Theorycrafting

[Nitpicking]

So, Cosmere theorizing. In my head, that means arcanist stuff, not plot guessing (but that's a very valid topic).

First round: I propose that there is an entire type of magic Brandon hasn't revealed yet.

See, humans have Investiture. All sapients do, because the soul is Investiture. We know that losing some of that Investiture can slow healing, make one depressed and vulnerable to disease, etc.

So, I speculate that all humans (and all living things, and maybe even all things) have a Connection to the Spiritual Realm and are always drawing a very small flow of Investiture into the Physical, which gets used to maintain their existence and then returns to the Spiritual.

I further assert that somewhere in the Cosmere, people have developed mystical meditations and exercises that expand their tiny personal Perpendicularities, allowing them to work what we'd call "magic" without Connecting to a Cognitive entity (like a Shardbearer or Yoki-Hijo) or Spiritual entity (like an allomancer). In fact, I speculate further that we've seen such people ... if we've read Dragonsteel Prime.

This implies that, say, a Drab could heal from their soul wound if they knew these techniques and lived long enough. It wouldn't occur to Endowment to spread that knowledge. She's all about gifting, not self-improvement.

I speculate far too much when I say that if these people become savants, they become less and less material, superficially similar to the way we've seen a Soulcasting savant turn into air but not actually the same.

[The White Drake]

10 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

First round: I propose that there is an entire type of magic Brandon hasn't revealed yet.

Just one?

10 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

See, humans have Investiture. All sapients do, because the soul is Investiture. We know that losing some of that Investiture can slow healing, make one depressed and vulnerable to disease, etc.

So, I speculate that all humans (and all living things, and maybe even all things) have a Connection to the Spiritual Realm and are always drawing a very small flow of Investiture into the Physical, which gets used to maintain their existence and then returns to the Spiritual.

This is confirmed. Though it is not necessary for survival.

Spoiler

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

Spoiler

karsen (paraphrased)

What is the difference between innate investiture and kinetic investiture?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Kinetic investiture is energy/power that is being actively (currently) used. Innate investiture is when a person is a conduit to/from the Spiritual realm.

Edited 21 hours ago by The White Drake

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

This is confirmed. Though it is not necessary for survival.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

  Reveal hidden contents

karsen (paraphrased)

What is the difference between innate investiture and kinetic investiture?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Kinetic investiture is energy/power that is being actively (currently) used. Innate investiture is when a person is a conduit to/from the Spiritual realm.

That's contradicted by Sunlit Man.

The souls of most people measure about 1-3 BEUs.

A BEU is a definitive quantity of investiture, not a measurement of investiture flow.

[The White Drake]

38 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's contradicted by Sunlit Man.

The souls of most people measure about 1-3 BEUs.

A BEU is a definitive quantity of investiture, not a measurement of investiture flow.

...those are direct WoBs. You can't really argue with them.

Besides, you can measure the energy in a human body, yet we still get new energy from food. I imagine being a conduit to the Spiritual Realm for a person is rather similar.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

...those are direct WoBs. You can't really argue with them.

By direct WoB Oathbringer is an Honorblade.

Brandon himself has said that WoBs are not 100% accurate and are beneath books when it comes to canon.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

Besides, you can measure the energy in a human body, yet we still get new energy from food. I imagine being a conduit to the Spiritual Realm for a person is rather similar.

That's not really the same thing as described above.

A direct flow of energy is described by a unit of measurement/unit of time. Such as 10 Joules/hour.

Whereas eating something is a specific quantity of energy such as 200 calories.

Souls are measured in the former as 1-3 BEU, depending on what planet they are from.

However souls don't need a special connection to the SR at all as they are within the spiritual realm to start with.

Edited 18 hours ago by Frustration

[Asriel He/Him]

I would argue that BEUs are an energy measurement. Investiture, by its nature, doesn't like staying in the Physical. It flows back to the Spiritual unless it's captured in a flawless container. Now, I don't think that humans are flawless containers for Investiture, even for Investiture that is specifically attuned to them.
So what makes sense to me is that a person with innate investiture has a 'programmed' amount of Investiture flowing through them at all times, set in their SDNA*- which is how you can steal Breaths with hemalurgy. It's a part of/attatched to your soul (we have WoBs and evidence that proves that).

*I would think of it almost as a specific hole in the "bucket" of investiture that is a spiritweb.

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

By direct WoB Oathbringer is an Honorblade.

Brandon himself has said that WoBs are not 100% accurate and are beneath books when it comes to canon.

