shallan either. Kaladin managed to use the "being-guided-by-the-wing" passive bonus of Windrunners' when he was fighting Jost, and Syl says she has been with him since childhood. That happens when Kaladin's twelve, long before anything that could have broken him, unless his seasonal affective disorder was enough by itself of course.

 

Unfortunately, some parents do murder their children    Over where I live, there is this doctor who brutally murdered his two children by knifing them into their hearts as he was depressed following his break-up with his ex-wife. There is also this mother who drown her three kids in their bath.... The older kid was 4: there were signs of struggle on her as she did not go down quietly Those kids were the grand-kids of one of my husband's work colleagues....

 

I don't know how it is possible as I would die a thousand deaths before I let anything happen to any of my kids. I would trust myself in front of a running train anytime if it meant saving one of them. I have absolutely no idea how a parent could lose itself to the point of wanting to harm it own children, but I have to admit it does happened in real life. It is therefore entirely possible Shallan's mother was one of those sick parents willing to harm their kids to prove their point.

Those are all probably result of mental illnesses though. Not sure how that compares to Shallan's mom. She tried to carry out premeditated murder against her child. She may have been a Skybreaker since she seems to share their beliefs, so she may have believed Nale's claims. Most parents don't have to consider their child will bring the end of the world. I think it makes it a bit more complicated if your choices are (from your POV); a) kill your child, face the Desolations again in which case your child is more likely than not to die anyway whether you win or lose. Then again, I'm not a parent.

[Fallen Rope he/him]

I noticed the same thing.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/14498-wor-spoilers-when-did-shallans-bond-start/

My guess is that before her mothers death her childhood was still bad, this will be her 5th truth.

[maxal she/her]

Those are all probably result of mental illnesses though. Not sure how that compares to Shallan's mom. She tried to carry out premeditated murder against her child. She may have been a Skybreaker since she seems to share their beliefs, so she may have believed Nale's claims. Most parents don't have to consider their child will bring the end of the world. I think it makes it a bit more complicated if your choices are (from your POV); a) kill your child, face the Desolations again in which case your child is more likely than not to die anyway whether you win or lose. Then again, I'm not a parent.

 

Who's to say Shallan's mother had no mental illness? Those murders I referred too were premeditated... It happens, in real life.

 

I am a parent and I can say I could never, ever even consider the possibility of harming one of my children. Even if they are supposed to grow into a mass massacre weapon, I would still not do it. They are kids. Their future is not set yet and these is nothing that would make me change my views on this. Now, you think my kids are dangerous? Bring it own. You'll have to pass through me to get to them.

 

Shallan's mother.... must have been a very abnormal person.

[Unhinged he/him]

Shallan's mother.... must have been a very abnormal person.

 

maybe, maybe not, I don't have kids so I can't speak for the parents here but remember Shallan's mother had five children, she might have been willing to kill one of them in order to give the other four a chance at a desolation free future. Still you would think that she could have tried to find another way to stop her daughter without resorting to violence, I wonder if this mysterious friend she brought with her might have edged her on or something?

[Arondell]

 

I am a parent and I can say I could never, ever even consider the possibility of harming one of my children. Even if they are supposed to grow into a mass massacre weapon, I would still not do it. They are kids.

 

I'm almost hesitant to bring it up due to the depressing nature of it but there are cultures in the real world that don't put such a high value on the individual lives of their children over that of the family or group.    I see it as entirely possible that Shallan's mother could have had a belief in something that was strong enough to make her feel she had to kill her own daughter. 

[Betrail]

I noticed the same thing.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/14498-wor-spoilers-when-did-shallans-bond-start/

My guess is that before her mothers death her childhood was still bad, this will be her 5th truth.

Ah sorry I didn't find that topic when I was searching.

Possible theory could spren while in the cognitive realm be able to have a small investment of precognition, They are from honor/cultivation who has the ability to see into the future, honor not as good but still has a sense for it. And they can start to form a weak bond from the pre cognitive words being spoken? Or at the least they would be able to see who would be able to fit the criteria for bonding before it happens. (wild theory with no proof, and made on the spot)

[sun tzaro]

I'm ashamed that this took me so long. Here's the promised quote I promised earlier, page numbers included since I believe we're all using the same hardcover copy of WoR:

 

 

"Why did she try to kill me, Pattern?" Shallan whispered.