That's a very convenient argument. His statements on this topic are clearly well thought out, and spread across multiple WoBs. You'd need a direct contradiction, not your interpretation.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That's not really the same thing as described above.

A direct flow of energy is described by a unit of measurement/unit of time. Such as 10 Joules/hour.

Whereas eating something is a specific quantity of energy such as 200 calories.

Souls are measured in the former as 1-3 BEU, depending on what planet they are from.

However souls don't need a special connection to the SR at all as they are within the spiritual realm to start with.

The spiritweb isn't the same as a person's innate Investiture, as he said a Drab lacks that Investiture and they are still alive. But the two are doubtless connected.

A person has 1-3 BEUs normally. However Investiture is, like calories, finite and expandable. We can measure the amount of calories in our bodies, but as it gets used up, we need to go get more. Similarly, having a connection to the Spiritual Realm means the Investiture a person has doesn't simply run out at some point in their life. It's a flow, technically, but you're not running 1-3 BEUs through the body each moment. You're at 1-3 BEUs and restoring that which gets used up naturally. Just as you can say a bucket holds X amount of water, but are still replacing that which evaporates in the sun.

Edited 17 hours ago by The White Drake

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, The White Drake said:

That's a very convenient argument. His statements on this topic are clearly well thought out, and spread across multiple WoBs. You'd need a direct contradiction, not your interpretation.

1. Your interpretation is not at all what those WoBs say in the first place.

2. You are presenting a patchwork of different WoBs and trying to stitch them together to say something, that's not a direct or definitive statement.

3. They are not well thought out, and if you look closely at the second WoB there, you will notice that it is a paraphrase and not a direct quote.

10 hours ago, The White Drake said:

The spiritweb isn't the same as a person's innate Investiture, as he said a Drab lacks that Investiture and they are still alive. But the two are doubtless connected.

A drab does have investiture, just far less of it than normal people in the cosmere.

I'm assuming you are going to reference this WoB,

Spoiler

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

 

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

 

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

 

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

 

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224/#e6881

But it is contradicted by others that are more recent

Spoiler

Questioner

So I have heard that it is harder to Push a Shardblade with Allomancy than it is a normal sword.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

Questioner

Is that true of both living and dead Shardblades?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

Questioner

Equally?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, no.

 

Questioner

Okay, so it's even more difficult to Push one alive.

 

Brandon Sanderson

The thing-- An Invested object is more difficult with any of the magics. So, for instance, even a Feruchemical metalmind is going to be harder. Depends on how much it is Invested, and things like that. But, y'know, it can range from you barely notice it or don't even notice it to "Wow, that's hard to Push on". Same for a Hemalurgical spike, depending on how much Investiture is left over, how long has it been outside of a body, and things like that. Same thing Pushing on something inside a person's body, their Investiture is going to interfere with it.

Same thing, when you read White Sand, why a person slapping their hand through someone's stream of sand can throw off the entire creation of the sand mastery. It's just-- There's interference patterns, and things like that.

 

Questioner

And is that true of a Drab as well? Does the body affect--

 

Brandon Sanderson

The Drab is going to have less.

 

Questioner

So they just have less Investiture, but they still have some natural Investiture?

 

Brandon Sanderson

They do still have some. They've lost their Breath but that isn't the entirety of the Investiture inside of them.

Almost all of the times we see Vin--in fact I think every time--we see Vin, or someone in the Mistborn books, Pushing or Pulling on an Invested metal they are either drawing on the mist or they're Elend or the Lord Ruler who have the enhanced power, or something like that. Or it's a duralumin Push, or its one of the Inquisitors who's had a spike-- y'know, and things like that, that've-- And so it's not something that you see done very often in the Mistborn books.

 

Rubix

I can actually confirm that's correct.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Oh you guys looked it up?

 

Rubix

I checked.

 

Brandon Sanderson

I mean it can be done. And depending on Investiture it can be not even that hard to do but--

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7222

Spoiler

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

 

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is.

 

Questioner

Is that gonna be the answer for all of these?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Probably!

 

Questioner

How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy?

 

Brandon Sanderson

A spike charged with Hemalurgy... that depends on...

 

Questioner

Not in a person.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on how strong, yeah, a spike is moderately, (in the realm of these kinds of things) moderately easy to push on because a spike does not rip off very much Investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and less it over time. I would put that at the bottom, with the top being very hard, to be one of the easier things.

 

Questioner

How about a metalmind that is full?

 

Brandon Sanderson

That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard.

 

Questioner #2

A Shardblade is [inaudible] actually metal? [metal]-ish?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah.

 

Questioner

So that'd be the same for Shardplate too?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder.