 

"Mmm..."

 

"It started when she found out what I could do." 

 

(1059)

 

 

Now, I believe that Shallan had a positive relationship with her mother, and I believe that was why her mother's attempt to kill her was so deeply hurtful. When Shallan recalls her mother, she always does so in a positive light.

 

When Shallan is walking at the fair, scared and alone:

 

 

What would it be like, to be brave like Helaran? As her mother had been. 

 

(519)

 

When Wit asks her what beauty is, the first words out of her mouth:

 

 

"I... " What was it? "Mother still lives," she found herself whispering, meeting his eyes.

 

(528)

 

If Shallan didn't at least once have a positive relationship with her mother, I don't think her mother's life would factor into her idea of beauty so strongly.

 

Select other parts of the same passage:

 

 

"And we are in the gradens," Shallan continued. "She is speaking to my father, and he is laughing. Laughing and holding her. We are all there, including Helaran. He never left. The people my mother knew... Dreder... never came to our home. Mother loves me. She teaches me philosophy, and she shows me how to draw."

 

(528)

 

Now, you could interpret "Mother loves me" as Shallan suggesting that she wished her mother loved her, because that was not the case in reality - but I think Shallan was just somewhat subconsciously referring to how her last interaction with her mother was not a loving one.

 

 

It is beautiful because it could have been. It should have been. I..."

 

(528)

 

"It should have been" strongly implies that if Shallan's powers hadn't become apparent, then she would (most likely) have had a happy relationship with her father and her mother and her brothers. After her final revelation:

 

 

"I hate you, " she whispered, staring into her mother's dead eyes.

 

"I know." Pattern buzzed softly. "Eventually, you will kill me, and you will have your revenge."

 

"I don't want revenge. I want my family"

 

Family is very important to Shallan. She loves her brothers. She loved her father, even after he became a monster. I think she loved her mother, too. There had to have been a time when Shallan was part of a happy family in the past, otherwise she wouldn't desire it so. 

 

 

Shallan's mother.... must have been a very abnormal person.

 

 

Not to single out you specifically, but a lot of the responses in this thread seem to be along the lines of "Shallan's mother was a psychotic/evil person".

 

I think it's a bit too early to assume that. In WoK, and through most of WoR, Lin, Shallan's father, appears to be an abusive monster. He murders Shallan's mother and her lover, and then sings to Shallan while he carries her out of the room. Psychotic, right? As the years progress, he beats and maims his servants and his sons. No one wants to make business deals with such an evil monster. Highprince Valam himself sends his bastard son to investigate Lin's crimes. Lin's own sons despise him for what he has done.

 

Except Lin didn't kill his wife. He fought to save Shallan from Dreder and his own wife. He watched his own daughter murder twice, and then after that he held her in his arms and sang her a lullaby while he took her away from the bloody carnage she had wrought. He then goes on to completely shoulder the blame for a crime he did not commit. Yes, Lin did become an abusive monster. But he's not an abnormal person. He's a normal person. No normal person can survive being hated by their own family and by nearly everyone else they know, for a crime they did not commit, and avoid becoming twisted inside.

 

Lin appeared an irredeemable monster until we found out the full extent of what happened in Shallan's past. Sanderson doesn't write too many black-and-white characters. I don't think Shallan's mother will be any different.

 

 

I see it as entirely possible that Shallan's mother could have had a belief in something that was strong enough to make her feel she had to kill her own daughter. 

 

 

Kaladin has a very close relationship to Syl. I'd go so far as to say a familial one.

 

So we do have a precedent for parents murdering their children.

 

Over three hundred Radiants, the heroes of honor that we, here on the 17th shard, love to praise and fawn upon, believed in something so strongly that they were willing to murder their closest friends and companions.

 

 

I am a parent and I can say I could never, ever even consider the possibility of harming one of my children. Even if they are supposed to grow into a mass massacre weapon, I would still not do it. They are kids. Their future is not set yet and these is nothing that would make me change my views on this. 