 

Questioner

A Half-shard?

 

Brandon Sanderson

A Half-shard shield? That's gonna be moderate.

 

Questioner

Nightblood? I imagine that being hard.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Hard, of all the things you've listed, that is going to be the hardest. Far beyond even a Sharblade.

 

Questioner

Far beyond metal inside a person? 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes. Depending on how invested the person is.

 

Questioner

If somebody was invested as much as Nightblood?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, for instance the God King, right. At the end with all those Breaths. Pushing something inside of him, getting through all of that? Gonna be real hard. Average person on Scadrial? You've seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier.

 

Questioner

That was my next one, or no, sorry not a drab. A lifeless?

 

Brandon Sanderson

A Lifeless, yeah. Even... yeah. Lifeless are kind of weird because they've had their soul leave but then they've had a replacement stuck in in the form of Breath which leaves them in a very weird position compared to a drab which has had part of their Investiture ripped away but a majority remains, so, anyways. I'm going to give you one more. Pick your favorite.

 

Questioner

A soulstamped piece of metal?

 

Brandon Sanderson

A soulstamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of Investiture going on in a soulstamp.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299

 

10 hours ago, The White Drake said:

A person has 1-3 BEUs normally. However Investiture is, like calories, finite and expandable. We can measure the amount of calories in our bodies, but as it gets used up, we need to go get more. Similarly, having a connection to the Spiritual Realm means the Investiture a person has doesn't simply run out at some point in their life. It's a flow, technically, but you're not running 1-3 BEUs through the body each moment. You're at 1-3 BEUs and restoring that which gets used up naturally. Just as you can say a bucket holds X amount of water, but are still replacing that which evaporates in the sun.

What on earth consumes their investiture?

Not to mention the things we should be seeing if that were the case. People should be able to recover breaths over long periods of time. Or if that connection that constantly infused them was part of a breath than people with a lot should slowly gain some.

Recovering from Shardblade wounds should be possible for normal people, and a lot more.

[Nitpicking]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What on earth consumes their investiture?

Not to mention the things we should be seeing if that were the case. People should be able to recover breaths over long periods of time. Or if that connection that constantly infused them was part of a breath than people with a lot should slowly gain some.

Recovering from Shardblade wounds should be possible for normal people, and a lot more.

As mentioned upthread, Investiture leaks out of things. What "consumes" it is existence, in this model.

I actually said in the threadstarter, if a person lived forever they could heal from becoming Drab, and that my proposed mystical practices to expand the tiny personal Perpendicularity could speed up the process. Healing Shardblade wounds would, of course, take even more Investiture but in principle be possible. It would be the Surge of Progression (or gold feruchemy) but slower.

[The White Drake]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

1. Your interpretation is not at all what those WoBs say in the first place.

2. You are presenting a patchwork of different WoBs and trying to stitch them together to say something, that's not a direct or definitive statement.

WoB 1: Everyone we see has innate Investiture.

WoB 2: Innate Investiture is when someone is a conduit to the Spiritual Realm.

It's clear as day. I don't know how you can argue otherwise.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

3. They are not well thought out, and if you look closely at the second WoB there, you will notice that it is a paraphrase and not a direct quote.

That's not an argument.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

But it is contradicted by others that are more recent

The Investiture they have left could simply not be considered innate.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

What on earth consumes their investiture?

What drains a battery left out for years? Investiture follows the laws of physics. If it does anything- like help people recover from sickness, or even living their day to day lives- that's expending energy, and it's finite.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not to mention the things we should be seeing if that were the case. People should be able to recover breaths over long periods of time. Or if that connection that constantly infused them was part of a breath than people with a lot should slowly gain some.

Recovering from Shardblade wounds should be possible for normal people, and a lot more.

Drabs don't have that innate Investiture, so that point is moot. And it wouldn't help recover from a Shardblade wound, I don't know where you got that idea. It's a little like saying eating enough food will let you recover a lost arm. However they can gain some very small amount of Investiture. New Breaths don't form, but it is stated that Breaths vary in strength and healthiness. Much like the health of a person, to continue our calories analogy.

But we DO see things regarding this. In the Sunlit Man, actually. They give 'heat' (Investiture) to others, but are not left permanently lessened by so doing. If you look at Breath you know it must renew itself or it would run out after a certain amount of Awakened movement.

I don't know why I argue though. The WoBs spell it out exactly. If you refuse to accept that, you're not going to listen to anything I have to say.

So, to be frank, I’m not going to debate it further here. We can make a new topic if you want. Sorry for derailing your topic @Nitpicking.

Edited 1 hour ago by The White Drake