 

Evidently the Radiants of old would have disagreed with you.

 

 

Speaking of, I think I've found something. I'd start a topic on it, but I feel that I don't have enough content to warrant a full discussion.

 

IIRC, we've never seen Shallan speak the first oath. 

 

 

"You spoke oaths."

 

Shallan froze.

 

Life before Death... the words drifted toward her from the shadows of her past. A past she would not think of.

 

 

Shallan still has secrets. I sense a 4th or 5th Truth right there.

Edited November 14, 2014 by sun tzaro

[Twenty@20 he/him]

.

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Lin appeared an irredeemable monster until we found out the full extent of what happened in Shallan's past. Sanderson doesn't write too many black-and-white characters. I don't think Shallan's mother will be any different.

Kaladin has a very close relationship to Syl. I'd go so far as to say a familial one.

So we do have a precedent for parents murdering their children.

Over three hundred Radiants, the heroes of honor that we, here on the 17th shard, love to praise and fawn upon, believed in something so strongly that they were willing to murder their closest friends and companions.

Evidently the Radiants of old would have disagreed with you.

.

.

You have made a very emotional and convincing point, I believe. Radiants killing their spren for whatever reason is as dark a spot as Shallan's mother trying to kill her. Personally, I would not be quick to judge any of them Edited November 14, 2014 by Twenty@20

[kaellok he/him]

Great post, sun tzaro, and you offer a very compelling explanation for it; despite this, I still disagree with you re: Shallan's mother 

 

You don't have to have had some positive experiences to wish that they had happened.  Example: Shallan could have seen the relationship that other kids had with their parents, with a loving mother, and wished that she could have had the same.  That if her mother had loved her, then she would never have tried to kill Shallan.  This means Shallan would never have killed her mother, her father would never have shouldered the blame and become an abusive, twisted monster that destroyed the rest of the family.  

 

Shallan knew that her father loved her, through word and deed; if her mother had as well, the other bad things wouldn't have occurred.  Since it's still unclear on how exactly people are chosen for the Radiant bond, it's also quite possible that Shallan was broken enough entirely because of her mother's lack of love.  Which would mean that if her mother had loved her, then she would never have bonded Pattern, become a Radiant, and forced to murder her parents or die.

 

And it's also possible for a parent to care at first, and then not later.  Caring for children is hard work, after all.  From personal experience, I'd say that I had a warm, loving family environment until I was around 8, and then my parents just stopped caring.  There were four of us kids, after all, which is even more work.  I can quite honestly say that beauty, to me, in my life, would have been my parents staying in love with each other.  Perhaps when I was 8 is when they realized that they weren't.  Literally every single aspect of my life has been fundamentally shaped and altered because of that, and the same can be said of my siblings as well.  If there is one thing in the past that I could alter, that would be it.  (And I'm against meddling in my own time-line, because I happen to like who I have managed to become in spite of everything, but God it hurt and took time.)

 

Shallan had to have spoken the First Ideal with intent for a reason, and the really, really obvious one is the parent that didn't love her--maybe even one that seemed to for a while, like you suggest, but then changed for whatever reasons.   

 

Again, though, you wrote a very compelling post, and made me really, really seriously consider that I might be wrong.  (And as an avid member of the Assuredness movement, it's against my nature to admit that too readily  )

[lol_king he/him]

In the past there were hundreds or maybe even thousands of radiants, if including squires, who i think are basically radiants in training. And i seriously doubt each and every one of them went through a traumatic event like murdering their own parents, losing their sibling, being made a slave etc. And then we have a radiant inviting dalinar (in his flashback) to Urithiru, he didn't know if he was broken or not, but he thought there was a chance he might become a radiant, maybe by attaching him as squire to a radiant. So, being broken to that level probably wasn't a requirement, it certainly helped but wasn't necessary.

Also pattern says her lies are what drew her, not her brokenness. Maybe he's referring to her art, or maybe she lies to herself that her mother loves her, but being broken in and of itself is not what drew him.

Edited November 16, 2014 by lol_king